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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 103. Go back in thread:
Posted by kid47 on January 30, 2007, at 15:26:00
In reply to like others we believe alesta's intent as good, posted by zenhussy on January 30, 2007, at 15:00:32
Ditto for me
Peace
Kid> foot in mouth disease can run rampant....when others at this site have engaged in communication that resulted in misunderstandings and passionate feelings for or against we've witnessed ppl coming to the defence of the orig. poster.
>
> we'd like to offer up that over the years alesta has posted much support and much infomation that has been of great value...
>
> she's written about having a very hard time currently....
>
> we're surprised by the responses to a very dear poster who has expressed having a rough go of things.....
>
> aimster....all our love and support dearie
>
> we've seen other posters who've posted that they're certain of the intent of the orig. poster (not sure how that is possible but we'll give it a whirl)....nothing different in this case 'cept we might be minority....but we're a VOCAL minority! ;)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 19:08:52
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again... » one woman cine, posted by ClearSkies on January 30, 2007, at 14:55:56
> > I realize honesty is not necessarily important in bob's world, civility is - but honesty and civility are a two way street.I agree. But even when someone else is not civil or not honest, we still have to be in order to stay within site guidelines. And there is also the notify administrators form for use when appropriate.
>
>
> I think it's a challenge for us to figure out a way to discuss these sensitive issues while conforming to the civility guidelines. I do, however, think it's entirely possible to be both honest and civil.
>
> CSI think CS is exactly right. It's a challenge, but not impossible. I think in many cases it's possible to be honest as long as one expresses that from their own perspective. It's when we structure our words in such a way as what we feel or believe or think is the object or in some way is expressed as a result of someone else's actions or words that we cross the civility line.
No one can argue with me if I say I'm angry about X. They could certainly try, but only I know what my internal state is. If anyone takes offense at my internal state, well, they are certainly crossing some boundary, eh? So even if I'm expressing a negative reaction or feeling, as long as I own it and don't make it secondary to someone else, it's pretty much going to be okay. Note, this doesn't mean you can say "I feel" in front of an opinion or thought, etc. if that opinion or thought could lead others to feel accused or put down. For example, I can't say, "I feel X is a moron." That's not a feeling, and it's not civil.
Along those lines, saying "I feel X is mocking me" won't fly. What you're really feeling is something else. Mocked? Angry? Hurt? Embarrassed? Those are the feelings to be expressed, not a reflection of what the other person is doing. Not everyone will want to express those feelings, which is fine.
But anyway, some advice, lengthy--sorry, for talking about difficult issues while remaining civil.
I guess the simplest I can get about this is to suggest this: Ask yourself before submitting your post how you would react if you read it and it was about you. Could you feel accused or hurt, etc.?
Anywhoo, I think this is an important topic, I agree with Glydin about the importance of boundaries, and I hope that some of this was helpful to someone.
namaste
gg
Posted by Declan on January 30, 2007, at 19:20:15
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 19:08:52
This is the most fun I've had all day, which isn't saying a lot, but still, I'm not going to be choosy.
So that's NOT a feeling. I shall try to remember. What about 'I feel perpetual low level scorn and I need an outlet'? No, that's not a feeling either. 'I'd like to attack you but I don't want to be punished'? No good either. How about 'I'm feeling jumpy and intensely irritated and you make it worse'?
I don't think I have any idea how to be civil. Please don't recommend a civilty buddy. It wouldn't be fair to them.
Posted by Phillipa on January 30, 2007, at 20:53:45
In reply to I feel X is a moron » gardenergirl, posted by Declan on January 30, 2007, at 19:20:15
Declan no you can't say you make . Restate the statement please. Love Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 21:52:32
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 19:08:52
Posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 22:18:04
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 19:08:52
GG...i was trying to express my feelings about their manipulations...if i was talking to a therapist it would have been acceptable to say I felt disgust. In fact, i would be encouraged to do so. I suppose i can't say it here because there are personality-disordered people here. But...should we protect *them*? Should we shield them from their actions? Or is it perhaps beneficial in some way for them to see the pain some of them may cause via their behavior? my next question is...why are we always protecting the perpetrators???? and not those they victimize? perhaps i am going out on a limb at this point. perhaps i am wrong. i am just tired of not having a voice...the perpetrators always seem to have a voice. i am tired of being silenced. and....like i said i could possibly be wrong. but i try to always be there for people here and...gee...one outburst of possibly inappropriate emotion and they will throw you to the wolves. i think what those people posted says more about them than what i posted says about me. i'm tired and not even sure any of this makes sense. i have serious IRL issues to attend to so...y'all have at me some more if it pleases you. i know a couple women who would love nothing more than to go at me a few rounds, regardless of the topic. enjoy, guys...i have my hands full right now. lecture me some more...whatever...i love being treated like a child....I am exiting this thread. i am still quite angry. i think it would be best for me to just leave right now. i am not used to being angry and am unsure how to deal with it. i know my friends here will always understand. that is one thing i can count on.
oh and thanks to glydin, zen, and kid...i love and respect you guys.
Amy
Posted by wishingstar on January 30, 2007, at 22:26:01
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder » gardenergirl, posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 22:18:04
I'm feeling hurt in many ways because of some of the things in this thread. Just because I have a borderline diagnoses does not make me bad or evil. Just because I have a borderline diagnosis doesnt mean I'm not aware that I'm hurting people. But I'm trying my best. 7 years of therapy later, I'm still trying my best. No one is perfect.
Posted by sleepygirl on January 30, 2007, at 22:30:25
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder » gardenergirl, posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 22:18:04
so I guess you might be annoyed at the fact that you can't point out what you know is there??
if that's the case...that bothers me toojust the personality disorder label I find as tricky...we all have tendencies, our defenses, many of them end up alienating lots of people
it's a minefield
...anyway come back soon, no wolves here
Posted by wishingstar on January 30, 2007, at 22:59:29
In reply to im feeling..., posted by wishingstar on January 30, 2007, at 22:26:01
I've reconsidered. It's silly for me to be getting upset over this and I think I'm taking it too personally. My diagnosis is not who I am, and even if borderline is a correct diagnosis for me, it doesnt mean anything about who I am as a person. Seeing as how I've never met anyone on this site in person or had any extended contacts with anyone, there's just no way anyone could judge me as any of those things I mentioned before. And if they did, that wouldnt be my problem.. it'd be theirs. Because I know I'm okay in that way. Self-worth and such is another issue, but I know I'm not a terrible manipulative person.
Just for the record, I'm not trying to say anything about any posters in particular or as a group in the statement about judging. I'm not saying anyone is judging me. I'm just saying IF they were to... etc.
I'm sorry for everyone who has had bad experiences though. And sorry for that little burst of over-sensitivity.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 23:05:47
In reply to Re: im feeling... nevermind, posted by wishingstar on January 30, 2007, at 22:59:29
Posted by tofuemmy on January 31, 2007, at 6:11:25
In reply to those with personality disorders...., posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 8:58:39
I do get that Alesta was upset when she posted. I've posted some really dopey things over the years. I think most people can recall something they said or wrote which they regret....I'm assuming the regret part I guess.
I think we all have the ability to impact others negatively. People who are depressed impact others (we've seen the ads! someone walk that dog), as do people with anxiety disorders, etc. I have personally been VERY negatively impacted by the symptoms of someone else's depression. In this aspect, I don't see any difference between Axis I stuff and Axis II stuff.
Em
Posted by madeline on January 31, 2007, at 7:07:05
In reply to those with personality disorders...., posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 8:58:39
You know, I hear you and understand where you are coming from.
My mom is bipolar with mania that manifests as extreme aggression and depression that is suicidal.
When I was a child she used to tell me to go get the gun so she could kill herself because I was such a bad child.
When she was finally diagnosed and treated she garnered a lot of attention. Nobody seemed to care how her illness affected me. Nobody. If I tried to say something, I always heard "your mom is sick and we need to be very nice to HER".
Those people who care for, are friends with or interact with the mentally ill are so often ignored - yet mental illness affects so many people in negative ways.
It is enough to make anyone a little quick on the trigger if you live in it day in and day out.
I completely understand the anger, the frustration.
To me the key to tolerance is being very centered with yourself, knowing that the person isn't doing this on purpose and setting boundaries.
Now, having said that I think it is almost impossible to do when you are close to the person and they have the capacity to hurt you.
There is scant support for people who have to live with the mentally ill (either literally or figuratively), but it is out there.
I would check in your area to see if there is a group, or if you are in therapy this is certainly something to talk to your therapist about. They are specifically trained to deal with mental illness anc could offer you some specific survival tips to help you.
Please come back when feel safe to do so.
Maddie
Posted by sunnydays on January 31, 2007, at 7:30:49
In reply to Re: those with personality disorders...., posted by tofuemmy on January 31, 2007, at 6:11:25
I agree with emmy, but I would even extend it to people who don't have mental illness. There are just certain traits people have that can really hurt me. And no matter how hard I try, I'm sure at some point I've hurt someone else. But I'm not sure it's fair to single out people because they have a personality disorder. I mean.... just as an example... avoidant personality disorder is basically extreme shyness if I remember correctly. It's hard to make generalizations. I'm sorry you were hurt by someone, alesta.
sunnydays
Posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder » gardenergirl, posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 22:18:04
I just wanted to say how sorry I am now that I've calmed down. I'm living in a mental war zone right now, and the rage and devastating put-downs and humiliations and hurts are starting to crush my soul...i've been through this sort of thing throughout my life but for some reason right now i am reacting like this. maybe it's the level of magnitude. anyway, i am surprised at myself, too. i'm sorry. i don't know why i got so uncontrollably angry. i think i need to release it in a safe way and where it's ok to do so. maybe similate writing letters to abusers on the computer.
i just really think we are adults here...give us pbc's but the lecturing by deputies feels...i don't know. sometimes there is just a lot of emotion that a person is experiencing, and needs to be left to come to things on their own. what i'm saying is lecturing them on how they should *think* when they are *feeling* irrational possibly is not necessarily...i don't know...i know it's the babble way but it feels like you're being lectured as if a parent to a child. i don't know, maybe i'm wrong on this...just something to ponder, though...
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 7:51:11
In reply to sorry...will go work on self..., posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
STOP APOLOGIZING!!!!
I mean that in the most civil way possible:)))
It's OK. You did nothing terribly wrong (it was a *heat of the moment* thing) - I understand your frustration and it seems like so do others.
Take care.
Posted by ClearSkies on January 31, 2007, at 7:58:23
In reply to sorry...will go work on self..., posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
>
> i just really think we are adults here...give us pbc's but the lecturing by deputies feels...i don't know. sometimes there is just a lot of emotion that a person is experiencing, and needs to be left to come to things on their own. what i'm saying is lecturing them on how they should *think* when they are *feeling* irrational possibly is not necessarily...i don't know...i know it's the babble way but it feels like you're being lectured as if a parent to a child. i don't know, maybe i'm wrong on this...just something to ponder, though...
>
>
>Alesta, I'm sorry if it feels like you've been lectured to. As deputies, it's our duty to remind posters to express themselves civilly, even when we are upset.
I hope that you can see the good intention in our posts.
Thanks,
ClearSkies, poster and deputy
Posted by zazenduckie on January 31, 2007, at 8:26:09
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2007, at 19:08:52
>
Shouldn't this word be written with an asterisk? I personally would prefer that disparaging language not be used but I believe Bob wants it asterisked. I thought that was done automatically.
From Merriam Webster
Main Entry: m*·ron
Pronunciation: 'm*r-"än
Function: noun
Etymology: irregular from Greek mOros foolish, stupid
1 usually offensive : a mildly mentally retarded person
2 : a very stupid person> >
> >
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 9:44:38
In reply to Re: uhhh....)) lets try again..+ a gentle reminder » gardenergirl, posted by alesta on January 30, 2007, at 22:18:04
Not all people with a PD do any of the things you state.
So no, you cannot state you feel disgust with ALL PD people.
You are including *me* in that statement.. I have never victimised, I do not need to be shielded from *my* behaviours,
You are talking about *me*. Yes, that is personal.
You know what, I have my hands pretty full right now. I work, I suffer from what is classed as the most painful condition out there, I do ALOT of voluntary work in trying to brak down the stigmas surrounding PD's, and the fact that ignorant people out there presume so so much about someone with a PD.
You feel angry? Try changing all the wors in your post that say PD to alesta.. then imagine how angry *I* feel right now.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 9:46:22
In reply to alesta » alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 7:51:11
Some of us might like to hear an apology after being told quite how disgusting they are.
*shrugs*
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:50:01
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 9:46:22
I think she has apologized multiple times - how many do *I'm sorry's* do you think will be enough?
I think your point has been made. I'm sorry your hurt.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 31, 2007, at 10:18:26
In reply to sorry...will go work on self..., posted by alesta on January 31, 2007, at 7:41:19
> I just wanted to say how sorry I am now that I've calmed down. I'm living in a mental war zone right now, and the rage and devastating put-downs and humiliations and hurts are starting to crush my soul...i've been through this sort of thing throughout my life but for some reason right now i am reacting like this. maybe it's the level of magnitude. anyway, i am surprised at myself, too. i'm sorry. i don't know why i got so uncontrollably angry. i think i need to release it in a safe way and where it's ok to do so. maybe similate writing letters to abusers on the computer.
Alesta, I'm sorry you find yourself in such a pickle. And I wish that I could offer you more than my words, but that is all I have to give to you, just now.
I'm glad that you're angry, because it gives you the stimulation that can allow you to make changes. Your first post was an enquiry with respect to developing tolerance, and that is a wonderful motive. Energy + motive = opportunity.
Anger is a response to an internal state, and you've successfully identified some triggers. The trick, I think, is to recognize the sequential activation that ends up being identified as anger. It takes time, although that time might seem instantaneous. The mind can learn to observe the sequence itself, and in doing so, time is captured as an experience. The mere act of observing the sequence permits choices to be made. Adaptive choices.
A bit about adaptivity. One of the characteristics that links behaviours to personality disorders is an attribute we assign as being maladaptive. It's about as close as we can manage in describing behaviours critically, without being judgmental. If a behaviour didn't improve the situation, then it's maladaptive. This negative focus, though, keeps us from considering adaptive behaviours. I sense that's what you're asking about. What would be an adaptive behaviour? One which utilizes the activation that you feel from being e.g. humiliated?
I'm going to project a bit, and suggest that Glydin touched on this as well....but frustration is something that interferes with adaptation. Minor annoyances are accumulative. Of course, so are major annoyances. Time again becomes a concern, as the timeliness of acting in an adaptive way is a modulator of the feeling of frustration. Frustration most certainly contributes to anger.
You're absolutely on the money when you speak of seeking release from frustration. That will help you to clear your cognitive world, and perhaps permit you the opportunity to seize time during the sequence from humiliation to anger. It takes practise. It takes even the recognition that the act of seizing time is possible. It is. It's an act of mindfulness. It's observation of self.
Alesta, I'm glad you're at this threshold. Because you can do this. You can make it happen.
Lar
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 10:36:00
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 9:50:01
My point has been made?
I made on post with very few words, and then finally snapped.
I see *one* apology, not numerous ones.
I don't think hurt is the right word.. i work *so* hard to break down stigma around PD, on top of my normal job. I work hard to improve treatment for people with a PD. I put my money where my mouth is and not just sit back and complain.
have I been hurt by friends? Sure I have.. I had one friend try to seriously mess my life up and cause me enormous amounts of grief.. But do I come posting about all blonde women being manipulators? nope. I have many friends with a PD, and yeah, I've had to walk away from a few of those.. just like I have had to walk away from other friendships.. People with bi-polar, people with schizophrenia.
In my eyes it is NEVER acceptable to speak about *any* group of people, just because of a diagnoses.
is your diagnoses one of PD? Might you feel different if it was? No one has the right to say such things about me. No one.
Its fine to be angry.. Its fine for her to discuss her friend and what her friend is doing. It is not OK to call veryone with a diagnoses of a PD disgusting.. too many people believe that already, that we're all just manipulators.
Would everyone be accepting if she had made a statement about "all black people".. or "all jewish people"
No. But, its fine, because its PD people?
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:47:32
In reply to Re: alesta » one woman cine, posted by NikkiT2 on January 31, 2007, at 10:36:00
"In my eyes it is NEVER acceptable to speak about *any* group of people, just because of a diagnoses."
You know, I have made this same statement and have advocated for the same thing. About stigma's and generalizations on this board and in real life.
I was somewhat hurt and shocked by your statement to me. & still kinda shocked by this post. I can see your angry. But I feel it's directed at me - I didn't do or say anything to you so I also feel it is not fair of you at all.
But it's OK, because people do snap - just like Alesta - I try to have compassion for everyone in moments of weakness and frustration.
I have seen numerous apologies from alesta. I can point them if you'd like.
But you never answered my question either - how many apologies will be enough?
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:48:00
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:47:32
Posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:53:21
In reply to Re: alesta, posted by one woman cine on January 31, 2007, at 10:47:32
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20070112/msgs/722857.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20070112/msgs/723149.html
here are the threads where I advcoate for the same exact things you are.
I would like an apology too.
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