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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sleepygirl on August 5, 2006, at 21:05:34
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content?, posted by Estella on August 5, 2006, at 19:08:51
yeah, there's *always* a reason to feel not good enough
Posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 21:14:34
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content?, posted by Estella on August 5, 2006, at 19:08:51
Although if you read the ingredients on the ten cans of spaghetti sauce--you'll find that they're the same can of sauce, with ten different wrappers.
At least in my grocery store.
Maybe that's why we're unhappy-- we keep expecting to have all these amazing, enticing experiences, and when we have them-- they're the same old red dye no. 2-colored corn syrup with unnameable "flavorings" and preservatives.
Jost
Posted by Declan on August 5, 2006, at 21:20:11
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content?, posted by Estella on August 5, 2006, at 19:08:51
The obvious mistake I made with my kids (from lack of confidence) was to give them too much choice. You think at the time you're doing them a favour, offering then all this stuff, but you are really burdening them uneccessarily (pay attention Erich Fromm "Fear of Freedom")
In Hanoi I came across a restaurant with no choice at all, although there was a choice of soft drinks and coca cola (but the country had already gone to the dogs). Good food and no choice. What more could you want?
Posted by Declan on August 5, 2006, at 21:22:47
In reply to Choice and freedom, posted by Declan on August 5, 2006, at 21:20:11
Fear of Freedom was a sort of anarchist/self management text, but Fromm was in the Frankfurt School, wasn't he?
Amazon sucks.
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2006, at 21:42:16
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Estella, posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 21:14:34
I can tell Prego from Ragu any old day. :) And Gundelsheim Barrel Pickles are worth a trip to another store. It only takes one Easter egg rolling to discover that Egglands Best at least have unusually firm healthy shells. Not to mention melon Propel and real French bread that isn't just long thin bread. Who hasn't made a bad day better with some Cherry Garcia ice cream?
I have amazing enticing food experiences every day. All I need is some real French bread of my favorite brand and some fresh butter.
I remember the days of only three broadcast channels. And no fresh pasta, just one brand of dried pasta. And only Red Delicious apples in the produce aisle and American Beauty butter in the dairy section.
Choice is a beautiful thing and never makes me one whit unhappy.
Posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 22:01:00
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2006, at 21:42:16
Ummm blackberries , or blueberries, or strawberrie, cantaloupe, watermelon the list is endless in the summer. I like choices. Love Phillipa
Posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 22:14:51
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2006, at 21:42:16
Maybe it's just cole slaw. I've been looking for some for about three weeks.
Tried the deli counter at the D'Agostino's at 110th St., a small deli at 113th St. called Milano, a really good deli at 89th called Barney Greenglass, and one other deli. The coleslaw from Greenglass wasn't bad, but made me sick, possibly from having been a bit old.
I also looked at coleslaw salad dressing-- of which I found four different brands at a Gristedes, two of them regular shelved salad dressing, two supposedly "homemade" and refrigerated in the salad section. The ingredients of these bottled dressings were identical: the exact same ingredients, in the same order, literally--beginning with "corn syrup."
I begin to wonder if they're all made by the same outfit.
Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I have the strong feeling none of them would have tasted decent. Since when is the main ingredient in coleslaw "corn syrup"?
Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on August 5, 2006, at 22:42:32
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Dinah, posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 22:14:51
You are being rightfully suspicious
There has been a documented increase in the use of corn syrup especially the notoriously unhealthy "high fructose kind" as an ingredient in U.S processed foods. In Canada many similar products are sweetened with Sugar.
It's largely political.
Corn is a subsidised crop in the U.S
it subsidizez corn farmers, while propping up sugar prices and limiting imports, as well as blockading Cuba (and its sugar)
And if you know all this already, as is quite likely, ulp..sorry.
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2006, at 22:48:27
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Dinah, posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 22:14:51
:)
I'll have to admit to not knowing the ingredients of cole slaw since I am not a huge fan, but I doubt grandma had any corn syrup on hand.
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2006, at 22:57:18
In reply to Re: Are people in Rwanda happy and content? » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on August 5, 2006, at 22:42:32
We in Louisiana are happy to promote the use of 100% cane sugar. ;)
Posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 22:58:11
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Dinah, posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 22:14:51
Jost you're in NYC. I used to go to those delis when I lived in CT. Small world. But cole slaw has corn syrup in it? Ick. Love Phillipa
Posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 23:39:39
In reply to Re: Are people in Rowanda happy and content? » Jost, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 22:58:11
How have we gone from the conflict in the Middle East to coleslaw and Prego vs. Ragu (and are those names too similar for coincidence?) in one thread?
I take back everything I said about the coleslaw.
Let's go back to something philosophical and uplifting, like choice and freedom, or the meaning of life in Ruanda.
Even though the lack of coleslaw on the Upper West Side is something I understand, and the rest isn't, I don't feel comfortable with my role vis a vis our current topic.
Sorry. :(
Jost
Posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 0:12:19
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 23:39:39
> Although if you read the ingredients on the ten cans of spaghetti sauce--you'll find that they're the same can of sauce, with ten different wrappers.
yes indeed lol.
and globalisation (multi-nationals like starbucks, macdonalds, subway, KFC etc) undercut what smaller businesses can do and that leads to... close of small business and ultimately less choice.
Andy Warhol took Coke as a symbol of equality. The Coke that the Queen and Bush and movie stars drink is the same as the Coke that the bum on the streets (so to speak) drinks.
Advertising has a lot to answer for. Implicit messages of how we need Coke or make-up or this detergent or that brand of spaghetti sauce to be... Happy.
The pursuit of happiness...
I like the eastern ideal of contentment.
Choice... At what cost? I worry about that too... I worry about the exploitation of third world labour to bring you that choice...
I'm not sure that people with religion tend to be happier...
But I agree that a sense of community can impact significantly on happiness. Religon can be one way to access that sense of community...
But small communities can have downsides too... Less tolerance of difference etc...
Posted by Declan on August 6, 2006, at 2:54:18
In reply to Re: the pursuit of happiness vs contentment, posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 0:12:19
'I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me', but all of the others are fine.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2006, at 5:23:14
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Jost on August 5, 2006, at 23:39:39
I believe it wasn't so far off field, since the availability of choice was proposed as the downfall of western society and the happiness therein. I happen to disagree.
I also find it hard to believe struggle and hardship, the increased possibility of losing ones' loved ones to preventable diseases, famine, or war somehow makes one happier.
I think I reject the concept that Western civilization and even materialism breeds unhappiness.
I was just saying so lightly.
I could say so less lightly if you like.
There's no virtue in suffering. There's no romance in poverty. My great great however greats who lived in the coal mines and were likely to die there weren't inherently happier than I am. My even greater greats who watched their villages burn over the fights of their feudal lords didn't have a lock on happiness either. All of them were at the mercy of exterior forces. None of them had the luxury of choice. They probably felt impotently angry at the vagaries of fate and the people in power who regarded them as objects, and ones not nearly as valuable as their horses or dogs. I don't think that breeds contentment.
I don't think it's *right* to think of the ills of modern western society in anywhere near the same terms of a country with say 20% infant mortality rates and adults living on starvation level, famines, plagues, a government so corrupt that international aid to the peoples get diverted (not that that doesn't happen here, but at least there is some basic safety net), civil wars, genocide.
There likely are happy people in those circumstances. Life goes on everywhere. People fall in love and get married and have children and have personal victories large and small. Which is why I brought up disconnection in modern society.
But even then I feel ashamed to even consider in the same thought the idea that I don't know my neighbors' last names as I hop into my nice air conditioned car and drive to tow grocery stores to get my favorite brands, and the plight of the common peoples of third world countries.
I chose to say so lightly, in terms of Prego and Ragu. I'm sorry if you considered that a diversion from the serious nature of this discussion. I shall show proper probity henceforth.
A chastened,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2006, at 5:44:10
In reply to Re: the pursuit of happiness vs contentment, posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 0:12:19
Twasn't me who did the studies on religion and happiness. I just happened to read a reference to them in a psych journal lately. I was speculating on why. If you disagree with the conclusions, you'll have to take it up with the researchers. Certainly I have no great faith in scientific inquiry of any sort, much less about something so subjective.
I've just been listening to "A Short History of Nearly Everything" and my faith in the scientific method is at an all time low. I suppose it's the best we've got.
Posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 11:04:07
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2006, at 5:23:14
Whether there is a correlation between religion (I'm thinking christianity) and happiness is controversial. See for example:
> I believe it wasn't so far off field, since the availability of choice was proposed as the downfall of western society and the happiness therein. I happen to disagree.
I just meant to say that increased choices doesn't necessarily mean increased happiness. There is some evidence to show that past a certain number of choices... more choices seem to actually lead to a decrease in subjective happiness.
> I think I reject the concept that Western civilization and even materialism breeds unhappiness.It seems to breed a certain kind of unhappiness...
is happiness something you persue (seek)
or is happiness something you accept (acknowledge)
?
> There's no virtue in suffering. There's no romance in poverty.But what counts as suffering and what counts as poverty?
Those things can be relative...
Posted by Jost on August 6, 2006, at 15:00:24
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 6, 2006, at 5:23:14
A probity that I salute.
If there is a downfall of Western Civilization, it will likely be caused by what caused the downfall of most civilizations-- some sort of decadence, arrogance, aggression, and coming up against a stronger, more ruthless enemy. Or a society's exhaustion of its natural resource base.
What causes the unhappiness of Western civilization, if it is greater than any other unhappiness? There is a fair correlation, I believe, between happiness and wealth, according to a study I saw recently. However, there are some countries where there's greater happiness without as great wealth as, say, the US. Can't remember which they were, maybe Norway, or Denmark, and another one.
But in general, happiness correlates with a society's wealth.
So I'm pretty sure, in fact, people are happier in the USA or Australia or Britain, or Germany than in Ruanda, or the Congo.
Community can be great, or oppressive. It provides support, a certain type of emotional sustenance, but exerts pressure for conformity to norms, sometimes destructively. I have ambivalent ideas about community-- but I'm pretty comfortable with Declan's approach.
Anyway, I was the convener of the conversation on coleslaw, so I am hereby chastened.
Jost
Posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 18:11:02
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Jost on August 6, 2006, at 15:00:24
> But in general, happiness correlates with a society's wealth.Does that mean the top 10% of the population of the USA have over 60% of the happiness?
That is the way the wealth is distributed...
I think we should be very careful indeed about correlating happiness with wealth...
Sure there is probably a threshold of meeting ones basic needs...
sure
but it is possible to get too much of a good thing
why is it that rich people seem about as f*cked up as the rest of us do you think?
money doesn't buy you happiness...
doesn't anyone believe this anymore?
Posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 18:12:54
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 18:11:02
i wonder how happiness is measured...
self report?
hedonistic pleasure?
why should i care about happiness over contentment?
Posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 18:54:27
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 18:11:02
Estella I do. Look at all the movie stars. And Donald Trump. Love Phillipa
Posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 19:24:36
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa » Estella, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 18:54:27
sorry
Posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 20:32:10
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 19:24:36
What are you sorry about? Love Phillipa
Posted by Jost on August 6, 2006, at 21:47:20
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Estella on August 6, 2006, at 18:11:02
Actually, the study can be argued either way ie that a country's wealth (esp. in terms of health care and education, as well as income) and happiness are correlated, and that a country's wealth is not predictive of the overall happiness of its population.
Health care is apparently the number one predictor of a society's happiness, but overall wealth of a country is often interdependent with that and education, so there's significant correlation
But that's not to say that there aren't happy people in all societies, or that poverty imposes suffering, or wealth assures happiness--
Anyway, this study is just one take on a complex question, which could be analyzed in different ways.
The results and some explanation is on the following site:
http://www.le.ac.uk/pc/aw57/world/sample.html
The USA is 23rd on the list, UK is 41, Rwanda is 163, and Ukraine is 179. China is 82, and Australia 26.
Denmark, Norway, and Austria are all very high; many countries in Africa do very badly, which also unfortunately, is not surprising.
Jost
Posted by Estella on August 7, 2006, at 1:50:42
In reply to Re: people in Rowanda... Dinah, Gabbi-G, Phillipa, posted by Jost on August 6, 2006, at 21:47:20
health / healthcare / education / formal education / wealth (dollar value) are seperate things.
for example:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/9338/culture.htm
> But that's not to say that there aren't happy people in all societies...
indeed.
i guess we are measuring the western ideal of happiness (which oftern is highly correlated with material wealth). that tells us more about the western conception of happiness than anything else imo.
flourishing is related to happiness, sure.
but flourishing doesn't entail 10 brands of spaghetti sauce or a million dollar mansion...
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