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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 120. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
I feel so ridiculous sometimes. I cannot stand bad grammar, either written or spoken. I cannot stand that people no longer understand the purpose and use of the apostrophe. I have been looking over MANY resumes recently since I am on a search committee for a position opening and the quality of grammar is absolutely atrocious. If I see a spelling mistake, misused apostophe, using "your" instead of "you're" I don't even consider them. People at work think I am totally extreme.
Please tell me I am not the only one who appreciates good grammar. Is anyone out there alarmed by what they see and hear?
Why is the apostrophe SO ABUSED????
DO they not learn grammar anymore in schools? Do they no longer diagram sentences? What's the deal?
Posted by partlycloudy on August 25, 2004, at 13:04:57
In reply to Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
I am ashamed to admit this: when I lived in England, I was actually surprised to find that the people who invented the language didn't know how to follow the rules!!! I must say that I also have never worked in an administrative position where I didn't have to practically rewrite everything the Boss would put in front of me to transcribe.
I guess I'm a grammar snob, but I like it.
Posted by fallsfall on August 25, 2004, at 14:50:13
In reply to Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
I'm with you, Honey.
I used to discard resumes with misspelling/grammar errors, too. I figured that if they didn't *know* what was right, that I didn't want them in my group (my group had to be really meticulous and detail oriented). And if they *did* know what was right, but were careless and didn't proofread it carefully enough, I didn't want them that way either.
However. I have LOTS of patience for misspellings etc in more casual contexts (like Babble posts, for instance). (I didn't always have that patience... I think I gained patience when I started needing others to be patient with me...) In these contexts I really want to know what someone means.
No. They don't diagram sentances any more.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 15:07:39
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse » Miss Honeychurch, posted by fallsfall on August 25, 2004, at 14:50:13
I am also very tolerant of spelling etc in casual context (I misspell all the time here and leave out words) but when you are applying for a job, you had better have 10 people look over your letter to ensure it is perfect. To me, if these people don't care about their first impression, they're not what I'm looking for.
Posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 15:37:35
In reply to Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
Miss Honeychurch,
I wasnt surprised to read you're post. Its so true that grammer and spelling is so bad these days! People really should take more time with there grammer because everyone's word choices are just so bad!Ha! Sorry. I too am a grammar person. Now I have to point out that I'm also a double-standard grammar person -- I like to use dashes all the time whether it is appropriate or not. And I know I make plenty of other mistakes, esp. when I'm not proofing myself. It's kind of "me."
But I do get bugged about incorrect apostrophes - it drive me NUTS! (NUT'S....hahaha.)
I saw one at my doctor's office the other day. It said "Please have insurance card's ready for Xerox." Give me a break! I almost had a heart attack right there! I wanted to take a pen and fix it, or say something to the assistant.
Another thing that bothers me is incorrect use of pronouns in professional situations. For example, "Give the report to Bob or I" should be "Give the report to Bob or ME." It's the object of the preposition...it's accusative case!! And everyone at works says it this way. They mimic each other. I used to hear this kind of misuse literally ten times a day.
Here's another one that has me screaming inside: "There's a party tonight at Mike and I's house" or "This gift is from Chris and I".
Are "I" and "me" becoming synonymous grammatically?
Anyway. (<--- sentence fragment.) I guess we all have our hot buttons.
But in answer to your question (yes, I know you did have one!) I too usually discard resumes on the spot for poor grammar. No questions asked. There are tons of skilled people who take the time and have the knowledge to proofread their resume. I don't need to spend time on those who don't/can't.
Thanks for sharing a gripe that is close to my heart.
It mean's a lot to me.
Jen'StarPS -
I read a review (but not the book itself) of a book called Eats Shoots and Leaves, which is supposedly about current word and grammar usage. The reviewer, however, said it was ironic that the grammar in the book (in the serious parts) was pretty bad. Made me want to read it just to see!I'm also reading a book by William Safire called
> I feel so ridiculous sometimes. I cannot stand bad grammar, either written or spoken. I cannot stand that people no longer understand the purpose and use of the apostrophe. I have been looking over MANY resumes recently since I am on a search committee for a position opening and the quality of grammar is absolutely atrocious. If I see a spelling mistake, misused apostophe, using "your" instead of "you're" I don't even consider them. People at work think I am totally extreme.
>
> Please tell me I am not the only one who appreciates good grammar. Is anyone out there alarmed by what they see and hear?
>
> Why is the apostrophe SO ABUSED????
>
> DO they not learn grammar anymore in schools? Do they no longer diagram sentences? What's the deal?
Posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 15:41:13
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse » fallsfall, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 15:07:39
I'm with you guys - very tolerant in social & fun situations (I'd better be...look at my grammar here! ) but strict in the workplace.
One thing I personally am not the best at (even when trying) is correct use of commas. I'm pretty good, but there are some complex rules!
Oh well.
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 16:02:45
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse, posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 15:41:13
the book is
The Right Word in the Right Place at the Right Time
by William Safire.
I just started it, and so far it's really interesting. He discusses popular incorrect usage of words & phrases.
I'd recommend it!
JenStar
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 16:07:33
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse » Miss Honeychurch, posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 15:37:35
The use of the nominative "I" instead of the accusative "me" drives me absolutely CRAZY!!! People think they are sounding so proper by using I for everything. I had 4 years of latin in highschool. I think this should be mandatory. Latin really helped me get a grip on grammar, it was invaluable.
Another gripe: VICA VERSA istead of VICE VERSA
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 16:09:28
In reply to The Safire Book, posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 16:02:45
Posted by gabbix2 on August 25, 2004, at 16:10:35
In reply to Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
I think poor english usage used to bother me a lot more than it does now. I think of language as a living thing. We don't speak now the way people did even 200 years ago, so I can't really get upset about what is 'correct' when it seems to be
a fairly arbitrary decision. As for spelling, I think it comes easily to some people and it's a gift, while others have a knack in different areas like algebra.
I definitely think that people should pay attention to spelling on resumes and signs even if they do struggle with it, but I can't be upset about it when I know that there is a possiblity that their spelling will be considered correct in 50 years.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 16:14:48
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse, posted by gabbix2 on August 25, 2004, at 16:10:35
Posted by gabbix2 on August 25, 2004, at 17:56:31
In reply to good points (nm) » gabbix2, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 16:14:48
Posted by Ilene on August 25, 2004, at 19:20:38
In reply to Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
In my daughter's high school they were not allowed to teach grammar or diagram sentences. I'm not sure why, since I don't think they were wedded to the whole language approach to teaching, which is more appropriate to the primary grades, anyway.
I used to be a spelling snob until I met a very intelligent person who could hardly spell. I think it's partly an inborn skill. If you are a visual thinker you will find it easier to spell. I used to think you would be good at geometry, too, but my son is putting the lie to that notion. He can spell but he can't visualize planes.
The history of spelling and grammar is interesting. Noah Webster is the reason why we American spell "honor" without the letter "u", for example. "Scissors" and "scythe" used to be spelled w/out the letter "c". It was inserted to be more like Latin words relating to cutting. I believe the use of "one" as opposed to the more natural "you" was modeled on the French "on". (On dit....) And the double negative was expelled from polite conversation by some nitpicking pedant.
BTW, a Washington bureaucrat nearly lost his job over the correct use of the word "niggardly".
Posted by partlycloudy on August 26, 2004, at 7:06:50
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Ilene on August 25, 2004, at 19:20:38
I think of spelling as an organic thing, just as words come in and out of favour and usage, and spelling changes with trips across the pond. I even like expressing myself in all lower case or upper case letters.
Punctuation, on the other hand, drives me bananas. Periods, commas, and semicolons; these are what gives the English language its vivacity for me.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 26, 2004, at 9:00:05
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse » Miss Honeychurch, posted by JenStar on August 25, 2004, at 15:37:35
That's my pet peeve, too. The misuse of "I." It's so pervasive now, in tv shows, in movies, etc.
By the way, I bought the book. What I've read of it so far is good - and amusing.
Now, to the question. It is about the word "data" and the way Americans use it vs how it is used in England.
In the UK, "data" is defined as the plural of datum, so when it is in a sentence it should be like "the data are consistant." The same applies to countries, because they have more than one person. So when talking about a soccer team it is "England are suffering from injuries this year"
The way I learned grammar, data is (in greek?roman?) the plural of datum, but in the current usage it is a *set* of factoids and sungular. The same with the soccer team - it is one team (set), so it is singular also.
Anyone else on this???
Posted by partlycloudy on August 26, 2004, at 9:05:07
In reply to Re: How funny and a question » JenStar, posted by AuntieMel on August 26, 2004, at 9:00:05
How about the word "troops" with regard to the war? Isn't a troop a number of soldiers? Isn't a "trooper" one of them? Yet they seem to be referred to as individual numbers; like, "3 troops died in Baghdad today." Drives me even more bananas.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 26, 2004, at 10:07:35
In reply to Re: How funny and a question » AuntieMel, posted by partlycloudy on August 26, 2004, at 9:05:07
Troops kills me every time. I thought a "troop" was a collective entity, not another word for an individual. But now it seems to be another word for soldier.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2004, at 10:53:01
In reply to Apostrophe Abuse, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 12:54:46
I am also mortified by the vast confusion between affect and effect, both transitive verb's with quite different meaning's. To affect is to influence, to effect is to bring about, there is a special case of affect called effect, I've had arguments over the distinction, and it troubles me to discover that the youth of our world are being misinformed by their high school teacher's, just like they fail to acknowledge the insidious comma splice. Lets not drift into discussion of gerund's and participle's. Clearly, Latin ought to be taught at high school's throughout the land. Maybe those troop's wouldn't be troop's if they learned to speak the language correctly.
Lar
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:02:16
In reply to Re: How funny and a question » JenStar, posted by AuntieMel on August 26, 2004, at 9:00:05
Yes, data ARE supposed to be plural here, and datum should be singular. I remember in engineering school our teachers used to lecture and lecture about this: "Say 'the data indicate' instead of the 'the data indicates' or 'the data show' in stead of 'the data shows.' People would still get it wrong. Despite my best efforts, I slip up sometimes too!
But people completely misuse it...it's possible that the use will even change here in the US!
Have you ever read stuff by the comedian George Carlin? He has a whole bit where he rants about the chronic mis-use of words & phrases. Some of it is pretty funny. (If you don't mind his rage and liberal use of cursewords.)
Also, Dave Barry used to periodically write his "Mr. Language Person" columns where he'd make fun of bad grammar & such.
If you haven't read those, you might enjoy them!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:08:37
In reply to Re: How funny and a question » partlycloudy, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 26, 2004, at 10:07:35
the troop thing gets me too! The news people blithely talk about "X troops were killed" and everytime I think: Did the army TELL them that soldiers are now "troops" or did they develop that fun little verbal gem all on the own? Where did this start?
What's wrong with using the word "soldier" anyway? Is there any kind of distinction (in the news minds) between "soldier" and "troop"? So far I think they only use "troop" when talking about death or injury.
Is there anyone here in the military who can clarify for us whether the word "troop" has a formal definition or usage that is different from "soldier"??
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:09:23
In reply to Re: affect/effect » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2004, at 10:53:01
Posted by gardenergirl on August 26, 2004, at 20:31:39
In reply to Re: How funny and a question » Miss Honeychurch, posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:08:37
> the troop thing gets me too! The news people blithely talk about "X troops were killed" and everytime I think: Did the army TELL them that soldiers are now "troops" or did they develop that fun little verbal gem all on the own? Where did this start?
>Perhaps it's a cost-cutting measure. Happens all the time in the corporate world. People now have to do the job of two or more. So now a soldier has to do the job of a troop?
;)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on August 26, 2004, at 20:33:28
In reply to Re: Apostrophe Abuse » JenStar, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 25, 2004, at 16:07:33
>
> Another gripe: VICA VERSA istead of VICE VERSADon't this really flustrate you? Makes I want to axe a pacific question. Ahh fergit it. Il'l go get somes pisghetti.
gg
Posted by AuntieMel on August 26, 2004, at 22:27:53
In reply to Re: affect/effect » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2004, at 10:53:01
Posted by sb417 on August 26, 2004, at 23:53:49
In reply to Re: How funny and a question » AuntieMel, posted by JenStar on August 26, 2004, at 11:02:16
The word data is plural (i.e., data are), but what about media? I argued with someone about this. I thought media should be plural, but my friend thought it should be singular. I'm speaking of the mass media.
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