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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 9:02:10
Okay, this is going to probably tick some people off and may even get me kicked off here, or at the very least my hand slapped, but I have something to say.
I live in America. A country built on freedom and oportunity. We have opened our door to immigrants and well we should, that how this country started. (except for that 'driving the Native Americans off their land into reservations and massacreing hundreds and thousands of them' thing).
We have more money than God. Or so the government says. We feed the hungry in other countries, but not our own. We financially bail other countries out of a jam, but of course usually only if it benefits us, i.e. as in political strategy. They call it foreign policy. I call it knowing what hand feeds you.
Now comes the crux of my post. We think we are special. We think we are better. And of course, we think we can help the world be just like us. In reality, what we have done is help the world be better than us.
I currently work for a manufacturing company that is going down the tubes. I mean the ship is literally sinking. Why? Well, of course there has been some minor management decisions that have played a part, but for the most part, our product has been replaced with imports. It's as simple as that. We cannot compete. I want to blame lifting the trade embargo with China, but in all reality, we did this to ourselves.
We have priced ourselves out of the market, and esentially out of a job. We are better...or so we think. We drive SUV's, we have cell phones, we have tv's that cover an entire wall....and yet, it's all about to fall down around our feet.
Manufacturing wages, like most others of course are based on supply and demand. Jobs are competitive, and yet I am in an area where $12 and hour won't pay a house payment, a car payment, and feed a family of 5. Yet, in other countries the wages are often $1 or less. They survive, why can't we? It's simple really, our cost of living is so great we couldn't buy a loaf of bread for that. But we certainly could tighten our belt, now couldn't we? We could throw the cell phone away, or perhaps use it instead of a land line. We could go without our sattelite service. We could buy used cars instead of new ones. We could actually downsize our lives in many ways, but will we? Are we willing to have less that we think we deserve?
Angry with foreigners taking our jobs? What a laugh. We are too good to work for pennies. There are hundred of thousands of Mexican living and working in the United States right now, making very little, and yet are surviving and many times sending half their wages home to their families in their native land. That makes some of us very, very upset. Why how dare they! But we refuse to admit that we caused the problem. We live high on the hog and now are suffering the consequences. Why should we be upset for someone else taking a job we feel is either beneath us or for wages below what we feel we are worth? This has been going on for many, many years.
Now, people are no longer even concerned with buying American made products. Why would they, they can get it cheaper and sometimes with the very same quality from a company over seas. This concept of "Buy American" heated up many years ago with the auto industry. Did it work? No. Other countries went ahead and prospered, and in many instances made a better product than Americans did.
It's simple really. The regulations that our government has put out there for the protection of the American worker has esentially stopped American manufacturing in their tracks. Now, don't get me wrong, I am fully in agreement with minimum wage requirements, worker's comp insurance, unemployment benefits, OSHA safety standards, and all the other policies that have been put into place to protect workers in this country from being taken advantage of, hurt, or what have you. But esentially, these things, these protective ideas have created a working environment that is safer, healthier, and more financially sound, but yet, the jobs are transfering over seas because it is cheaper to make something if you don't have to pay very much or spend money making sure your worker is safe. Now I am NOT saying that this is better. It's not, but it's a fact.
China is the world leader in exporting and I'd bet America is the world leader in importing. And because we are so much better than everyone else (tongue is inserted in cheek) we often will not take a job without all these protective measures in place. Yet, we are the very workers who sometimes abuse those measures. How many people do you know who are on disability and are out mowing their lawns and trimming their trees? How many people do you know who are sitting on their front porch swings watching the cars go by drawing unemployment, because they can? Did you know that in my state, if you leave your job for better employment and it turns out the job isn't better, you can quit, and draw unemployment and it is charged to your first employer? Know anyone who has committed insurance fraud? Know anyone who has told their employment that they were hurt on the job when in reality they got into a fight at the local tavern Sat night? Did you know that in cases of cronic carpal tunnel, if you don't turn it in to your current employer, you can just simply get another similar job and turn it in there? At least you can in my state. How about someone who thought they might make a buck or two by suing their employer for sexual harassment? Even if it is bogus, do you know it can cost at the very least $100,000 to fight it? All these things, all these examples I have seen with my own eyes. In the United States manufacturing employers spend billions of dollars on programs designed to protect the employee and yet there is so much fraud it is dispicable.
Yes, we are too good, or so we think. We have so many avenues for our workers to not work, it's tempting, very tempting. And what's really sad is there are so many people in this country who benefit from these programs because they really can't work. But in the long run it's not going to matter, because American manufacturers are dropping like flies. What jobs can we Americans get now that will feed our families, support the lifestyle we are accustomed to, and make us feel all warm and toasty about our contribution to the world? I'm not sure. Something in insurance I'll bet. 911 certainly made those companies sit up and take notice and pass that little cost onto us consumers.
I don't know, I really don't know what it is going to take for us to realize we need a major overhaul in our country.Suggestions would be appreciated.
Dr. Bob, I know you will want to move this over to the political board, but I would prefer it stay here. I don't think this is solely about politics, I think it is about human nature as well.
Ada, needs a job, Grace
Posted by sunny10 on August 26, 2005, at 12:19:35
In reply to America: Land of the free, and the lazy, posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 9:02:10
everything you wrote is true...
If you really need work, you should send this piece in to a newspaper as an editorial!!!
And I agree that this is not a political statement.
It is a statement rooted in American sociology... the what we have become.
I am middle class, but I only have $4000.00 in savings for my retirement (or, frankly, to move to another state where I can hopefully live for less). And I'm 38 yrs old. Still practically living paycheck to paycheck. With very bad credit from my ex-husband- no credit card at all for emergencies. Any emergency and my retirement money goes away faster than I put it aside.
I don't mind being middle class except for one thing. I see the same thing you do. And while the cost of living is rising, we are not getting any cost of living raises because our companies' CEO's aren't rich enough (in their minds).
From what I've been able to compute, I will have to live in a cardboard box in ten years because I won't be able to afford the rents. Because, no, I don't own a home. I've never made enough money to own a home.
But the rich people will remain rich while they work their import companies and pay lawyers to find tax shelters for them while I pay my share of taxes that I can't afford.
I hear ya, AdaGrace.
Scary future we've made for our children, isn't it?!?!
Posted by caraher on August 26, 2005, at 12:52:53
In reply to Re: America: Land of the free, and the lazy » AdaGrace, posted by sunny10 on August 26, 2005, at 12:19:35
While there certainly are people who do not work or otherwise cheat the system we aren't losing manufacturing jobs because Americans are lazy. Sunny is closer to the mark with the comment about avaricious CEOs. "Globalization" is not the inevitable outcome of market forces but the result of giving multinational corporations free rein to pursue what has become their sole purpose, the concentration of wealth in their hands.
American workers are not being overpaid when it takes two full-time jobs to make ends meet in so many families. Sure, many (most?) families could cut back and get by on less income. And we really could and should reduce our consumption of natural resources. Ada mentioned the notion of teaching the rest of the world to be "like us." The trouble is, the world cannot support 6+ billion people consuming resources and generating pollution at the rate Americans do. But the economic realities that cause the loss of US manufacturing jobs have nothing to do with overconsumption or the failings of American workers. Rather, they result from our acquiescence to the "leveling" of wages, environmental regulations, etc. demanded by entities responsive not to human needs but only the bottom line.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 17:19:44
In reply to Re: America: Land of the free, and the lazy, posted by caraher on August 26, 2005, at 12:52:53
I think I did say some of that. Maybe not as eloquently as needed, but it was said just the same. And if you would re-read everything I have written, I agree with you, but unless you live in middle America and work in a town of 1000 people. You must not see the able bodied people not working and living off welfare, food stamps, unemployment, or disability. If that's not lazy, I don't know what is. It's this abuse of the system that unfortunately has a direct bearing on why American manufacturing is moving over seas. Maybe not all the cause, but it certainly is a factor.
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2005, at 18:08:10
In reply to Re: America: Land of the free, and the lazy » caraher, posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 17:19:44
We do import one thing that I know of and that is nurses. We have very inadequate healthcare at the time. Too many patiens to receive good care. And what about all the docs who are quitting because malpractice insurance is so high. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on August 26, 2005, at 18:24:23
In reply to Re: America: Land of the free, and the lazy » caraher, posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 17:19:44
> You must not see the able bodied people not working and living off welfare, food stamps, unemployment, or disability. If that's not lazy, I don't know what is.
Hi AdaGrace,
There may be some here who receive these services. Please be sensitive to their feelings, and avoid posting anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.Quoting Dr. Bob: If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
gg
Posted by FlyingKangaroo on August 26, 2005, at 20:38:20
In reply to America: Land of the free, and the lazy, posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 9:02:10
Well said Ada and i couldnt agree more.
It is a sad fact that so many people abuse the system and get away with it. It's pretty pathetic that we feel the need to keep up with the Jone's when they are driving their Mercedes Benz Suv's to the soccer field. I would like nothing more to than to go back to the horse and buggy days but the jone's would kick me off the block if my house looked like "little house on the prairie" and my son would get bullied at school if he carried his books in a leather strap. Ive lived in NY for the past 11 years and i cant help but believe that this way of life here has been a major contributor to my emotional imbalance. I own a small business that struggles daily with the outrages cost of insurance, taxes and fuel etc. There always seems to be another company around here that will do the same job for $1.00 less and to the customer its always about bottom line. Sometimes i think it just aint worth all the stress and i should just pack it in and the fact that so many different gov't agancies gets to put their hand in my pocket doesnt help.
I'll be in the midwest soon (working) and I am seriously going to consider moving there to a new "little house on the prairie life".
Technology can go ahead without me as i will be planting my food and riding my four legged suv to the soccer field. But before i leave i will have to see what happens to my cell phone when i put it in the microwave on high for 10 minutes.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 21:54:33
In reply to Please be sensitive » AdaGrace, posted by gardenergirl on August 26, 2005, at 18:24:23
I said "able bodied". Meaning I understand the necessity for these programs for individuals who need these services. I do not understand someone who is on dissability because they have a drug addiction and are able to get government subsidies and really never attempt to seek treatment for their addiction. I am talking about people who have more children because they can get more government welfare money and are not trying to get a job. I am talking about people who CAN work who are physically and psychologically ABLE to work, but chose to use government subsidies instead. I completely understand the need for these programs, I've been there. I am talking about the people who abuse the system for years because they know they can. They're out there GG, hundreds of people abusing the system that was meant to help people, and as a result are using up the resources that might not be there in the future for others who really need them.
Posted by Tamar on August 27, 2005, at 6:41:58
In reply to Re: Please be sensitive » gardenergirl, posted by AdaGrace on August 26, 2005, at 21:54:33
Uh-oh, I feel a rant coming on…
I just don’t think drug addicts are psychologically able to work. And possibly not physically either. I’d want to look at individual cases… and I’d want to ask: why is this person a drug addict? It’s too easy to say that people are just bad and take drugs out of badness. However, I think there are reasons why people use drugs… reasons like poverty, abuse, illness… and the reason many people don’t seek treatment is that treatments costs a lot of money and not everyone has it. Free programs are difficult to get into. Treatment isn’t a wonder cure; if the reasons for drug use are still there, people often go back to it. And ultimately treatment probably doesn’t seem like a viable option to people who just don’t believe their lives could be any better. I would like to see more compassion in society for drug users. They are human beings like the rest of us.
As for other categories of people who live on welfare… I think the percentage of people who abuse the system is probably tiny. Getting welfare isn’t easy; there are a lot of hoops to jump through. And I think there are probably more people who need it but don’t get it than people who get it undeservedly.
Sorry for the rant…
Tamar
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 16:09:49
In reply to slight rant, posted by Tamar on August 27, 2005, at 6:41:58
It's the deal between US bases overseas and trade concessions for them, isn't it, that guts US industry. Actually I'm out of date, that applies to East Asia but not to China. Still if the US want to put troops in 129 countries, or whatever it is, there are going to be consequences. For which it is convenient to blame the weak and unfortunate.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 16:19:46
In reply to slight rant, posted by Tamar on August 27, 2005, at 6:41:58
It's the combination of dogeatdog with high minded religiosity that gets me about the US.
Declan
Posted by ClearSkies on August 27, 2005, at 16:44:31
In reply to Rant continued, posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 16:19:46
> It's the combination of dogeatdog with high minded religiosity that gets me about the US.
> DeclanWoah! Please don't paint an entire country with the same brush! I mean, I'm not American, but that's quite the blanket statement you've made, isn't it?
Can I be offended on behalf of a country?
your Canadian babbler comrade, living in the US,
ClearSkies
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 17:47:04
In reply to Re: Rant continued » Declan, posted by ClearSkies on August 27, 2005, at 16:44:31
Of course it's a vast generalisation. But is there any truth in it? If not.....
And anyway it's not person specific, I'm talking about countries. Maybe you can talk about countries without huge generalisations, but only at book length. I wouldn't be offended if someone said some such thing about Australia, or wherever I was, well maybe *some* things could be said that would offend me but nothing like that. But anyway that's the view here from outside the US for some of us, for better or worse.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 17:57:17
In reply to Re: Rant continued, posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 17:47:04
That was meant to be dogeatdog, not dogatdog.
Declan
Posted by ClearSkies on August 27, 2005, at 18:24:43
In reply to Slight Clarification, posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 17:57:17
Well, that's ok then.
:-)
Posted by sleepygirl on August 27, 2005, at 19:07:57
In reply to Rant continued, posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 16:19:46
You know I hear a lot of anti-american sentiment from people outside the US. Can anyone speak to whether this is quite common?
You think it bothers you? try living in the US!
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 20:24:14
In reply to Re: Rant continued » Declan, posted by sleepygirl on August 27, 2005, at 19:07:57
Hi Sleepygirl
It's quite common in some parts but not in others. This is Australia. Where I live it's greenies, old lefties and hippies and rich people and here it's not odd for people to write to the paper about US war crimes etc. Not all Australia is like that.
As to why there is this perception. I think it is US unilateralism, US foreign policy, the US entertainment industry, and US religion. I think maybe all of them at once is too much, and like Tamar said, the media projection of this highlights it.
At the Sydney Writers Festival I saw Harvey Pekar and Joyce Brabner, they do comics, good ones about politics, depression and cancer, and someone asked Joyce Brabner about why the US was so loopy and she said something like it's not just us, we are all in this hole together, and anyway who thought up Rupert Murdoch. Everyone there agreed that the overall prospects were depressing.
I think at least once a day, what would it be like for me and the people I know in the US. It must be something else.
And for heavens sake, I live in what many people say is the easiest country on earth to live in. And what's more in the nicest part of it.
I dunno
Declan
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 27, 2005, at 20:54:21
In reply to slight rant, posted by Tamar on August 27, 2005, at 6:41:58
Thank you Tamar,
For ranting for me.
The percentage of "able bodied" people who are on disability is less than 1%
That was established during a "shake up" when all people on disability were being reassessed for their eligibility.Considering that disability does not provide enough money for a lifestyle even close to comfortable, and the consistant degradation of being on it, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone who is psychologically able to work would choose it as a sole income.
They may not fit into a psychiatric category, but there is definitely a psychiatric issue there. And for the amount you have to beg, and plead and and worry and wait in lines, in many ways it's more "work" and far more soul-killing than a job itself. I've done both, I know what of I speak.
I keep hearing about these able-bodied people on social assistance benefits, but I haven't met one yet. I've also asked people who they know of, when they speak of these folks undeserving, and I honestly haven't recieved an answer, they just "know"
Posted by sleepygirl on August 27, 2005, at 21:07:03
In reply to Re: Rant continued, posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 20:24:14
I'd like to fake an australian accent and move there, try to blend in, it looks beautiful. As far as politics go I am woefully ignorant - I just look at George Bush and shake my head, mercy, mercy me.
Posted by Declan on August 27, 2005, at 23:18:47
In reply to Re: Rant continued, posted by sleepygirl on August 27, 2005, at 21:07:03
Yeah, gee, well that's fair enough, about GWB I mean.
Declan
Posted by AdaGrace on August 28, 2005, at 8:38:29
In reply to Re: slight rant, posted by Gabbix2 on August 27, 2005, at 20:54:21
I by no means intend to offend anyone, and I realize I am probably stepping on toes. But if you will read in my posts above, you will see where I said I live in a very rural area, I am sure the statistics are somewhat skewed from the norm, but certainly more than 1%. Where I work, the unemployment rate is extreemly high in comparison to the state. The county is one of the poorest counties, and having said all of that, I do know from being directly involved with Human Resources at my job, there is an extreemly high percentage of people in this town, and this county who are "able" to work, and chose not to, opting for government assistance instead. I "know" this, because I "know" these people. They used to work for my company, and as former employees, my job is to fill out the paperwork that the SRS office or unemployment office, or SS administration sends me in regards to these employees. I have on many occassions, had employees, single employees without children, who would put that they had 12 household exemptions on their W-4, so they would not have any taxes taken out. I have filled out paperwork for people who have directly told me that they were going to try to get unemployment, even though we had a job available for them. I have been directly involved in a law suit in which an employee sued our company and lost, but not before it cost the company over $150,000 in legal fee, to prove it's innocence. And the reason? We knew that if we simply offered a small minute settlement, to avoid the legal fees, he would accept, but yet, others, many others would come to the surface to try to do the same thing. During this lawsuit, it was apparent that this individual was lying and working the system, and had done it many times before. In many different avenues. The mentality in a poverish area like this seems to be "I want to get something for nothing" And it seems that contrary to what you are saying, it IS pretty easy to do, here in the middle of nowhere, from my point of view. This individual had lived his life "working the system" and once the system caught on, and the assistance was taken away, he moved on to another system. This went on for 20 years. I realize this is one case. Once case of abuse of government assistance. But is it not a little like insurance? It's there to help and protect, but once it is used, the cost goes up? Doesn't fraud and abuse cause government programs to become more costly for tax payers? Just like turning in a minor fender bender causes your insurance rates to go up? Sure, there are government regulations, and yes, there have been lots of reform, but has it been enough? Has it trickled down here to nowhere land? I am not about to sit here and suggest that everybody on government assistance is a fraud. And I am not about to pretend to know everything, because I have never been in a situation to require government assistance. I have only been on the employer side in processing the paperwork. I realize my view is tainted from experience. And this subject is really not the main point I have stated in my original post, it's merely a factor of a much bigger problem.
Posted by AdaGrace on August 28, 2005, at 8:54:43
In reply to slight rant, posted by Tamar on August 27, 2005, at 6:41:58
Seriously Tamar, it is a huge temptation for me to not work, get unemployment, and welfare when that runs out. But I work, because I feel I have to. Maybe that is in part to the luxuries I have gotten myself into maintaining that I probably could give up. I have health insurance that I am losing because of losing my job that I am scared not to have, so I am going to have to cough up an additional $700 to $1000 to have insurance that really isn't all that good anyway. $1500 deductable, pre-existing condition clauses, etc. Now I have become to realize that there is something to be said for having nothing. Medicaid and welfare is very tempting when you think about it. They don't get the same care, yes I have heard that arguement. But maybe that isn't the case in everyday care needs like colds, flu, minor injuries.
I don't think drug addicts are phycially able to work either, but they would be if the sought treatment. And again, I have personal knowledge that the government can and will provide free or inexpensive treatment for individuals who are willing to kick the habbit.
I was a recipient of reduced cost psycological care, I didn't continue with it, for reasons that have no bearing on my point here....I didn't even ask for it. I just stupidly called the first number in the book. I wasn't aware that it was a county government run organization, but I can tell you this. The cost of the sessions were cheaper than what I pay in cigarettes and booze in a week, and that seems pretty minute to me. Could it not be possible that if I was poverty stricken and couldn't get or keep a job due to my alcohol adicition that I could of benefited from that situation?
Posted by Tamar on August 28, 2005, at 13:12:02
In reply to Re: Temptation » Tamar, posted by AdaGrace on August 28, 2005, at 8:54:43
> Seriously Tamar, it is a huge temptation for me to not work, get unemployment, and welfare when that runs out. But I work, because I feel I have to. Maybe that is in part to the luxuries I have gotten myself into maintaining that I probably could give up. I have health insurance that I am losing because of losing my job that I am scared not to have, so I am going to have to cough up an additional $700 to $1000 to have insurance that really isn't all that good anyway. $1500 deductable, pre-existing condition clauses, etc. Now I have become to realize that there is something to be said for having nothing.
Really? You really think there’s an advantage to having nothing? I just can’t imagine a world in which that’s actually true.
> Medicaid and welfare is very tempting when you think about it. They don't get the same care, yes I have heard that arguement. But maybe that isn't the case in everyday care needs like colds, flu, minor injuries.
And what if (God forbid) you might one day need treatment for something that’s not minor? Medicaid doesn’t tempt me at all. I’m became diabetic a couple of years ago. There was no apparent reason for it; it just happened. My pancreas slowly stopped making insulin. Diabetes can cause problems in almost any part of the body: eyes, toes, heart, lungs, fingers, genitals, kidneys… That’s a lot of potential healthcare. I can’t imagine welfare and medicaid as a life choice.
> I don't think drug addicts are phycially able to work either, but they would be if the sought treatment. And again, I have personal knowledge that the government can and will provide free or inexpensive treatment for individuals who are willing to kick the habbit.
But I don’t think it’s as simple as being willing to kick the habit. Treatment for drug addiction isn’t easy and it requires the individual to believe that they can actually do it. When everything seems hopeless it’s hard to believe life can improve, and hard to find the energy to make the momentous effort necessary to tackle an addiction. Whenever I tackle my own addiction I do well for a little while but so far I’ve always gone back to the drug. And half the time I don’t really want to give it up. I’ve been trying to quit for five years, but my physical craving for nicotine always seems to win out in the end. So I can’t in all honesty point an accusing finger at people who can’t find the motivation to give up street drugs.
> I was a recipient of reduced cost psycological care, I didn't continue with it, for reasons that have no bearing on my point here....I didn't even ask for it. I just stupidly called the first number in the book. I wasn't aware that it was a county government run organization, but I can tell you this. The cost of the sessions were cheaper than what I pay in cigarettes and booze in a week, and that seems pretty minute to me. Could it not be possible that if I was poverty stricken and couldn't get or keep a job due to my alcohol adicition that I could of benefited from that situation?
I’m astonished at the idea that anyone might benefit from poverty or addiction. I guess I just don’t see that the so-called benefits are worth living in poverty for. If you have an alcohol addiction then I think it is entirely appropriate for you to receive reduced cost psychological care… in fact, if I ruled the world all healthcare would be free (well, paid for by taxes). If you are addicted to alcohol, I don’t think you have become addicted because you are bad or weak or foolish. It’s a terrible thing to happen to anyone, and you don’t deserve it. It seems less than ideal that people have to pay a lot of money for psychological care. I think there needs to be more compassion in society for people who become ill, whatever the illness.
Posted by Tamar on August 28, 2005, at 13:12:49
In reply to Re: slight rant, posted by Gabbix2 on August 27, 2005, at 20:54:21
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 14:55:58
In reply to Re: I Do Know » Gabbix2, posted by AdaGrace on August 28, 2005, at 8:38:29
I realize that it wasn't the major point you were making, but no, I don't believe that the small amount of abuse of the system makes it harder on those who need it, it's a common rationalization though.
There is more than enough money for people who need it desperately, it's the priorities of the government that make it unavailable to the needy and basically legislate poverty.
I detest hearing the weak, and the impoverished being blamed for something that is a result of money mis spent by the government. One that doesn't seem to find poverty and homelessness, and *proper* health care not token health care, as an issue significant enough to warrant more than lip service.
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