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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2004, at 23:15:11
In reply to Re: Jealous women at work - what to do about them?, posted by shar on January 29, 2004, at 22:16:27
You sound like my kind of woman! Although I was a child in the sixties, I feel like I would have fit in with feminists who paved the way for where we are now (still a ways to go) and in the humanist movement.
Thanks for such an eloquent post and for sharing of yourself!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2004, at 23:19:01
In reply to Re: Jealous women at work - what to do about them?, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2004, at 19:35:31
Great post, Dinah. I just have one quibble.
>Why Karen Kay and Gabbi and Tabitha and Slinky and Elle and Miss Honeychurch and Gardenergirl (sorry if I've missed some of you beautiful women)
YOU FORGOT TO INCLUDE DINAH! She absolutely belongs in the above group!
I'm sure it was just an oversight. But I wanted to make sure that she is included for her beauty. It means a great deal. You mean a great deal.
gg
Posted by Psychopoppy on January 29, 2004, at 23:31:29
In reply to I would not do that, posted by PhoenixGirl on January 28, 2004, at 16:35:09
Hi
I guess I did not explain myself well enough. I certainly was not suggesting you putting yourself down. Maybe it was my interpretation but the sense I got from your original post was that perhaps these jealous women you mention were somehow not connecting with you or were finding you unapproachable. And another feeling I got from you post was that you'd like to be able to get past this cold distant vibe and perhaps get to a warmer and more comfortable place in your job-social environment. And, thats why I suggested sort-of ice-breaker stratgies. I dont mean to assume that you have in any way brought this upon yourslef and need to do things to fix it. Although I have seen some women who seem to have distanced themselves from the general populace of a work place (for whatever reason), and then later it was revealed that they felt unconnected to others and felt as if other were jealous of them (again for many reasons) and hence thought it best to keep a cold arm's length from everyone. Of course, the jealousy is real and (quite stupid really in my opinion) and some women seem to have a pretty high bitch-factor than others...but its not always a lost cause, as in some women could overcome that given time and more knowledge.
So, basically in my post, I meant to suggest an approach to connect to people (if that is something you want from your work place). Of course putting oneself down is not what I would do either, but then bragging and conceit is the other extreme. What I suggested was something is between. Just a way to connect to someone with a somewhat low self-esteem by just showing to them that you're not perfect. I dont mean to offend you but as we all know very well, noone is perfect.... so acknowledging that is not putting yourself down......but rather a sign of self-assuredness.down with jealousy, and vive la tolerance !
Posted by Psychopoppy on January 29, 2004, at 23:59:50
In reply to Jealous women at work - what to do about them?, posted by PhoenixGirl on January 27, 2004, at 19:20:36
I totaly second all of those who have commented (and reiterated) the ludicrousy and inaccuracy in making broad, general statements and assumptions regarding people of any one race or any one culture or any one sex or whatever combination thereof.
I have lived on five different continents in my life (and travelled to many countries) and what I have learnt is that the one thing that every place has in common is... their inhabitants, although having certain group commonalities, exist in all different varieties and variations.
So no matter how big or small a group you consider (ex. Americans, Bostonians, Upper-east-side blacks, folks who work at Enron Corp., Building 7, the sixth floor, marketing division, all the division asst.managers.....), there's plenty of individual differences to go around and if one took the time to actually look, the variety (and diversity) would become obvious.SO, when I hear people say things like..."I think that whole group of people hates me for whatever reason or that they all behave in such-and-such way towards people who are like this-or-that (double generalization), then its so screamingly clear that the analysis needs to be turned inwards, as in, into the self.
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 0:57:10
In reply to Re: Jealous women at work - what to do about them? » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2004, at 23:19:01
Thanks to both of you. :) But I just wanted to make clear that I was merely referring to the body I find myself in. Fact is that I'm on the range of plain to ugly and I don't mind that a bit. I could look much better if I lost a lot of weight. Some faces wear extra weight well. Mine doesn't. My therapist says I could slide a bit up the scale if I bothered with proper hair and makeup, but obviously it isn't worth it to me. So I really wasn't putting myself down. It was just an honest appraisal.
I've told this story before, but in case you haven't heard it. My looks are very characteristic in my family. So much so that my mother once was stopped on the train by a stranger and asked if she were a (Grandmother's maiden name), which she was. :) And found out a lot about that family's origins in the process.
I look just like my mother who looks just like my grandmother. My mother is an unattractive woman. But my grandmother? She was beautiful. And if you ever forgot it, you just had to look at the reflection in my grandfather's eyes. I wish I could tell which one I looked more like, but you just can't see it from a mirror.
Posted by All Done on January 30, 2004, at 1:17:12
In reply to Re: Karen Kay and Gardener Girl, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 0:57:10
But my grandmother? She was beautiful. And if you ever forgot it, you just had to look at the reflection in my grandfather's eyes. I wish I could tell which one I looked more like, but you just can't see it from a mirror.
>>Oh, Dinah. You have such a lovely way with words.
Would we be able to see your beauty in the reflection in your husband's eyes? What about your son's? Even your puppy's?
I'm guessing we would...
Posted by shar on January 30, 2004, at 1:29:19
In reply to Re: Karen Kay and Gardener Girl » Dinah, posted by All Done on January 30, 2004, at 1:17:12
I have no doubt that you are the most beautiful person in the world in your doggies eyes, because dogs can see the essential 'us'. I think I am to mine, and it matters.
And, as far as beauty--physical things fade with time, which is why it's so sad to be overly concerned with them. I'm in the 'respect my elders' crowd, even if they are no longer pretty they are so many more important things. I bet if we met (even tho I'd be the elder) I might find you extremely appealing even if you are not beautiful. Appeal is one of those qualities that last, in sort of ephemeral, interesting ways.
Don't deny it! If we meet and you're ugly and unappealing, I'll tell you straight out....:)
Shar
Posted by shar on January 30, 2004, at 1:31:38
In reply to Dinah, posted by shar on January 30, 2004, at 1:29:19
good old Abe, who wasn't terribly handsome, but he was a beautiful man.
S
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 7:19:04
In reply to Re: Karen Kay and Gardener Girl » Dinah, posted by All Done on January 30, 2004, at 1:17:12
Hmmm, in my husband's eyes I wish I saw what I saw in grandpa's eyes. But I see the girl he fell for many years ago, and I can live with that.
Those rare times that my son's eyes lose the glaze of Star Wars and Nicktoons, I see a lovely mom reflected in them.
And Harry, oh Harry. He can gaze at me for hours, watching my every changing expression. And when he goes, I don't know what I'll do without the vision of myself I see in his eyes.
Who needs mirrors anyway? :)
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 7:20:57
In reply to Also to Dinah (I forgot to mention), posted by shar on January 30, 2004, at 1:31:38
You mean Abe wasn't handsome??!!!! I had never noticed! ;)
(Thanks, Shar)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:43
In reply to Re: Karen Kay and Gardener Girl, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 0:57:10
From the description you have given about yourself in the past, I think you sound absolutely perfect. And I think that your therapist is a fool to try to suggest you could "slide up the scale" (what the hell??? does he keep a scale?) by keeping proper makeup and hair. I personally think pigtales (that's right, isn't it?) are SOOO cute and still wish my hair was long enough to wear them. Also, I wish I had the natural beauty and CONFIDENCE to go outside without makeup, like you do. And, let's not forget you inner beauty. Now, I could go back and research this site, but I'm lazy and lack motivation. I'm quite convinced that you are one of the lovliest people I know. Physical beauty is only enhanced by a beautiful spirit. So, that makes you So very beautiful.
BTW, my mother's side of the family has a history of mental illness. While the women tend to be lovely in their youth, they die very young, usually around 50. And they start going grey around 18. When they reach their 30's they appear to be more around 50. They look horrible! That's what I'm up against. My dad's side is different and live to be very old. But, at this point, it looks like I take more after my mother's side... Oh boy! Something more for me to worry about :)
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 8:00:53
In reply to Re: Jealous women at work - what to do about them? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 29, 2004, at 22:43:41
You are so beautiful! Fabulous! Gorgeous!
And it's not *just* the lovely arrangement of facial features, the careful attention to grooming, or the quite admirable body.
It's also the way you support those who are in distress, and your wonderful way of reaching out to include everyone. And most of all, those wonderful smiles you keep in your handbag to give out to those who could use one (and those who don't even realize they could use them).
Which kind of makes it sound as if you need to perform to be beautiful. That isn't the case of course. Those things just illuminate your beauty. If you should find yourself short of smiles to hand out some days, we'd still see the beauty.
Posted by gabbix2 on January 30, 2004, at 13:22:22
In reply to Re: Jealous women at work - what to do about them?, posted by shar on January 29, 2004, at 22:16:27
Yeah, it made sense..
>Stereotypes really concern me a lot. Whether
they are about women or blacks or eye-ties (like me) or short people or smart people.....they may contain a kernel of truth, but by and large they simply don't hold up very well if one looks at the gender/ethnicity/brains of individuals rather than "them" (groups). And, even looking at groups is pretty tricky. A body of research has shown that roles more than traits differentiate males and females, and there are greater within-group (same sex) differences than between-group differences (male vs. female) when measuring traits.Finally, about men not being competitive with each other in the way that women do, it might not look the same because certain behaviors are proscribed for men, but it happens. And, sometimes the solution is to take out on women what they'd like to do to the men at work.
Posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:16:32
In reply to Re: Reflections » All Done, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 7:19:04
I don't care what you say.. I'm sure you are adorable, with your pigtails, eccentric clothing, and slightly quizzical expression..
Posted by gabbix2 on January 30, 2004, at 21:53:22
In reply to Re: Reflections » Dinah, posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:16:32
> I don't care what you say.. I'm sure you are adorable, with your pigtails, eccentric clothing, and slightly quizzical expression..
That's perfect!
Posted by PhoenixGirl on January 30, 2004, at 22:46:50
In reply to Jealous women at work - what to do about them?, posted by PhoenixGirl on January 27, 2004, at 19:20:36
Those are a lot of interesting comments from everyone who posted. I want to remind some of the people, though, that there are patterns of characteristics among demographic groups. Some people often have a filter that interprets that statement as "all people of group X have a particular quality". A behavior or characteristic can become so common in a group of people that it can identified as a pattern in that group. See the difference?
This world is not cultural vanilla pudding - there are differences between groups and between individuals.
Posted by PhoenixGirl on January 30, 2004, at 22:58:41
In reply to Jealous women at work - what to do about them?, posted by PhoenixGirl on January 27, 2004, at 19:20:36
Somebody mentioned something like this, and it's true - The resentful women see the way I look AND how I keep to myself, and they assume it must be because I think I'm better than they are. I've noticed this perception a lot. There is the assumption that attractive women think they're better than other women, so if an attractive woman doesn't mingle much, that's proof that she's stuck-up. You know, there are a number of people at work who keep to themselves, and no one thinks that they're snotty. For example, there's a feeble old man in the cubicle next to me who almost never socializes with others, and is very quiet. Many people think that it's endearing - what a sweet gentle man! They sure don't think that he is snotty about how pretty he is...
Posted by shar on January 31, 2004, at 1:46:23
In reply to One important thing, posted by PhoenixGirl on January 30, 2004, at 22:58:41
First, let me say, thanks Gabbix, for saying I've made sense... And...
> The resentful women see the way I look AND how I keep to myself...and they assume it must be because I think I'm better than they are.
[an assumption on your part?]> I've noticed this perception a lot.
[a predispostion on your part?]>There is the assumption that attractive women think they're better than other women, so if an attractive woman doesn't mingle much, that's proof that she's stuck-up.
........Could that be true? That if an 'attractive woman' thinks she is better than other women she may not deign to interact with them? Or, is that simply another assumption/predisposition on the 'attractive woman's' part?
>You know, there are a number of people at work who keep to themselves, and no one thinks that they're snotty. For example, there's a feeble old man in the cubicle next to me who almost never socializes with others, and is very quiet. Many people think that it's endearing - what a sweet gentle man! They sure don't think that he is snotty about how pretty he is...
...........a 'feeble old man' hardly has anything to offer to other men (which seems to be the topic/threatening factor at hand) and is definitely not as 'pretty' as this nubile female? And not a 'threat' to all the other 'ordinary' women (non-nubile?) that inhabit other cubicles?
...........Gee, I find myself overwhelmed by the fact that "beauty" (as in Aphrodite) is such an issue in the workplace. There is so much more to women than physical beauty it is sad to see it still a major defining characteristic. I can't help but wonder if there isn't more to the story, and, maybe, a very limited view of women in general.
..........Gee, again, I've encountered so many 'beautiful' women who far surpassed their physical characteristics to achieve greater things that 'beauty' doesn't matter because they have so much more to offer. It may just be that 'ugly' women shaped our futures, and it is to them we owe gratitude.
But, then, who am I to say what 'matters'?
Yours,
Shar
Posted by gabbix2 on January 31, 2004, at 11:05:08
In reply to Re: One important? thing, posted by shar on January 31, 2004, at 1:46:23
Well I don't know what you look like so these words aren't coming from the mouth (or typewriter) of someone being eaten alive with envy. I've only read only two posts of yours and have exceptionally strong feelings about the comments in them (especially when they are put in contrast to one another)
The feelings I have, have nothing at all to do with your appearance.> Women are generally insecure about their
looks and resentful of other women who have something they don't. I am certainly not saying this in arrogance, it's simply the truth.>Anyway, there is a hate-at-first-sight phenomenon that happens, especially among black women. I live in Atlanta, and there is a black culture here that resents whites
> People are mostly cattle, eating up whatever is fed to them by corporate America and the government - the Siamese twins. People are dumber, have shorter attention spans, and don't even give a shit about what's right anymore.
You're probably pretty, there are a lot of pretty/beautiful women around, but the world just doesn't go around thinking about how pretty people are and focussing on it.
There is no one physical *type* that everyone thinks is beautiful; and the reality is if someone thinks an extreme one way, chances are someone else is thinking an extreme way in the other.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 31, 2004, at 11:20:19
In reply to Re: One important? thing, posted by gabbix2 on January 31, 2004, at 11:05:08
I have to agree with gabbi. I know that some women don't like me. But it has nothing to do with the way I look, at least I really don't perceive that to be the reason. I think the reason that some women I work with don't like me is because of my attitude. I'm very blunt. I'm very flirty. I'm very loud. I'm rather rude. But, I'm also very kind. I do socialize with the women I work with, but some women tend to dislike me based on the way I am. That's fine with me. Take me or leave me. I really couldn't care less. But, I highly doubt anyone's jealous of me based on my appearance. If they are, well, I'm flattered :)
Now, to the original poster (sorry, I'm bad with names, forgive me please)... Maybe these women are somewhat rude to you because they see you as being somewhat prissy and aloof. If you don't socialize with them, then they would tend to find you arrogant in a way. If you just assume they are jealous of you because of the way you look, you may be off base. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to add a different point of view.
You have a right to talk to people or not talk to people. But, if you don't talk to people at work, they would naturally assume that you think you are "better than them." I'm not suggesting that you start talking to them, but they may not be jealous of you. They may just think you are stuck up. Now, I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying that that may be the impression they have of you, if you don't socialize with them. See what I'm saying. And I'm not trying to be offensive. I hope you aren't getting that from me. I've just taken some meds, so I may not be expressing myself just right. Oh...If you are offended post back and I'll reread this and see what I wrote. But the ladies in your office may have the impression that you are aloof. If may have nothing to do with the way you look.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2004, at 15:23:02
In reply to Re: Reflections » Dinah, posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:16:32
I like that vision of myself. :) I think I'll print it out to see myself in your eyes every once in a while.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2004, at 15:27:13
In reply to Re: Reflections » Dinah, posted by tabitha on January 30, 2004, at 17:16:32
And how did you know about the quizzical expression? I'm constantly tilting my head to the left. :) And one of my few genuine attributes is a pair of reasonably nice brows that don't need to be plucked and come to a natural point that is perfect for quizzical. :P
Posted by tabitha on January 31, 2004, at 16:01:24
In reply to Re: Reflections » tabitha, posted by Dinah on January 31, 2004, at 15:27:13
> And how did you know about the quizzical expression? I'm constantly tilting my head to the left. :) And one of my few genuine attributes is a pair of reasonably nice brows that don't need to be plucked and come to a natural point that is perfect for quizzical. :P
I just figured you'd display some sort of cute earnest effortfulness mixed with vulnerability... quizzical seemed about right. Now I'll add that leftward head-tilt and shapely eyebrows to my mental image. Adorabler and adorabler!
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 31, 2004, at 17:22:15
In reply to Re: Reflections » tabitha, posted by Dinah on January 31, 2004, at 15:27:13
What I wouldn't give for some gorgeous, natural brows. Lucky girl!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 31, 2004, at 18:55:11
In reply to Re: Reflections » Dinah, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 31, 2004, at 17:22:15
After years of waxing, I am finally letting mine grow free!! Yahoo!! And I have the unibrow! Oh, the horror! But, mine were waxed so thin, they were barely there. And a bit too far off. They made my eyes appear to be too close together, I think... I even brought it to the attention of my friends and now they endlessly tease me that "My eyes are too close together." Well, at least I don't have monkey toes, as another one of my friends does... That's what's great about my girlfriends. We can point out that we have monkey toes or eyes that are too close together and not be offended. I think???
I'm waiting to get my brows reshaped and hoping the unibrow stays away...
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