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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on December 21, 2005, at 18:59:16
In reply to Re: ((((deneb)))) ((((alexandra))))), posted by lynn971 on December 21, 2005, at 9:20:27
Sorry, y'know, I just forget that there's other points of view sometimes. Because I'm so totally entrenched in my own reality, I've finally got this Identity, I'm serious. (Sad isn't it) What I'm thinking just now is that I suddenly realized that I actually believe what I'm saying with such tiny little room left for doubt, in my head, that I totally forget to leave my discussions open to all viewpoints, I start posting with this incredibly narrow little window of understanding, because I'm not thinking from a Christian viewpoint or any other one than mine, really. I'm just not that quick, y'know? So I appreciate you jumping in and bringing us back to reality, which is that no one really knows but a lot of us think we do ... I keep getting stuck in thinking my own way and forgetting to appreciate other's understandings .. and honestly, to be truthful about this Lynn, it doesn't matter really to me who's right or not about this because either way, it has to be okay. We just don't have any choice in this matter, but we have choices which are sometimes really limited, in life anyway, and I don't always make the right ones but I feel so kind of lucky to be able to have ANY choices to make. Sorry, I got carried away, this became more than a short loving and lovely answer as I really intended it to be. I'll probably be PBC'd again and blocked for even longer..
Posted by lynn971 on December 21, 2005, at 21:26:24
In reply to Re: ((((deneb)))) ((((alexandra))))) » lynn971, posted by Susan47 on December 21, 2005, at 18:59:16
It is good to come to babble land and have people who can support you no matter what our religious beliefs are. I just want you to know that I am not a person who judges people even if we do not have the same beliefs.
uh! the thought of hell makes me cringe! I wish that there were no such thing as hell.
Posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2005, at 21:48:54
In reply to Re: I really like you guys, posted by lynn971 on December 21, 2005, at 21:26:24
Did anyone see the Barbara Walters special on last night on Heaven. We taped it as it's two hours long and watched part of it last night. She interview someone of all faiths Christian, Jewish, Islam to name a few. And belive it or not as far as I watched it we really do all have similar views. Gonna watch some more before bed. And Susan why do you think you'd get a PBC? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 14:23:10
In reply to Re: I really like you guys, posted by lynn971 on December 21, 2005, at 21:26:24
Hmm, see now, hell is my blind spot, 'cause I honestly believe that hell is a concept created by man to reflect the worst parts of life, to frighten everyone into submitting to a better good.. whatever that's supposed to be, I suppose we've made it so that we can survive no matter what at the expense of everything else. It's ironic that in our drive to survive, we're killing not just everything else but of course, ourselves as well.
In any case Lynn, I totally find the concept of hell insupportable, even if I find the concept of heaven imaginable, 'cause I think the worst hell is the one we make ourselves right here IRL. Now of course that's just my blind opinion, well, maybe not exactly blind, but definitely uneducated and ignorant. Really, I've never read the bible or a lot of other worthwhile reading. I really admire people who can do that, people who take the time to research what they're talking about on an honest level. I guess that's what formal education is about. Don't have any.
Posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 14:25:51
In reply to Re: I really like you guys, posted by Phillipa on December 21, 2005, at 21:48:54
Because I tend to pee people off.
I'm not surprised that people have similar views across religions, if I'm reading you right, concerning what they refer to as heaven, because we all share the human experience and misery and joy are common to most of us in the same manner, really.
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 17:54:34
In reply to Re: good to see you back :-) » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k2 on December 19, 2005, at 20:26:16
I felt bad that you got blocked in the thread we were having a conversation in.
-T
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:16:58
In reply to Re: trigger **** » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k2 on December 18, 2005, at 16:14:46
> Though... For the record...
> I'd like to be cremated.
> Or if I'm buried...
> I'd like a tree to be planted over top of me.
> Round about where my belly button is / was
> Let me think on what kind of tree...
> I think I want something with good strong roots...
> Because the point is to be part of the tree...That's beautiful. I'd like it to be a Magnolia.
> Just in case it does feel like something to be dead
> And your consciousness is still associated with your body / brain...
> I'd like the particles to become part of another living thing...
> I imagine that would take a number of years.
>
> I have been thinking...
> I wonder if air has distributed consciousness.
> I mean...
> We do.
> Our brains...
> Different things going on in different parts of our brains
> Produces different effects in our conscious experience
> Our conscious experience is distributed in space
> I wonder what happens to it when we die
> Maybe it needs to be instantiated on / realised on something physical
> Like money is more than bits of paper and metal but money needs some physical instantiation or other...
> I wonder if it breaks up...
> Becomes less distributed...
> Or whether we become more distributed...
> Whats it like to be air???
> A gas???
>
Whoa, deep. I've actually thought somewhere along those lines. There are things that would seem umbelievable to us now, but may be understood in the future. Its the way its always been. So who's to know if 'ghosts' actually exist and can be explained scientifically, but we're just not advanced enough to understand yet.-T
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:33:53
In reply to Sorry, I don't want to be dead, posted by Deneb on December 18, 2005, at 16:27:07
First off, I'm so sorry about Hammie. ((((Deneb))))
As for the curiousity about death, I think that's normal. I think everyone wonders what its going to be like, no matter what their beliefs are.
When my time comes, if all hope is gone and death inevitable, I think my thoughts would be, "I'm finally going to find out what really happens!!!" If I have the opportunity to think about it that is.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 19:44:24
In reply to Re: ((((deneb)))) ((((alexandra))))) » lynn971, posted by Susan47 on December 21, 2005, at 18:59:16
i think you are alright
i love to hear you say what you think
:-)
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:49:12
In reply to Re: I really like you guys, posted by lynn971 on December 21, 2005, at 21:26:24
> It is good to come to babble land and have people who can support you no matter what our religious beliefs are. I just want you to know that I am not a person who judges people even if we do not have the same beliefs.
If only the rest of the world could be that way! I have my own beliefs, but who am I to say I'm right and somebody else is wrong. I figure, why argue about it when we won't know until it actually happens anyway. Its like arguing about the color of the sky in a hypothetical world, in a hypothetical universe.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 19:50:36
In reply to Re: I really like you guys, posted by lynn971 on December 21, 2005, at 21:26:24
> uh! the thought of hell makes me cringe! I wish that there were no such thing as hell.
well... hell is what... believing in heaven buys you.
satan is what... believing in god buys you.
evil is what... believeing in good buys you.
they are just converse ideas...
and if you believe in one... the other sort of rides along for free...
basically... i reject them both.
it doesn't have to be that way.
buddists don't believe in hell.
i don't believe... in either heaven or hell.
basically...
while we surely do not know everything about consciousness...
if i become part of a tree...
i ain't gonna be 'me' trapped in a trees body.
how can i remember when memories are neural connections?
it is possible that what is essential to the neural connections is a complex mathematical function that can be realised on alternative hardware...
but if you want survival after death...
if you want *you* to survive after death...i really don't think you can have that...
unless...
someone realises the mathematical function of your neural connections on alternative hardware...
like...
a computer program hooked up to a robot body...
or a virtual body...
in a virtual world...
probably not making much sense here...
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:56:24
In reply to Sorry, I don't want to be dead, posted by Deneb on December 18, 2005, at 16:27:07
I assumed Hammie was your hamster that died, but I just saw her name was Sophie.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 19:58:11
In reply to Re: trigger **** » alexandra_k2, posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:16:58
> That's beautiful. I'd like it to be a Magnolia.
:-)
I thought is wasn't a bad idea till I got to thinking about the worms... But... A worm doesn't disgust itself... So... Maybe I'll deal :-)
> Whoa, deep. I've actually thought somewhere along those lines. There are things that would seem umbelievable to us now, but may be understood in the future.There are research grants being given to people who... attempt to study consciousness scientifically. seems to involve... revisions to physics
(and yeah there is math in that - sigh)
> who's to know if 'ghosts' actually exist and can be explained scientifically, but we're just not advanced enough to understand yet.
well...
what is a ghost supposed to be?
once you have a 'definition' then you need to see whether that is consistent (ie whether it is actually possible for ghosts to exist). if the concept is contradictory in some way... then we have learned that there are no such things as ghosts.people do study psy phenomena scientifically. there is a university somewhere in the US... can't remember what it is called.
they study telekenesis and esp etc etc...
interesting...
the methods are there...
but we need to begin with conceputal analysis...
what is a ghost supposed to be?
this kind of thing that can fly through walls yet also pick up objects and throw them around?
anybody think there might be a problem here?????
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 19:58:44
In reply to Re: Oops! » Deneb, posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:56:24
> I assumed Hammie was your hamster that died, but I just saw her name was Sophie.
>
> -Ter...
both of them died :-(
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 20:19:20
In reply to Re: trigger **** » TexasChic, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 19:58:11
> I thought is wasn't a bad idea till I got to thinking about the worms... But... A worm doesn't disgust itself... So... Maybe I'll deal :-)
Regardless what happens to your contiousness, your physical body will be broken down and become part of the cycle of life. If its worm food, the worm will go on to feed the birds or enrich the soil so that plants can grow. That means everything serves a purpose, which makes me feel better about it.
> well...
> what is a ghost supposed to be?
> once you have a 'definition' then you need to see whether that is consistent (ie whether it is actually possible for ghosts to exist). if the concept is contradictory in some way... then we have learned that there are no such things as ghosts.But what if its existance it beyond our comprehention? What if it appears contradictory, but only because we don't understand? Oh, and by ghost, I guess I really meant soul, contiousness after death, stuff like that.
> this kind of thing that can fly through walls yet also pick up objects and throw them around?
Doesn't sound possible, but then, neither did electricity a while back.
-T
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 20:53:02
In reply to Re: trigger **** » alexandra_k, posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 20:19:20
> Regardless what happens to your contiousness, your physical body will be broken down and become part of the cycle of life. If its worm food, the worm will go on to feed the birds or enrich the soil so that plants can grow. That means everything serves a purpose, which makes me feel better about it.
yes. and to think... that the atoms that make me up... were once part of a dinosaur or a rock or a bird or... another human being...
> But what if its existance it beyond our comprehention?we cannot think the unthinkable
we cannot comprehend the incomprehensible
what lies outside our comprehension...
we cannot make sense of...
we can only gesture up against the limit of sense...
we can never get outside it to see what is there...> What if it appears contradictory, but only because we don't understand?
it is possible we have described it inaccurately, yeah. so...
Q how many philosophers does it take to change a light bulb?
A if you think on it you will see that a light bulb is (by definition) a bearer of light. if it does not bear light, then it cannot be a light bulb.(the answer to the problem lies in the dissolution of the problem)
sigh.
but unfortunatly verbal tricks do not lead us closer to the nature of external reality...> Oh, and by ghost, I guess I really meant soul, contiousness after death, stuff like that.
ah.. consensus (among philosophers)... one shouldn't talk about consensus very often... but consensus fairly much is that... there is no such thing as a soul. no such thing as 'animal spirits' to differentiate between living and non-living things, no such thing as 'heat fluid' to differentiate between hot and cold things... no such things as 'souls' to differentiate the human beings from the other animals.
(the idea that animals get to go to heaven is not biblical to the best of my knowledge. it is certainly not christian to the best of my knowledge because a dog / cat / beast can hardly 'confess their sins' to jesus in order to be saved... and neither... can infants... and neither... can people who live in a culture where they have never heard of jesus christ).
> > this kind of thing that can fly through walls yet also pick up objects and throw them around?
> Doesn't sound possible, but then, neither did electricity a while back.yes.
good point.
in order for consciousness to survive the decomposition of neurons...
it may well require us to alter physics so that consciousness is brute in teh same way that electromagnetic charge is brute etc etc.
that is one thought anyways...
:-)
but then... what is consciousness? a degree of charge like how there is electromagnetism?
i dunno
my head is starting to hurt :-(
i would like to learn more about this...but there is math :-(
(because typically... it is the structure of the brain that is thought to be important. the connections that obtain between neurones / nodes). you can express that mathematically... and then... you could make something physical (like a bit of 'hardware') that you could 'run' or 'instantiate' the mathematical function (mind / soul) on.
if... that is the anture of consciousness...
then... what is required... is the preservation (or continuity with...) the mathematicalyl expressed state of the brain at time t.
(sorry don't know whether i'm saying it right... don't really have head around proper way of expresseing it and not sure whether i get it properly anyways...)
but the nature of consciousness is one thing...
personal identity (and the survival of me after death) is another...Okay... here is a fairly good summary of some stuff on survival after death.
It is written as a dialogue... The main character is going to die... and others try and console her with the 'better place' thing... and so, for something to do... they have a chat where the purpose is merely to persuade the dying person that it is *possible* that they will survive. not to prove that they will. just to prove that it is *possible* that they will.
here is the book...
"Dialogues on Personal Identity"
but why read that when you can read notes???
;-)
http://www.unc.edu/~megw/Perry.html
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 21:02:45
In reply to Re: trigger **** » TexasChic, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 20:53:02
ROFL!!!
there are some reviews of the book on the amazon link...
spot the people who assigned the txt...
and the people who were assigned the txt...
Posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 21:16:30
In reply to Re: trigger **** » TexasChic, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 20:53:02
That sounds facinating. But I have to go to bed now, I get up at 4am. I bookmarked it so I can read it later though.
I enjoyed exchanging deep thoughts with you!
-T
Posted by zeugma on December 22, 2005, at 21:23:15
In reply to Re: trigger **** » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 21:02:45
> ROFL!!!
>
> there are some reviews of the book on the amazon link...
>
> spot the people who assigned the txt...
>
> and the people who were assigned the txt...
yes, i was amused by those reviews... one of the reviewers signed him/herself 'A Satisfied Student'... seemed quaint and heartwarming till i wondered about the acronym- still, a very civil and amusing link.-z
>
>
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 21:56:59
In reply to Re: trigger **** » alexandra_k, posted by zeugma on December 22, 2005, at 21:23:15
> yes, i was amused by those reviews...
:-)
> one of the reviewers signed him/herself 'A Satisfied Student'... seemed quaint and heartwarming till i wondered about the acronym- still, a very civil and amusing link.
heh heh. maybe they forgot to add 'awaiting my grade...'
:-)
Posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 22:43:50
In reply to I'm glad to see you back too Susan!, posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 17:54:34
Hey TexasChic,
Don't feel bad on my account, I was asking for it. I was surprised because it took the moderator so long to catch up with me, when I thought about it afterward. And do you know I actually had the audacity to feel miffed? After what I'd said .. which honestly, was basically that I wasn't sorry if I hurt his feelings or whatever. That was the unforgivable part I suppose. And that's my problem anyway, I don't count all people equal.
Far from it.
And that's a small crime, these days.
You know what, TexasChic? I feel like I was honest anyway, so in a way the block had to be worth it for me, you know .. I couldn't let this man go blindly past in his travels without at least making an effort .. but it isn't my job to open anyone else's eyes. It's all just a matter of opinion in any case. I mean, in many countries people, not just women but men women and children, are all disposable.
Posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 22:49:43
In reply to Re: Sorry, I don't want to be dead » Deneb, posted by TexasChic on December 22, 2005, at 19:33:53
That's interesting, because the concept we have about thinking is that it has to do with our brains, which if we die then our brains no longer receive oxygen or nourishment, so they die, so there's no thinking involved in death, at least not the same way we do it now, where it can be physically traced on maps of the brain.
So the thinking will be different, it won't be the thinking as we know it. Maybe it'll be more of an experience, an ethereal one like being part of the air, like molecules of some consciousness we can't now see or feel .. another plane of existence, well it just has to be if the physical self dies which we definitely know it does. At least we think we know it does.. this could all just be part of someone's dream.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2005, at 22:57:45
In reply to Re: Sorry, I don't want to be dead » TexasChic, posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 22:49:43
yes susan.
yes thats what i was thinking...what is it like to be a rock?
it can't see anything (no eyes)
it can't hear anything (no ears)
it doesn't have any sense organs so it wouldn't have awareness of the external world...
it doesn't have a nervous system so it wouldn't have awareness of the internal world (e.g. emotions or hunger or biological drives)
it doesn't have a brain to play math or logic puzzles with itself...
to reflect on the a-priori...but what is it like to be a rock?
calm..
?
i don't think we can comprehend...
but sometimes i wonder...
with mindfulness meditation...
when you focus on one thing
so that one becomes all
and there is calm...maybe thats what its like...
maybe air is movement without nausea...
i don't know...
i'm not stoned or anything...
but i think maybe i've had a few too many trips in my day ;-)
but...
i guess i think death is something like that...
or else...
it is like nothing at all.
game over.
i really don't think...
i mind either way...
but i'm not so keen on pain :-(
but i figure...
there won't be any of that for a good long while at any rate...
:-)
Posted by TexasChic on December 25, 2005, at 21:38:41
In reply to Re: Sorry, I don't want to be dead » TexasChic, posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 22:49:43
I had a Philosophy book that ended with that question in the prologue. I love stuff like that.
-T
Posted by TexasChic on December 25, 2005, at 21:42:43
In reply to Re: I'm glad to see you back too Susan! » TexasChic, posted by Susan47 on December 22, 2005, at 22:43:50
Yeah, sometimes we have to rock the boat to be heard. I hear ya. Too many people keep their opinions to their selves for fear of being judged. Its us trouble makers that make a difference in the world! So battle on girl!
-T
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