![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan J on March 6, 2004, at 15:34:02
In reply to ABB Anybody But Bush, posted by Stryker88 on March 4, 2004, at 15:45:58
> After what this president has done, to the health care system, environment, economy, and the world I am voting for John Kerry!!! John Kerry in 2004
<<I'm kinda scared to jump in here, but I had a question about what you said. My asking this doesn't mean I either support Bush or don't support him. My field is health care/health insurance, though, and I'd really like your thoughts on how he's screwed up our health care system. Do you think he's actively done anything to screw it up, or do you think he's harmed it because he's just ignored it the past 4 years (Medicare Rx excluded).
Honestly just curious, not putting down any opinions. I *like* political discussions too.
Susan
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 15:41:30
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Racer, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 2:45:14
OK, deep breath, and let's give this a try. First of all, I do apologize for my wording about GWB: I do think he is dishonest, I do think he is greedy to the point of rapaciousness, I do think he is a cruel person, and I do think he insults the American People by his words and deeds. I won't apologize for that, but I will say that it frightens me a great deal, which may be why I react so strongly about politics right now. It seems as if both sides are underestimating both the man and his political machine. And I do think that taking the TV image out of it and looking critically at what he's done is the only thing that can save us from worse damage than has already been caused.
I am sorry that my tone, in writing, seemed sarcastic or like a put down to anyone when I suggested a Critical Reasoning class. Personally, I have found that my old CR text has been very helpful to me when I watch the news, and that was genuinely meant as a constructive suggestion. When I look around at the world these days, I hardly recognize anything. Children in schools are taught to take tests, rather than to learn. There's no innovation in industry or government, because no one is exploring alternatives -- it's the same things, done the same ways, without the individuality to innovate, and that frightens me, too. Every time I see another example of this, I realize again how valuable CR is, whether it's in recognizing the IKEA ad on TV as advocating immorality, or recognizing deceptiveness in a politician's speech. (And yes, I do recognize deceptiveness in both parties.)
Shortly before writing that ill-conceived response above, I heard on the news a little story -- almost buried beneath the Martha Stewart/Kobe Bryant/Scott Peterson/Jayson Williams infotainment -- about a staffer on the Bush campaign who had been found to have hacked into the computers of Democratic Party figures and copied memos to his own computer for use in the campaign. It was probably on CNN, and it was only a small blurb to fill in between celebrity shockers, but it sent such a jolt of fear through me, cold, hard fear. That should have been a lead story, it should have been covered in depth, it should not have been lost in the flood of "gee, how much jail time will Martha Stewart get?" (Answer: she's going to get prison time, and it's a personal tragedy for anyone to give up his or her freedom for any length of time. She has been convicted, she has no excuse, she brought it on herself, now can't we let it be her tragedy and not ours?) That little story, that a campaign staffer was spying on the opposition, happened about 30 years ago, too, didn't it? That frightens me, that we're so easily seduced by plausibility and the offer of something for nothing. That frightens me to the depths of my being.
To make this more personal, I'll tell you that I'm very old fashioned about a lot of things. I believe that anyone who enjoys priviledges has a responsibility to accept in return. Since, despite depression and all that comes with it, I do enjoy a great many priviledges, I feel responsible for holding up my end of the bargain. Here in America, we enjoy many priviledges that most of us -- including me -- take for granted. All that is asked in return is that we take part in the electoral process and show up for jury duty. It's icing if you can join a national service unit of some sort, but not everyone can. It's great if you do more than that, but not everyone can. Some people really and truly can't even afford to miss work for jury duty, but it's still a small price to pay for our court system. Not too long ago, when there were voter registrars in the parking lots around here, I overheard a man say he'd never registrer to vote, because he didn't want to be called for jury duty. Now, I can tell when my juror summons has been sent from the Registrar of Voters or the Department Of Motor Vehicles driver's license database, and it's most often the DMV's list. There's a guy who lives near me who refuses to assume his responsibility to his community, because he doesn't want to have to be bored and inconvenienced by jury duty. That frightens me, too. It's a small thing to ask, in the bigger picture, and I'm frightened to see how many people seem to want to shirk their responsibilities to their communities in ways like this. That's certainly part of my touchiness about these subjects.
As for the general tone of my response to Elle, I have to say that it was an emotional reaction. When I read her post to me, I felt that it was an ambush attempt, psychologically, and that, no matter what I wrote, the response would be the same, and that that response would be an attack on me. Of course, because of my {ahem} pre-emptive strike, we'll never know how sincere Elle's questions were, for which I apologize most sincerely. I don't apologize, mind you, for being suspicious. I only apologize for using the bad judgement of responding to a post that I believed could bring only ill will. For that, I am genuinely sorry, and I will attempt, in future, to remember to think before hitting send.
As for the intent of my original post, it was intended to be supportive of the poster who started this thread. "Hey, you! We share some viewpoints! We're not alone! We can all hang together, or we shall certainly hang separately." I believe my first post on the subject was actually about why I no longer support Ralph Nader personally.
Anyway, I'll try to learn from this, but please remember: it's really hard for an old dog to learn new tricks! I'll try hard to learn and go forth to sin no more. I hope that helps.
Posted by gabbix2 on March 6, 2004, at 16:23:13
In reply to I'll try » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 15:41:30
For Heavens Sake, if you're going to pontificate about your politics, you can hardly expect to escape being questioned about them!
I'm NO fan of George Bush but Elles questions were about as politely phrased as a questions can be.
You felt she might have ulterior motives because of her previous attack on you
You did not say you felt attacked you said that she attacked you. That's why I'm speaking up. Saying "my feelings were hurt" is not an attack it's a statement of feeling.
Not only that I've also seen Elle have polite mature disagreements with people on this board before.
Critical reasoning doesn't begin and end with politics.
Posted by fayeroe on March 6, 2004, at 17:43:16
In reply to Re: I'll try » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on March 6, 2004, at 16:23:13
~~~Faye is for a past president of Planned Parenthood and roe is for roe vs. wade.~~~
And that is the name of my lovely half-Airedale and half-Boxer girl that inhabits my home and my heart.......
My reactions against the present administration come from my feeling that a lot of our personal freedoms are going to be taken away from us. I don't want that. I don't want it for me and mine or you and yours.I am completely appalled by the hits that the environment is taking from this administration. I am from an area where clear-cutting was the norm and I am aghast that it is being suggested for other parts of the country. It completely destroys the mountains, streams and lakes. it removes all of the habitat for the deer, squirrels, bobcats, etc.
I am hurt that my older friends are so affected by the tampering with medicare that is going on now and will continue to go on under this administration.
I am scared stiff that there won't be any Social Security when it becomes my turn to get back what I put in.Those are a few of the reasons that I feel like I do and why I will vote for Kerry in the next election.
Oh, and did I mention the funding for public radio and the arts? Or the possibility that Comcast will be allowed to buy out Disney and become the largest cable/media group that we have? And do I want to hear both sides of the news? Yes, I do and if the FCC has it's way, the conservatives will control our airwaves. I could probably go on for another hour but this my story and I'm sticking to it and I won't argue about it..........
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 17:49:44
In reply to Re: I'll try » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on March 6, 2004, at 16:23:13
> You felt she might have ulterior motives because of her previous attack on you
> You did not say you felt attacked you said that she attacked you. That's why I'm speaking up.Actually, I think that I said I felt as if I were being ambushed. I don't think I said that Elle ambushed me, just that I felt that way. If I'm wrong about that, if what you read was that she ambushed me rather than that I felt ambushed, I guess I didn't do a very good job of it, did I? Aren't you glad you can express yourself more effectively than that?
> Critical reasoning doesn't begin and end with politics.
No, it doesn't. That doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to politics. It only means that it it is not limited to the social or political realm.
Posted by gabbix2 on March 6, 2004, at 18:12:16
In reply to Re: I'll try » gabbix2, posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 17:49:44
> Actually, I think that I said I felt as if I were being ambushed. I don't think I said that Elle ambushed me, just that I felt that way.>
>> My dear, whether you posted because you truly believe in the man or simply wanted a chance to attack me again,
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: I'll try » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on March 6, 2004, at 18:12:16
My mind and heart have always been with the people, the land, water, air and the animals. I love nature and hope to perserve it while I am alive.
I am a radical....left wing all the way. It's hard to find others now who really have the same bent. I love the freedoms that we celebrate in this country but....you don't have the same freedoms if you are: a person of color, a woman, poor, gay, from the Middle East......there are so many ways we can be disqualified from all these wonderful freedoms.
I am sad that a womans right to choose is being threatened.
I am sad that my environment is being threatened by a nuclear power plant five miles away.
I am sad that Judges that are right wing are being choosen for our courts.
I am sad that we choose to kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am sad that the President uses the 9/11 disaster to promote his run for the next election.
I want to be happy. I want to be uplifted by my life and the political environment.
I hope and pray that we see a new day.
I would dearly love to have Ralph Nader as president but I know that will never happen. So I will vote for the next best thing Kerry in 2004.
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 19:01:51
In reply to I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 18:39:34
You wanna know what's funny? I am not at all radical. In fact, I think of myself as being pretty conservative on most issues, and generally as a Pragmatist in the election booth. What I see happening with this administration looks like right wing radicalism.
Thanks for a very poetic post.
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 19:02:42
In reply to Re: I'll try » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on March 6, 2004, at 18:12:16
Posted by fayeroe on March 6, 2004, at 19:46:01
In reply to I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 18:39:34
****I feel that we are placed here as stewards......the earth is on loan to us. I have to be as good as I can to it while I am living here. Every living creature is dear to me because we all have a purpose here. It pains me deeply to see clear cuts, mountain-top coal mining, mining on the reservations, old-growth lumber harvesting, wasting of natural resources, pollution of the oceans and national treasures "give aways" to the rich. Until I draw my last breath, I hope to be worthy of living here and taking care of Mother Earth. And I'll fight for that right! If all I can do is hope to enlighten someone, then that is what I will try to do.
Posted by jay on March 6, 2004, at 21:18:56
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Racer, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 2:45:14
Bob, can we not say we support the people on here, but not George W. Bush?
Jay
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 22:06:58
In reply to Re: I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by fayeroe on March 6, 2004, at 19:46:01
Posted by Stryker88 on March 6, 2004, at 23:45:58
In reply to Re: I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by fayeroe on March 6, 2004, at 19:46:01
Well I agree with everyone's environmental views and opinions. President Bush past a few laws and took pressure of corporations and companies who are a hazard to the air, ground, and water. If you tell companies that it is up to them to be responsible to the environment and the government is not going to get involved, like W did, then my doubts are that any company is going to be any more responsible. If a corporation or air polluting factory or outlet is taking all measures to abide by envirmental laws then we should give them a tax break. We cannot give the ones who break the laws credit for being destructive.
Posted by Stryker88 on March 6, 2004, at 23:49:58
In reply to Re: I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by fayeroe on March 6, 2004, at 19:46:01
Is anyone aware that Bush if trying to make sure that if Condelezza Rice, the defense secretary, is summoned to appear in court he wants her to not be underoath at all. If she gives testimony regarding the lies told about WMD's in Iraq or about the CIA leak off the operative in the Middle East, Bush says she does not have to be underoath and basically she can lie as much as she wants to according to Bush. THIS IS AN OUTRAGEOUS POSITION BY W, EVERY OTHER AMERICAN CITIZEN HAS TO BE UNDEROATH, WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS
Posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 23:54:33
In reply to Re: good posts, environmental opinions agreed, posted by Stryker88 on March 6, 2004, at 23:45:58
Isn't that "anarchy?" OK, maybe not, but it's about responsibility. It has to start somewhere, otherwise no one wants it. So, for me, I try to be responsible in my own life. I don't shop at big chains, I preferencially buy things like yarn from local retailers even if they have to order it for me, or if I have to buy something a little different than I wanted. I drive a fuel efficient little car, and keep it in the best repair I can afford to so that it stays as clean as it can. I contribute in the ways I can, like donating blood or doing volunteer work when I can. I always show up for jury duty, and I vote in every election. It's not much, but it's about my limit right now.
And there are a couple of new books out there right now about corporate social responsibility. Two of them are about how much MORE profitable some companies have become since beginning socially conscious programs. Wow, what a thought, huh?
Thank you for starting this thread, despite a little heat.
Posted by Stryker88 on March 7, 2004, at 1:34:59
In reply to What's it called when you ask corps to be good? » Stryker88, posted by Racer on March 6, 2004, at 23:54:33
BUSH'S PLAN IS TO TAKE AWAY OVERTIME PAY FOR 2 MILLION AMERICANS, NOW WHAT KIND OF A PRESIDENT IS THAT, DOES HE CARE ABOUT THE KIDS OF THESE EMPLOYEES WHO MAY NOT GET ENOUGH FOOD, AND HOW DOES HE THINK THIS IS GOING TO HELP THE ECONOMY
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 7, 2004, at 17:46:24
In reply to Re: Bush regarding Condelezza Rice, posted by Stryker88 on March 6, 2004, at 23:49:58
> he's screwed up our health care system.
>
> Susan J> I do think he is dishonest, I do think he is greedy to the point of rapaciousness, I do think he is a cruel person, and I do think he insults the American People by his words and deeds.
>
> I'll try to learn from this, but please remember: it's really hard for an old dog to learn new tricks!
>
> Racer> basically she can lie as much as she wants to according to Bush.
>
> Stryker88I realize this is kind of new, but the goal of this site is support and education. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
I think that if political figures are put down, then posters who support them may also feel put down. So to keep posters from feeling put down, it may be necessary not to put down political figures. To post as if they were posters themselves.
As usual, it tends to be more civil to use I-statements. I thought Fayeroe and Jai demonstrated that well:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040305/msgs/321245.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040305/msgs/321277.html> if you're going to pontificate about your politics...
>
> gabbix2So, keeping that, plus the usual civility guidelines, in mind, could you all please rephrase what I quoted above?
> my original post ... was intended to be supportive of the poster who started this thread. "Hey, you! We share some viewpoints! We're not alone! We can all hang together, or we shall certainly hang separately.
>
> Racer> can we not say we support the people on here, but not George W. Bush?
>
> JayIt's great to support someone else, but as with non-political topics, please try to find ways to do that that don't involve accusing or putting down a third party.
Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged. Saying you disagree with or don't support someone isn't accusing or putting them down.
I hate to limit freedom of speech, but I think sometimes it's for the better. Thanks for your patience,
Bob
Posted by gabbix2 on March 7, 2004, at 18:14:47
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Susan J » Racer » gabbi » Stryker88, posted by Dr. Bob on March 7, 2004, at 17:46:24
Instead of saying "if you are going to pontificate about your politics"
I should have said "If you are going to speak openly and boldly about your political opinions"
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 8, 2004, at 8:09:26
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Susan J » Racer » gabbi » Stryker88, posted by Dr. Bob on March 7, 2004, at 17:46:24
Thanks Dr. Bob, I worked long and hard on that post. I used the rules that Dinah gave us and labored over it till it was really my heart and head speaking and not my anger and the desire to get mad. Anger is such a seductive force...I can get just as angry as anyone else maybe even more.
I am an old radical...I cut my teeth on discussions around the dinner table with my sisters and dad. Dad was the conservative and we were the radicals. He and I would lock horns. Some times I would end up in tears....he would always support me and badger me. I began to see holes in his logic and would pick away at these. He was very encouraging. We debated everything.
But really I didn't change till I did the EMDR and I got to see myself as something other than a victim. I got a glimps of my personal liberation emotionally. So I am not totally free but my inner sight is definately expanded. I can now learn how to talk a new way that will include people. I still get real upset and have my moments of unbeliveable outrage but I back away now.
I take another look.
ponder.
I just don't see the other person as the evil person I once would have thought. Not that there isn't evil in the world I do believe that. But I am not so stuck in my vision, my ideas, my thoughts...I can now listen to others. We can disagree but I am not going to convice the other person to agree with me.
Maybe there is a new place we can come to, we can create together. I feel more like a co-creator in my life.
thanks for listening, I'd love some response.
Posted by Dinah on March 8, 2004, at 10:30:14
In reply to I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by Jai Narayan on March 6, 2004, at 18:39:34
> My mind and heart have always been with the people, the land, water, air and the animals. I love nature and hope to perserve it while I am alive.
Mine too. I consider that a very conservative position. What can be more conservative than to admit our duty to our descendents.
> I am a radical....left wing all the way. It's hard to find others now who really have the same bent. I love the freedoms that we celebrate in this country but....you don't have the same freedoms if you are: a person of color, a woman, poor, gay, from the Middle East......there are so many ways we can be disqualified from all these wonderful freedoms.
It's a shame that a person of color, the poor, gays, and those from the Middle East are sometimes treated without the respect that our constitution guarantees them. I'm not sure that's a problem of our country so much as a problem of hearts and minds of people. (I just refuse to include women in there. I've always been treated with respect, and no has attempted to repress me because of my gender.) But I think if you look around the world, you might find that people from the Middle East and people of color and people of differing religions, and women, and gays enjoy a lot more freedoms here than they would elsewhere.
> I am sad that my environment is being threatened by a nuclear power plant five miles away.
Although nuclear plants are generally cleaner alternatives than coal based ones. And those of on computers are probably not averse to electricity.
> I am sad that Judges that are right wing are being choosen for our courts.
I am happy that the constitutional protection between the branches of government is being shored up, and that legislation is being left to the... legislature.
> I am sad that we choose to kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am sad that a group of people decided to come to our country and kill thousands of innocent people on their way to work. I'm sad that the regime of Afghanistan provided refuge for those people, while not allowing their women to get an education or receive adequate healthcare. I am sad that the people of Afghanistan have lived through decades of war that started way before we got there. I'm glad my brother is on his way to Afghanistan to help with the rebuilding of a long insufficient infrastructure. I'm happy that he met someone who reassured him that the Afghan people had a generally positive attitude towards the military working on rebuilding that infrastructure. I hope for a peaceful and prosperous future for the people of that country.
I'm sad that the leadership of Iraq chose to place their people in harms way by not living up to the conditions of the peace agreement put in place at the end of the war in which they invaded their neighbor. I feel very sorry for the people of Iraq who had to live under years and years of an oppressive regime. I hope that women and men of that country learn to live without fear, and I hope that they complain about their government or even the U.S. every day, if only because they *can* without fear of reprisal.
> I am sad that the President uses the 9/11 disaster to promote his run for the next election.
I'm sad that there was a 9/11 mass murder. (I always tend to think of disasters as being earthquakes, mudslides, fires, etc.)
> I want to be happy. I want to be uplifted by my life and the political environment.
Yeah, me too.
> I hope and pray that we see a new day.Definitely.
> I would dearly love to have Ralph Nader as president but I know that will never happen. So I will vote for the next best thing Kerry in 2004.I'm guessing I'll abstain. I could change my mind.
Posted by bookgurl99 on March 8, 2004, at 20:41:55
In reply to ABB Anybody But Bush, posted by Stryker88 on March 4, 2004, at 15:45:58
I totally agree -- John Kerry. :D
. . . and I have been ticked off to see the way George Bush has tried to manipulate people using images of 9-11. He's run that method into the ground. I hate the ad that states that he's 'brave' and a 'leader,' in 'times of change.' Times are always changing, George. I'm not buying it.
Posted by Jai Narayan on March 8, 2004, at 23:01:16
In reply to Re: I am impressed, what articulate posts, posted by Dinah on March 8, 2004, at 10:30:14
> Mine too. I consider that a very conservative position. What can be more conservative than to admit our duty to our descendents.
*In conservative do mean to conserve?
>(I just refuse to include women in there. I've always been treated with respect, and no has attempted to repress me because of my gender.)
**what about Martha Stewart?But I think if you look around the world, you might find that people from the Middle East and people of color and people of differing religions, and women, and gays enjoy a lot more freedoms here than they would elsewhere.
*What about the jails in Cuba?
> Although nuclear plants are generally cleaner alternatives than coal based ones.
*Why does the frisky atom have a half life of 100,000 years if it's so safe?
* I am still sad that the President uses the 9/11 disaster to promote his run for the next election.
Let's agree to disagree, Peace?
You have enough on your plate right now.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2004, at 23:33:11
In reply to Re:Please rephrase that. Sorry, posted by gabbix2 on March 7, 2004, at 18:14:47
Posted by Dinah on March 9, 2004, at 1:00:32
In reply to Let's agree to disagree, Peace?, posted by Jai Narayan on March 8, 2004, at 23:01:16
Is my very favorite hobby. I can't do it often enough. :)
Posted by EscherDementian on March 10, 2004, at 5:48:24
In reply to Re: ABB Anybody But Bush » Jai Narayan, posted by Racer on March 4, 2004, at 20:45:16
h'Ray, Racer.... me too, & *deep bow to you*
Just an idea here~
check out TrueMajority.org (i think that's it)It's Ben from Ben&Jerry's 'soul-push'.
What do you think?
(& i LOVED your take/analogy on 'body memories', even though it was 'on a different track')
Mobius,
Escher
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.