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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 67 to 91 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 5, 2006, at 16:11:05
You took the bullet for the rest of us again.
And this is why you don't see as much of me. I just can't take the constant "I took too much of this" or "what if I...." or "have you ever thought of jumping....."
The cliff one really, really got to me. My best friends sister jumped off a cliff.
IT'S NOT FUNNY, AND IT'S NOT FUN TO SPECULATE ABOUT IT!
Thanks again Larry
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:52:22
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on January 5, 2006, at 16:11:05
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:59:21
In reply to THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
> You took the bullet for the rest of us again.
unbelievable...
is it really too much to ask people not to post anything that could lead another person to feel hurt or accused or put down etc?
sorry people are feeling frustrated...
but IMO there is no excuse for lashing out at other people...
there is no excuse for judging them neither.
unbelievable...
i see why it is that sometimes i feel afraid about what people are thinking / feeling about me...
i feel sad sometimes :-(
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:13:57
In reply to THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
That is the reason a lot of people don't post as much. You are definitely not alone w/ how you feel. Unfortunately it seems that babblers can do 100x the amount of good and help others but that 1x they word something against the rules it completely outweighs any help they have given time and time again. I am not saying there should not be rules but sometimes IMO it seems they are way to harsh of a 'punishment' for the 'crime'~just a figure of speech.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:22:24
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:13:57
> Unfortunately it seems that babblers can do 100x the amount of good and help others but that 1x they word something against the rules it completely outweighs any help they have given time and time again.
I don't think it outweighs the help they have given. The help they have given still stands. The person may have benefited from it... It is still there in the archives for others to benefit from...
But that being said...
If therapists can't even manage to be civil (the majority of them in my experience)
Then what hope is there for consumers?
I feel sad :-(
It is not just a matter of wording.
It is not.
As someone who internalised wording such as that I know that it is not just a matter of words when you are on the receiving end.
:-(
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:06
In reply to Re: Just my POV » NikkiT2, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:31:21
In discussion with our lead therapist the other day, she said she has done some of her best work with clients she simply didn't like, and who often simply didn't like her. She said the energy caused by that often breaks more ground than a friendly therapeutic relationship.
And I'm afraid I really don't understand your theory around someone with BPD having to learn to manipulate <I>better</i>. Learn <I>different</i>, yes.. Learn how to do it in a much less damaging manner.
And the same for other damaging behaviours.. Reinforce the positive, safe behaviours, and not the bad, dangerous behaviours.Nikki
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:21
In reply to THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 16:51:42
not "the rest of us" definitely not the rest of us.
I understand that Larry meant well, and I understand the frustration, but if someone reached out to me and then told me helping me made them sick.. I'd be really hurt.
It hurt to read those words.
Maybe you think she deserves to hear it.
I think people were sure I deserved to hear similar things, but you know, I didn't.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:28:13
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:21
> I understand that Larry meant well, and I understand the frustration, but if someone reached out to me and then told me helping me made them sick.. I'd be really hurt.
yep.
> It hurt to read those words.
> Maybe you think she deserves to hear it.
> I think people were sure I deserved to hear similar things, but you know, I didn't.((((Gabbi))))
No, you didn't.
And neither did I.
And neither did Nikki.
Etc etc.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:31:02
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:21
yeah..
(((Alex)))
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:32:05
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 16:59:21
I feel sad a lot of the times now.
I can't go to social anymore. People - caring people - have tried and tried and tried to help.
Is it civil to keep talking about taking too many drugs? Is it civil to "wonder" about jumping off cliffs?
Not to me it isn't. I'm so sorry if I said anything that hurt you - I sure didn't mean to - but I'm really at the end of my rope here.
'nuff said. See ya around on the other boards.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:36:32
In reply to Re: Just my POV, posted by NikkiT2 on January 6, 2006, at 17:24:06
> In discussion with our lead therapist the other day, she said she has done some of her best work with clients she simply didn't like, and who often simply didn't like her.
I wonder what she means by her 'best work'?
Reduction in SI?You would need to operationalise and measure that...
Because to the best of my knowledge... The thought is that you are more likely to help people (have a positive influence in their life) if you actually like them. Or you don't actively dislike them at the very least.I don't know.
How many people over on the psychology board have felt helped by therapists who clearly didn't like them?Anybody?
> She said the energy caused by that often breaks more ground than a friendly therapeutic relationship.
Movement is possible without judgement...
Movement is possible even when you like your clients...
Linehan talks about movement...
Strategies for movement strategies for change
But IMO what would be missing if you didn't like someone is...
Acceptance.And for me...
That was what I really needed. To feel accepted and cared about and like the therapist was on MY side helping me figure out how to help my self. And believing in me when I could not.
> And I'm afraid I really don't understand your theory around someone with BPD having to learn to manipulate <I>better</i>.It all hangs on what you mean by 'manipulate'
(Is 'manipulate' a judgemental term or not?)> Learn <I>different</i>, yes.. Learn how to do it in a much less damaging manner.
Yes. That is learning how to manipulate better. Maximisation of manipulation, minimisation of harm...
> And the same for other damaging behaviours.. Reinforce the positive, safe behaviours, and not the bad, dangerous behaviours.
Absence of reinforcer...
Functions the same as
Presentation of a punisher...One does need to be careful.
Thats all I'm saying.
If you stop reinforcing someone and they don't have alternative behaviours that they are able to exhibit in order to obtain reinforcement...Then you are repeating the invalidating environment which was what was so problematic in the first place.
(gee I hope Linehan never reads my funny memory of her theory)
:-O
;-)
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:39:34
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » wildcard, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:22:24
I see what you are saying that the good they have done still stands but the block prevents them from doing further good and in fact can cause them harm. I do understand where Lar got frustrated and was considered uncivil. My point is that Lar was trying to help and he actually played a huge role in convincing the person to seek help. Not excusing what he said, I still feel that his block is a bit harsh when the good he does weighs against what was said. Now where all the therapist issues have come in I am confused but yes, I have been on the receiving end many times and I understand words hurt. However, 6 weeks is quite awhile when Lar stated himself that he in fact was not well. What about his well being? A PBC would have been IMO suitable as it was apparent he was trying desperately to help this person, not hurt them.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:43:57
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:32:05
> I feel sad a lot of the times now.
((((auntiemel))))
> I can't go to social anymore. People - caring people - have tried and tried and tried to help.
sorry... why can't you go to social?
> Is it civil to keep talking about taking too many drugs? Is it civil to "wonder" about jumping off cliffs?you do know that you don't have to read her posts - right? there is nothing whatsoever about people having to read all the posts on the board. i think we know... well i think we know that she does post those kinds of posts as times. if one is not in the space to read about those kinds of things... then don't.
it doesn't seem to be the posters who don't know her (and thus don't know to avoid what they may find triggering) who are having the greatest problem here. it seems to be the people who have read her posts for a while. who have put a lot of time and energy and effort into caring and trying to help. and i do understand that people feel frustrated sometimes. but when you find yourself feeling frustrated then that is the time to walk away. to stop reading. it doesn't have to be forever. but nobody should ever sacrifice their own mental health in order to help another. that strategy... will come back to bite you on the *ss every time. but it is true that finding the balance... can be an ongoing process.
> I'm so sorry if I said anything that hurt you - I sure didn't mean to - but I'm really at the end of my rope here.i think... you may need to stop reading those posts... read the posts of the posters who you can have some fun with. read the posts of the posters who you know will take care of you for a while.
((((auntiemel))))
i feel sad that there are hurts all round :-(
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:50:39
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:43:57
"> Is it civil to keep talking about taking too many drugs? Is it civil to "wonder" about jumping off cliffs?
you do know that you don't have to read her posts - right? there is nothing whatsoever about people having to read all the posts on the board. i think we know... well i think we know that she does post those kinds of posts as times. if one is not in the space to read about those kinds of things... then don't."
I don't read them. But this was in the subject line. Granted she wasn't the first to put it there, but it was the gist of the post in the first place.
I wouldn't have read this one if Lar hadn't been blocked.
Posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 17:56:26
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:32:05
In my time here, I've begun to learn who is who and recognize the personalities with the posters names. This situation is sucky. It's bothered me as a newcomer, so I can guess it bothers the established people more.
Deneb, if you're lurking, take care of yourself and come back.
Alexandra, thanks for caring and I'm sorry you're sad. But please stick around, I like you.
Larry, I'm sorry this happened, I hope you are strong enough right now to shrug it off. (in a positive way)
The others, Gabbi, Antie mel, the ones whose names I can't remember, (if I go back and look, I'll lose this post) thankyou for the support you've shown one or all of your friends.
I only feel qualified to pipe in because I stuck an extremely strong post right in the middle of this thread. This might not be a perfect place, but it is a good place.
Thank you for listening.
james k
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:58:43
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 17:39:34
> I see what you are saying that the good they have done still stands
thanks.
> but the block prevents them from doing further good
i think the block is INTENDED to prevent them from doing further harm IN THE SENSE of continuing to be uncivil. i think... that that is the intention of the block. to give the poster some time to think about what they said. to think about WHY what they said was considered uncivil. to give them a chance to think about alternative things they could have said. alternative things they could have done. that way... hopefully the person can learn something so that there won't be a repeat. i think... that is the intention of the block. prevention of posting also has the effect that they are prevented from posting helpful posts too. yes, it does. but i think that is a conseqence that isn't really intended although it is true that it is a consequence yes.
> and in fact can cause them harm.
i don't think that is intended either. and regarding the possible harm to the person who is blocked... the person gets blocked because of the possible harm to the person the incivility was directed towards. and the possible harm to other people who read the post. and to the possible harm to the community as a whole if those sorts of posts were acceptable to the forum.
> I still feel that his block is a bit harsh when the good he does weighs against what was said.
okay... lets suppose teh blocking system took into account how long people have been here and whether they tend to post helpful posts or not and how helpful their posts are etc etc.
if all that was taken into account...
do you think it would be possible (in practice) to have a system that was perceived as fair with fairly predictable consequences for saying certain sorts of things?
i think... it would be too hard.
and it would be mroe crazymaking for us in the long term.
there would be more 'you were lenient on him because he is your favourite' kind of stuff going on on the boards.i think...
the blocks / pbc's here are fairly much predictable.
sometimes i get a bit of a suprise...
but in the majority of times i am able to take the point.
i think they are fairly much predictable...
and i think that is good.> However, 6 weeks is quite awhile when Lar stated himself that he in fact was not well. What about his well being?
lets suppose i say 'i'm really not feeling very well but i also think you are a useless sack...'
(sorry - illustrative purposes...)
my point is that if people are given leniency for saying 'i really don't feel very well' then the prevalence of people saying 'i really don't feel very well' at the same time as saying incivilities would go up (as a matter of empirical fact)
then there would be problems around 'they are just saying that to avoid a block'
then there would be probelms around assessing whether they *really* are unwell or not...
so...
i think that system would get a little crazymaking as well...with respect to this block...
it has taken a few blocks for them to get up to the present length of 6 weeks.
how long was his last block for?
6 weeks?
i don't think this block is a doubling or tripling of his last block. that is my point there. *Usually* blocks are doubled or tripled for the next time...
the point that Larry's wasn't...
that shows leniency.
it does.
but there needs to be fairly predictible consequences...
for all of our sanity...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:03:17
In reply to to the Social Babblers » AuntieMel, posted by James K on January 6, 2006, at 17:56:26
> In my time here, I've begun to learn who is who and recognize the personalities with the posters names.
that is impressive. it took me a looooooooong time to get a grip on that...
> Alexandra, thanks for caring and I'm sorry you're sad. But please stick around, I like you.
:-)
thank you
i feel better now :-)
this sort of thing... happens a bit...
not a lot... but a bit...
i don't like it when people are hurting :-(
but...
i do find a huge value in being able to talk these things through honestly.i wanted to say...
that your post wasn't inappropriate at all.
i have done similarly...
and other people here have as well...
and every now and then people talk about it.it can be hard to live with physical scars etc
i understand that :-(you are a good guy
i'm glad you are here:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:06:46
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 17:50:39
> you do know that you don't have to read her posts - right? there is nothing whatsoever about people having to read all the posts on the board.
> I don't read them. But this was in the subject line.
ah. so you read the subject line and got triggered so that you can't read social anymore?
sorry...
am i being a bit dense?
Posted by AuntieMel on January 6, 2006, at 18:14:48
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:06:46
Yes - that is a large part of it.
That one in particular really upset me and I still get upset when I think about it - like now.
So - I'm signing off for now.
Posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 18:16:33
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 18:06:46
I still believe in my heart that Larry meant no harm and was only tired as he said and hurting in his own way too. I still believe the block is much too long. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 18:31:45
In reply to Too afraid to get help, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 8:23:02
How many fingers does a man have?
How many on 10 hands?
-------------------------------------------
Manipulation is not the best of words.
Delusional is not the best of words.
Paranoia is not the best of words.
If you called someone paronoid and delusional, its not the best of compliments.
If you called someone maipulative its not the best of compliments.
However if someone is paronoid and delusional (in psychiatric terms) they could quite possibly be viewed as Schizophrenic, or psychotic - take the tic away you have psycho - add babble and here we are ;-)
I think maipulation is everywhere, absolutely everywhere..turn on the T.V and you see an advert about some latest product, low and behold you have manipulation in the form of selling. Gene therapy. Putting a dam to block the flow of water - you're manipulating the flow of water. Take a psychiatric drug - you're manipulating your own body and brain chemistry. Loads of examples, but its late and i'll probably sound excentric if I continue.
Back to my main point though, like that of the delusional or manipulation. To the person suffering delusions it will seem very real indeed by the nature of it, in fact it is real to them.
Manipulation from the perspective of borderline (from what I understand) is that to them, they are not trying to 'manipulate' anyone, with regards to certain aspects of the word and illness. To the outside non-borderline - they often see the behaviour as manipulative.
I think its very hard to generalise over such things in an evironment such as this. However at the best we can gain a deeper understanding of the issue. Which should not be ignored, rather than help the person to deal with the issue in hand. In doing so people (Larry) got blocked but with the best intentions at heart. I truely think that psycho-babble socialas an online forum, like everything else in life has its limits.
Where speech is limited, and resources are text within a message, the limits that this has, means that for some people, outside resources in certain situations, suicide etc are clearly what need to be addressed as means for help, treatment and overall best outcome - outside this environment. It does say when you sign up, it might make you worse here, or something along those lines...
-------------------------------------------------
You might not view my question as manipulative - but it was if you got it wrong the first time. And I intended it to be....I was being manipulative...Maybe you fell in the trap and said 100 hundred because of the manipulative nature of the question...maybe it was obvious for some lolMaybe the word Manipulation in BPD means onething for someone - but is double dutch to another.
Totally nothing to do with anything, but I always thought and was under the impression that their is a patient and someone who treats the patient, i.e a doctor, nurse etc.
A client and consumer - now we're talking business?...now we're talking £$€ - and of course in doing so theres going to be manipulation with a client in some respects to get a sale....sometimes its obvious, cleverly done though its not, its not really even manipulation, probably because both parties are profiting - look at this site, people get "support and education" Dr Bob gets links to his book, possibly sales, research etc - highly gooable links too. To both parties.
Time for bed.
-------------------------------------------------
If you answered 8 or 10 for the first question you was correct.
If you answered 100 for the second you was wrong.
;-)
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 6, 2006, at 18:48:22
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU, posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2006, at 18:16:33
I agree completely.
And I think six weeks is disgusting.
Posted by wildcard on January 6, 2006, at 18:51:00
In reply to Re: THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU LARRY, THANK YOU » wildcard, posted by alexandra_k on January 6, 2006, at 17:58:43
We all have our own opinions re: this situation. It is all around unfortunate and has hurt so many. I am open minded to other opinions but stand by mine.
>>i think the block is INTENDED to prevent them from doing further harm IN THE SENSE of continuing to be uncivil.
I see exactly what you are saying, however I feel that what is intended isn't necessarily the reality. I don't as well as many others think that Lar meant any harm and although what he said was not right, I stand by my opinion that a 6 week block is unwarranted.
**and in fact can cause them harm
>> i don't think that is intended either....
once again, it may not be intended but this site is for support of all sorts of things and the intentions aren't always the reality.
>> and the possible harm to others who read the post...
As it has been stated before, we choose which posts to read. I have read a post w/o a trigger that had things I disagreed with or upset me so I chose to walk away. That entire thread upset many even w/o reading it way before Lar said what he did.
>>i think...
the blocks / pbc's here are fairly much predictable.Predictable, yes. IMO blocks and PBC's are NOT equal and fair majority of the time. I have taken huge steps back and just payed attention and IMO, rules are not followed to a T for every babbler.
>>okay... lets suppose teh blocking system took into account how long people have been here and whether they tend to post helpful posts or not and how helpful their posts are etc etc.
I don't feel it is necessarily about 'how long' at all but the punishment vs the crime.
>>if all that was taken into account...
>>do you think it would be possible (in practice) to have a system that was perceived as fair with fairly predictable consequences for saying certain sorts of things?I don't think it is working all that well as it is. There can always be room for improvement. In this 'individual' situation, Lar exhausted himself trying to help, maybe saving someone from something no one would want. That was not focused on what so ever though. I think it should have been but that's my opinion.
It's a very sad and upsetting situation and instead of helping, it is times like this when I personally feel this site can be more hurtful than helpful. Just me and how I feel about it. I am now gonna say night as I have to focus on me right now. Take care and goodnight.
Posted by zeugma on January 6, 2006, at 19:00:30
In reply to Answer this question as Fast as you can!, posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 18:31:45
oh, this has to be the grimmest, grimmest thread i have ever read.
Now therapy has never worked for me. And psycho-babble as a kind of therapy... well, these are my memories of group therapy. People would get upset, accusatory. People would leave the room and spend several hours in a 'safe' environment. But at least there was no danger of suicide.
I feel, I really feel that blocks can be dangerous to the person being blocked.
I feel that we dissimulate for a reason: to keep ourselves alive. Becoming callous serves the same purpose. We manipulate the environment via technology. We are even better at manipulating others, and sometimes we manipulate ourselves.
I think that Larry is a stronger, more compassionate person than I am. I will walk away from others when they are in need. None of these things will ever get me blocked, so callousness and dissimulation are clearly adaptive behaviors.
There's something about the way my sympathetic nervous system has been activated as I've made myself read this thread through. It is causing a knot in the pit of my stomach, and a constant, dull pain in my chest.
-z
Posted by lynn971 on January 6, 2006, at 19:01:47
In reply to Answer this question as Fast as you can!, posted by Nickengland on January 6, 2006, at 18:31:45
their share of hurt. Some have had more than their share. I hope the Deneb has a wonderful life and that she deals with the issues that plague her effectively and totally.
I personally like Lar very much. I am not saying that I agree with what Larry said, but when someone tells me something that I dont like I process it. I ask myself, "Is what they told me true?" If it is, I deal with it. If it is not true, I just try my best to disregard what was said.
"Better are the wounds brought on by a friend than the kisses of an enemy." (paraphrased -proverbs) I rather that a good friend tell me something about myself that will help me even if it hurt at the time.
Maybe Larry was just using "tough love." I dont think that we should be too hard on him.
Remember, everyone here suffers with some type of mental illness. We all hurt.
Luv ya,
Lynn
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