![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 233. Go back in thread:
Posted by geri122 on November 29, 2003, at 9:44:08
In reply to Re: death » geri122, posted by SLS on November 28, 2003, at 14:36:19
Admitting it is the hardest thing. Right now as far as im concerned it does not exist. I can run from it and not worry, i can hide and know that no now is looking. As soo as i tell all of that wil be the opposite. YOur right making that transition is the biggest step i can take, but until im ready.. i don't know if i can really do that!
Posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2003, at 10:05:26
In reply to Re: death, posted by geri122 on November 29, 2003, at 9:44:08
Hi Geri,How was your night last night? I couldn't sleep and wondered if you were awake at 3AM.
Will you be able to see your friend today? Have you told her that you are feeling worse?
School will start up in a couple of days. Do you have a favorite teacher? My oldest daughter was very close to her French teacher - she had Mono when she was a freshman and the French teacher did some tutoring with her in the summer so she could catch up (she's a French major in college now!). My favorite teacher was the Band director. My youngest favorite is last year's World Cultures' teacher - she also had him for study hall. She doesn't really like social studies, but she and the teacher really clicked. My son liked the other French teacher - my son is now in the Army and he and the French teacher actually sent a letter back and forth. Who is your favorite teacher? The one who knows you and cares about you? Can you start thinking about maybe talking to that teacher on Monday? Just to say something like "I've been feeling really depressed, but I don't know what to do because I can't talk to my parents". Maybe your friend could come with you. Could you stay after school and talk to that teacher, or do you have to take a bus home? Sometimes if you let a teacher know during the day that you want to see them after school they can be sure to stay a little late to see you. You could even start the conversation like "I have a problem, but I don't want to tell my parents. If I tell you, can you promise not to tell my parents unless I agree?". The only time they might not be able to do that is if they think that your life is in danger (but you want to live, so that should be OK). We know that there are teachers at your school who care about you and are concerned about you, because someone went to talk to the principal. Can you guess who would have gone to talk to the principal? The teachers do want to help. They will have a better idea of what resources are available for you in your town than I would.
Thinking of you.
Posted by SLS on November 29, 2003, at 11:04:21
In reply to Re: death, posted by geri122 on November 29, 2003, at 9:44:08
> Admitting it is the hardest thing. Right now as far as im concerned it does not exist. I can run from it and not worry, i can hide and know that no now is looking. As soo as i tell all of that wil be the opposite. YOur right making that transition is the biggest step i can take, but until im ready.. i don't know if i can really do that!
I don't know if the following link will help. It is a review of the grieving process (as modeled by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, M.D. in 1969). Although it addresses how terminally ill patients deal with their impending death, it is really applicable to many types of loss.http://pages.ivillage.com/jill_m46/betrayedspouses/id16.html
The five stages of grieving in order:
denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance
There is no way that you can be expected to reach acceptance of your condition overnight.I accept that I have a neurological mental illness, but I fuse to accept the illness itself. That's what keeps me alive.
- Scott
Posted by geri122 on November 30, 2003, at 17:47:52
In reply to Re: death » geri122, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2003, at 10:05:26
i do have a favorite teacher. but i don't have her this year. She was my teacher freshman and sophmore year. She is always there for me... she was one of the teachers that said something to my principle. I know that she cares and i know that she wants to help.. but like i said it is not that easy. I know that you guys are probally tired of hearing that but i can't change that. Im scared and i don't feel they won't understand. i will get there, i mean im trying but i will take some time.
I am taking French now. It is an ok class, i don't really like the teacher but what can i do?
Posted by geri122 on November 30, 2003, at 17:50:33
In reply to Re: death » geri122, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2003, at 10:05:26
by the way.. i was up at 3 y do you ask
Posted by fallsfall on November 30, 2003, at 22:27:26
In reply to Re: death, posted by geri122 on November 30, 2003, at 17:50:33
I asked if you were up at 3AM because I was up at 3AM, and I was thinking about you. We could have talked online. Lots of times when people are depressed (and distressed, as you are), they don't sleep well. I wanted to know if you were sleeping well, plus I could have used the company. I wasn't asleep because I have depression and I have a lot of stress right now, so I'm not sleeping well.
I'm glad you have a favorite teacher, and that you have had her for 2 years. That helps a lot. And if you think that she was one of the teachers who went to talk to your principal that is even better. You know that this teacher cares about you and wants to help. So you know that you wouldn't be "bothering" her if you asked to talk to her, right? Teachers who end up being favorite teachers are usually not teachers just because they get paid to do that. They are teachers because they like kids and they want to help kids learn and grow up. A teacher like that would be honored to be asked to help - it will make her know that she is really making a difference to one of her students. Since you said that she was your favorite teacher, I assume that you trust her. That if she promised you something that you know that she won't go against her promise. Is that true? Do you trust her?
What if you said to her "I have a problem, and I need some help. But I can't tell anyone about this problem because I'm afraid they will tell my parents and I am NOT WILLING to let my parents know about this. So that leaves me with my problem, but no one to help me with it. If I tell you my problem can you promise that you won't tell my parents? I know that there are some things that you are required by law to report - like child abuse, or if you think that a student is planning to kill somebody. Do you know of any OTHER things that you would have to report even if you promised me that you wouldn't? So if I tell you my problem and my problem ISN"T one of those things, do you promise that you won't tell ANYONE ELSE about my problem?"
You would want to make sure that she understands that you are going to expect her to keep her promise and keep your problem from your parents and from everyone else (including the principal and other people who work in the school). And that your problem is a serious one - that's why you are letting her know that there are things that she HAS to report by law (and that law would be stronger than her promise). If she's not sure what she has to report by law (it probably varies from state to state), then don't tell her until she has figured out what things she would have to report and has told you what they are.
Be sure to say that "the student is planning to kill somebody" exactly that way. From what you have said, you are not PLANNING to kill SOMEBODY - "somebody" does includes you, by the way. You are thinking about death, that is true, and even thinking that your own death might not be such an awful thing - but that is different than having a plan. A plan would be how and when and stuff. You haven't been thinking about how and when and stuff, have you? (If you have, then we need to talk more right away. There is a reason the law is written that way).
So, if you can honestly tell her that you are not planning to kill anybody, and she promises not to tell anybody unless you say it is OK - Do you think you could talk to her? It made me feel so much better when someone else knew. Particularly when that someone actually might have some idea how to help me so I wouldn't have to be so miserable. Please talk to her. You can bring your friend if that helps, you could ask your friend to stand in the hall so she would be there if you needed her. Your teacher will understand - teachers get all sorts of training on that kind of stuff. She won't think you are faking it or stupid or anything. She'll just want you to feel better.
Please try!
Posted by geri122 on December 1, 2003, at 13:46:36
In reply to Re: death » geri122, posted by fallsfall on November 30, 2003, at 22:27:26
i thought about telling her. and yes i do trust her.
To tell you the truth ive been struggling with some stuff this weekend, the reason why i didn;t enjoy thanksgiving, (on top of all the feelings. Friday.. the day after thanksgiving... was the one year anivesary of my grandfathers death. I just didn;t want to have to deal with it you know. I mean i lost someone that was a comfort... its hard. Well also.. my neighbor, someone who has been there for me since i was born. She is really old and is not doing so well. They are selling the house.. and she is in the hospital. Everyone is leaving me.. and it suxs
Posted by LynneDa on December 1, 2003, at 14:28:48
In reply to Re: death, posted by geri122 on December 1, 2003, at 13:46:36
Hi Geri - I'm sorry to hear your T-G wasn't all that great. Anniversaries are very difficult.
When you talked about no one caring if you died - that is a very lonely feeling and I can identify with it. But, is there a side of your brain, heart or soul that knows that is not true? I ask that because I've felt that way before and almost convinced myself of it many times. Please don't let that happen to you! What are your parents like? I don't know anyone as an adult that could ever get over the death of their child. It's an impossibility. You have so much ahead of you and as you reach out for help and feel better (& you will eventually not feel like this - it is just temporary!) you will find your thoughts and attitudes changing. It will be such a relief!!!
I agree with the Fallsfall - if you have a teacher you feel connected to, please go to her to talk. Teachers really are motivated by being able to reach out to the kids and make a difference. Don't forget that you are not the only person in your school with depression or other mental challenges - it won't be the first time she's heard it :-).
I know it's hard and you have to do this in your own time. It took me almost 2 years to go to my doctor and admit I needed medication, although I'd been in counseling off and on for years . . .and I'm 40!
You have lots of hormones swirling around in you, you have probably got some sort of chemical imbalance. It could be long-term, it might be temporary. But, it is not a short-coming in you, it is out of your control to a certain extent. It's not a problem you caused. You have to take control over the things you can and going to someone who can do something concrete for you is one thing you can definitely do. You can do it quietly, without a lot of fanfare; write her a note if you can't talk to her yet. Just think about it, okay???
Hang in there and keep writing so we know you're okay :-)
~ Lynne
Posted by LynneDa on December 1, 2003, at 14:41:39
In reply to death, posted by geri122 on November 26, 2003, at 15:09:47
Hope you don't get sick of hearing from me, but I was out this weekend and didn't get in on your current thread at the beginning. I was just re-reading the earlier ones.
Here's a thought for you. Maybe the people you know now wouldn't be effected by you not being there anymore (of course I don't believe that, but I'm continuing your train of thought!), but what about all the people you don't know yet? How many people will you meet down the road at college, jobs, church or whatever activities you do? How do you know that you aren't going to impact one of their lives in the future?
The whole trust thing is a very hard subject. Getting burned by friendships and love is one of the hardest things we have to deal with as humans. But, it's not what happens to us . . . it's how we react to it that really counts and that is where you have a choice.
Here's another one of my favorite platitudes, attributed to Katharine Hepburn: As one goes through life one learns that if you don’t paddle your own canoe, you don’t move.
You can make this time in your life count, Geri. You have no idea who or what is ahead for you!
~Lynne
Posted by fallsfall on December 1, 2003, at 15:56:34
In reply to Re: death, posted by geri122 on December 1, 2003, at 13:46:36
I'm glad you are thinking about telling your teacher. I really think that you can do it in a safe way where you are controlling who finds out and when. She sounds like a great teacher - I'm sure that telling her about it will only make it easier for you. Having someone close by who knows how the system works, and who will keep an eye on you (and give you a special smile that lets you know that she's cheering you on), can be really helpful.
Did you see your friend today at school? Does she know that things are harder for you now? Dealing with these things all alone is much harder than it has to be. We call it "isolating" when all you want to do is be by yourself and not let anyone know how you are feeling. I know that when I isolate I just keep reinforcing whatever is making me depressed. When I start talking with other people (particularly people who know me) they start to point out the things that I'm thinking that don't make much sense (like that no one likes me, or that I can't do anything right).
I'm sorry about your grandfather. It sounds like you were close. Did he live in your town? Did your family have any kind of anniversary rememberance for him? If you didn't, maybe you could suggest that you do that. Maybe you go to his grave and each say something that you liked about him, or make a scrapbook out of pictures that are scattered around your house (everyone keeps their pictures that way, don't they?), or ask people to write down stories about him and put them in a book. It is very hard when someone dies who you love a lot. It takes a long time to stop feeling so sad. Babble has a whole Board on Grief. I'm not a grief expert, so I'll let other people give you advice on how to deal with that!
It sounds like you have had some really special people in your life. It must be hard to watch your neighbor doing poorly. And to think of someone else living in her house. That makes is so you can't really pretend that she's coming back. Makes things feel kind of permanent. Can you visit her in the hospital? I bet she would like nothing better than that. Maybe you could even talk to her about your depression - I bet she would understand.
Sounds like you need to find someone who can help support you through this sad time when you are losing people who you love. No one will replace them, but I bet there are some people nearby in your life who can fill a niche you didn't even know that you had. Keep reaching out.
Are you sleeping better yet? I'm still not sleeping well, but my doctor gave me some meds that help me with that so I'm not so exhausted during the day. I still have to figure out what is upsetting me so much! That's a main job for tomorrow.
Please keep in touch.
Posted by sfmom on December 1, 2003, at 18:32:36
In reply to death, posted by geri122 on November 26, 2003, at 15:09:47
> Im not afraid.. i often wonder. I hear people talking about how they want to do everything possible before they die. Why? after their gone who is really going to care.
> I sit in my room often wondering.. whose going to care when i am gone? who is really going to cry after im gone and mean it. Thats a hard thing to ask yourself. I have a hard time trusting people. I don't want to open up to them, i don't want to get burned.
> I look at everyone on my list thinking no all the way down. If i say that, then why i am here. Does it matter.. will the miss me... will they mean it? I shouldn't have to ask those questions but i do. I don't to feel like this, i shouldn't have to.
> Death... are you ready to deal with it?
Geri, believe it or not, thinking about why we are here on this earth and about death are important aspects of being a human. I know you've never met me but I can say to you in all honesty that I would miss you and I would cry and that I truly care about what happens to you.I just recently found out that when I was 14 or 15 some of my friends went to their parents and told them they were worried I might kill myself. Well, I thought about death a lot at that point in my life and may have welcomed it if it had come, but I certainly wasn't about to make it happen. Anyway, my friends' parents went to see my parents as a sort of intervention. I don't know what my parents' response would have been if I had tried to tell them what I was going through, because I never did try. But they sure as hell realized it was something big when confronted by these other people. I don't even remember this happening but I do know that my parents got me into therapy. I didn't really come out of that depression until I was 17, but it did get a whole lot better than lying awake all night and trying to picture my parents at my funeral and wondering if their tears would be real or just for show. At the time, I truly thought they would be just for show. I know now that I have my own daughter that there could be nothing worse in the world and that I would do anything for her.
I know that you are very afraid, but you've done a wonderful job of expressing yourself through your posts here. One suggestion I have is maybe you could print out your posts. Anyone who reads them will surely understand how much pain you have been in. But even if you don't show them to anyone else, plese print them out for yourself. Keep them in your journal. When you are finally able to get help for yourself, it will be helpful for you to remember what you were feeling. Also, I've read some amazing responses from some really wonderful people here, if some of those touched you, print them out and keep them in your pocket. When things get bad at school or at home you can take them out and be reminded that there are a lot of people who really do know how you feel.
I know that it can be a lot easier to talk to people when it's anonymous. Did you ever call that number that LynneDa got for you? Please call them and just see what they have to offer. They have been through this before and can help you find the kind of help you need. I'm sorry for rambling on here but I just want you to know that you are not alone and we all care very much what happens to you and want to see you healthy and happy. You can e-mail me whenever you want at lolasov@yahoo.com. If you want to talk on the phone, just e-mail me and I'll give you my number. Please let us know if there is anything we can do to help you. We are all pulling for you. Love, Lyssa
Posted by biogurl on December 1, 2003, at 20:03:25
In reply to Re: death » geri122, posted by sfmom on December 1, 2003, at 18:32:36
Geri, I just wanted to let you know that I am going to become a high-school biology teacher. I chose this because I love science but, most importantly because I love young people. Being a teenager is such a troubling time in life (I know from personal experience, I'm 23 now)and I want to be a special teacher, one that students feel that they can trust. I bet your french teacher feels this way as well. Trust her, she chose her job because she wants to help.
Posted by fallsfall on December 2, 2003, at 19:06:52
In reply to Re: death, posted by geri122 on December 1, 2003, at 13:46:36
Hi Geri,
Just wondering what your day has been like today. Are you feeling better? Worse?
Did you decide to talk to your teacher? How did that go?
I finally figured out why I'm not sleeping well - talking to my therapist helped a lot, but it wasn't until I left his office that I figured it out. Now at least I have something I can work on, something I can think about and figure out. I always feel better when I feel like there is something I can DO to help me feel better.
Posted by geri122 on December 3, 2003, at 18:10:59
In reply to How's it going? » geri122, posted by fallsfall on December 2, 2003, at 19:06:52
Turn to people you say.. Yeah well i can't because all of my friends are turning their backs on me. I have that oe friend that i told but that is it. I can't turn to them i am all alone
Posted by sfmom on December 3, 2003, at 18:16:24
In reply to Re: How's it going?, posted by geri122 on December 3, 2003, at 18:10:59
Sometimes one good friend is all it takes.
And I know you feel like you're in a hole right now and may not believe me, but we care about you SO MUCH and are very concerned and will do anything we can to help you! Please keep reaching out to us. Love, Lyssa
Posted by geri122 on December 3, 2003, at 18:25:39
In reply to You Are Not Alone, posted by sfmom on December 3, 2003, at 18:16:24
but their supposed to be here for me. They aren't
Posted by sfmom on December 3, 2003, at 19:20:33
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone, posted by geri122 on December 3, 2003, at 18:25:39
Yes, friends are supposed to be there for you. And I imagine that they have been there for you in other ways and in other situations or they wouldn't be your friends. But sometimes people aren't capable, for whatever reasons, of dealing with a friend who is depressed. Maybe they are scared, maybe they just don't know what to say, and maybe they are just so caught up in their own lives and problems that they just can't be there for you in this. But there are people who are very well trained to deal with situations like yours. An example would be the crisis phone line that Lynne gave you. They might even be able to give you some insight into your friends' behavior. It's anonymous and if you are uncomfortable talking to them, you can just hang up. You obviously are very lonely and need some outside help. Please call them and find out what your options are. And please keep posting to us. I can't reiterate enough how much we all care about you. Good luck.
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2003, at 23:42:20
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone, posted by geri122 on December 3, 2003, at 18:25:39
Geri,
I know how disappointing it is to finally get up the courage to talk to someone and find that they can't be there for you. Yes, your friends "should" be there, and your family should, too. But sometimes people can't do that. That's why you need to have more than one person to go to - because sometimes, the one you want the most won't be able to be there. I have a hard time realizing that just because someone has asked me to "be there" doesn't mean that I always have to say yes. You are right. It is very complicated and confusing.
But you have to keep trying. I think it is harder for people your age to deal with depression, just because you haven't had as much experience with it as us old fogies.
Maybe it is time to try your teacher. If you aren't comfortable talking about your depression with her, then talk about the fact that your friends seem to be turning away when you need them. Or talk to her about school, or one of your other teachers. Try her out, and see if she will give you her attention, see if she will care. You don't have to talk about the hard stuff right off the bat. If she asks, then you could even say that you aren't ready to talk about that yet, but that you do want to talk about other things with her. Or even stop in on the way to your bus (so you won't have time to talk) and tell her that you miss having her this year, and could you stop by sometime to talk with her even though she isn't your teacher? Just raise your hand a little bit and let her show you how she'll react.
Feeling like you have noone to turn to is so hard. I'm betting that she won't let you down.
Please keep posting here, you can turn to us (and if one of us doesn't get on the computer, there are others who will see your post - someone will see your post).
I know it is hard to keep reaching out, but it is so important to do. You have 3 of our email addresses. If you need us to help in more concrete ways, please email one of us. (Please ask for the email addresses again if you don't have them)
Please don't be alone.
Posted by geri122 on December 4, 2003, at 14:32:25
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone » geri122, posted by sfmom on December 3, 2003, at 19:20:33
no you don't understand i never them I onlt told one person and they have been there but i have been there for everyone no matter what i am feeling or their situation. They just aren't for me
Posted by sfmom on December 4, 2003, at 15:38:51
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone, posted by geri122 on December 4, 2003, at 14:32:25
I'm sorry that I misunderstood the situation. I am so glad that your one friend has been there for you. I can't begin to tell you how much I understand the place that you are in. But the truth is still that some people, even people you consider friends, will not be able to come through for you in all ways nor all the time. I have finally, at almost 30 years old, come to a place where I have a few truly wonderful friends that I can count on for most things. And among those friends there are even fewer who have been able to support me in my current depression and anxiety. The ones who have been able to help me are the ones who have been through it themselves.
I also know what it's like to always be the one who is giving and there for everybody else, even to my own detriment. I have always been the peacemaker and the one who spoke up for people who were too shy or uncomfortable to speak up for themselves. I've even gotten into a few fist fights for other people because that is what I thought a friend should do.
One thing that I am working on in therapy right now is being able to protect myself from that. To be able to let myself get angry at people who have hurt my feelings. It's been very hard for me, I don't want to ever hurt other people's feelings, even if it means I will suffer more. I'm working on it. But it's still hard. But I have been very lucky to find a wonderful therapist who is helping me a lot.
I've also been on medication for almost two months, and just yesterday switched to a different medication because the first one wasn't working. That was very frustrating for me.
But do you know what got me out of bed today? You did. I got up to see if you had posted and to see if there was anything I could do to help you. I really do know the place where you are right now, and I would really like to help you to find the help you need or just to be here to support you in any way that I can. I didn't know how to help myself when I was your age and my situation got worse than it had to be. I don't want that to happen to you too. So if I can help you even in the smallest way, that will make what I went through worth it.
I know I've said it many, many times, but you are not alone and I care very deeply about you. That may be hard for you to believe, but it's true. Please be in contact soon. Love, Lyssa
Posted by geri122 on December 4, 2003, at 17:39:11
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone » geri122, posted by sfmom on December 4, 2003, at 15:38:51
the truth is you guys have all helped me in so many ways its undiscribable. Just knowing that someone is thinking about my well being means something. I mean, you guys don't even know me. I am a normal teenage girl on the outside and not so normal on the inside. But people always find a way to judge, you guys didn't. Hearing your stories, knowing you are still out there and supporting me through everything helps.
Everyday, when i get a chance, this is the first place i go. It means a lot, more then i can say. Thanks.
if you would like.. i have two poems that i wrote and i was wondering if you would like to hear them. (read)?
Posted by fallsfall on December 4, 2003, at 19:05:11
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone, posted by geri122 on December 4, 2003, at 17:39:11
Yes!
Posted by sfmom on December 4, 2003, at 21:10:54
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone, posted by geri122 on December 4, 2003, at 17:39:11
Yes, please! We would love to read them. And I am so glad that you're writing, it can be very theraputic. Please post them soon, I can't wait to read them!
Posted by LynneDa on December 5, 2003, at 11:15:13
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone, posted by geri122 on December 4, 2003, at 17:39:11
Hi Geri -
I second and third everything sfmom and fallsfall wrote. I'm sorry that you are feeling rejected by so many people you felt were your friends, but there are very few people who are selfless enough to truly be there for you through all things. That's not to say they don't care, but more that they have their own concerns and they either don't have the emotional energy or the knowledge of how to help. If you have one or two really good friends, count yourself lucky!I've always been a giver, too, and as I've gone through the years, I've done less of that, unfortunately, as I realize how much it's depleted me of my emotional energy. Your emotional well-being is like a bank account. You can't expect to make a lot of withdrawals without making a few deposits! You have to find things within yourself that you value and love yourself for that. My self-worth was only as good as my value to other people. As Lyssa was saying, it's taken a lot of years of therapy to get out of that cycle. I'm 40 and still working on it!!
I hate that you feel so alone. What kinds of things make you happy? Things you like to do, things you value, etc. Do you have anything in common with your Mom in this area? Can you suggest an activity together? Sometimes spending time doing something inane like raking leaves or wrapping Christmas presents can open up conversation that is sorely needed.
Just know that you will get through this and we will be here for you! You can do this!! Just think about what you need and try to get it - do it for yourself! You are worth helping!
And a big, huge YES on the poetry. I used to write a lot when I was young and it was a great refuge and outlet for me. Send them to us or post them!
Have a good weekend! Try to get out and do something physical, even if it's just taking a walk. It will clear your head and give you some extra energy.
Your friend,
Lynne
Posted by geri122 on December 5, 2003, at 15:03:12
In reply to Re: You Are Not Alone » geri122, posted by sfmom on December 4, 2003, at 21:10:54
I wish, I wonder, and I wait.
For each breathe I take, a frown appears,The journey of life waits in the near.
Nothing good, will ever come,
I wish, I wonder, and I wait.
It’s back, its close, its all in reach.The mirror image, it’s so surreal,
The truth exists, what’s the deal?
I sit in wonder, what is next,
It’s back, its close, its all in reach.
Power, strength, the whole ideal.Never know what’s really real.
The laughter’s gone,
Will never appear,
The truth has spoken,
it’s real, it’s real!
I wish, I wonder, and I wait.Its back, its close, its all in reach.
Power, strength, the whole ideal.
The meaning of a single tear!
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.