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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Destroyo on November 10, 2003, at 21:27:16
I'm against The War On Drugs. I don't feel contempt for those who argue against legalization of drugs, because it's not a slam-dunk no-brainer type of issue. There are valid reasons to NOT legalize drugs; a case can be made.
We live in The Age of Anxiety, Don't We? There's a Harvard shrink, can't recall his name, anyway he was interviewed on NPR, abut a year (?) ago. He wrote a book in which he argues in favor of the hypotheses that all addictions are the result of anxiety; identify the source of the anxiety, correct the situation, and Viola! No more addiction! Easier said than done? Probably, I may be oversimplifying his ideas a bit. If anyone knows his name, let me know. I need to read that book, so I know what the Heck I'm talking about. I failed to make a note of it as I listened to the radio interview, but then I got to analyzing my own situation in light of his hypotheses, and you know....it just might be true. I won't bore you with the details of my own particular anxiety. Suffice it to say, it's a 150 lb. rabid mastiff that must be placated (with alcohol), or else it'll eat me alive.
Personally, I've used a benzodiazepene (Sp?) (that class of drugs which includes Valium)...
only once. My long-suffering MD scripted me for a three day supply, a few years back, to ease alcohol withdrawal symptoms. But I was curious. I wanted to know if this drug could eliminate my craving for alcohol. I took all three days' supply in ONE day (don't try this at home, kiddies). Shore Nuff, I had no urge to drink at all; perhaps my anxiety had been quelled? Sure felt like it. Anxiety? What Anxiety? But I still functioned normally to all outside appearances.
When I was in high school back in the 70's, my friends used to routinely steal Valium from their parents' medicine chest. You know, take 3 pills from this month's RX, won't be missed, bide your time, then take 3 pills from next month's bottle, take six Valium, and WHEEEEEE!!! My parents, alas, didn't take Valium.
Anyway, I recall that when me and my pals were broke, couldn't buy beer or reefer (I didn't grow up rich), that when one of my circle of pals was on Valium, he didn't particularly care about beer & reefer. He was "copacetic", to use the language of the day (excellently satisfied). The rest of us would complain bitterly about having no beer or reefer (aw, poor babies!), but not the guy on Valium.
Try this: ask your shrink or MD (or both, if applicable) a hypothetical question: If drugs now illegal or tightly controlled were legal and cheap, and you had a patient who was an incorrigible alcoholic, would you rather him be addicted to Benzos, or alcohol? The obvious answer is "neither", but in this posited scenario, that's simply not realistic. I plan to ask my doc this question (he's just an MD, I've no use for shrinks <nothing personal Dr. Bob>) , but I've got to wait till I've got some malady to complain about. Despite being a drinker of monstrously titanic proportions, I almost never get sick. You see, God wants to keep me alive so he can torture me....25 years of depression, none of the pills (ersatz spurious placebos?) that I've been given do anything at all. I've no health insurance, so I don't want to pay 45 bucks just to ask a stupid question. You see, I've been thinking, I've never heard of anyone going to the emergency room, or dying, due to OD'ing on benzos. Is it really such a big deal to be addicted, if you can always get more? I suspect that tolerance to benzos (like opiates) levels off eventually, and then you take a maintenance dose. The reality is that we'll NEVER have an illegal-drug free America. Basically, our society channels people into using the none-to-healthy alternative of alcohol, with all its well known attendant problems. Is this the best we can do?
Posted by octopusprime on November 11, 2003, at 12:51:45
In reply to Please Choose An Addiction: Benzos, or Demon Rum?, posted by Destroyo on November 10, 2003, at 21:27:16
hello destroyo
i'll put my personal note to you first. (to make sure you read it, this post will get long :)
you said: "Suffice it to say, it's a 150 lb. rabid mastiff that must be placated (with alcohol), or else it'll eat me alive."
there are more choices in drugs than benzos and alcohol. there are ssris and atypical anti-psychotics and other drugs that you may find helpful for anxiety. i myself used weed to keep me in line, it wound up being ultimately ineffective, and i felt much better after going the shrink/medical drug route. medical treatment may in fact be cheaper than a drinking habit, despite your lack of insurance. do a cost/benefit analysis to exploring treatment, it may be worth it to you. good luck.
now to the more general stuff:
thought i would google on your assertion:
"I've never heard of anyone going to the emergency room, or dying, due to OD'ing on benzos."here's what i turned up on the toxicity on benzos:
"In the US: In 1998, a total of 40,004 benzodiazepine exposures were reported to US poison control centers, of which 1177 (2.9%) resulted in major toxicity and 53 (0.1%) resulted in death. " (from http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic58.htm)so, as you suggest, we can contrast this against alcohol-related deaths, and see that the morbidity related to benzos is significantly smaller than the morbidity related to alcohol (even if you only count the deaths from alcohol poisoning!)
however, the morbidity statistics do indicate that benzos are not harmless, as you assert. a steady supply becomes an invitation to overdose, because as you mentioned a tolerance grows.
i'm with you, the war on drugs has been an abject failure. i personally think we should legalize it, tax it, and treat addiction publically, much like alcohol. until our western society truly does create good opportunities for all people to work, socialize, and make the most of ourselves, the underclass (and even the unsatisfied upper and middle classes) will continue to drug itself into a stupor to close its eyes to the pain and banality of modern life. i don't see any solution besides acceptance and social growth.
alcohol is not the best we can do. drugs aren't either. what we need are good schools, solid social programs, affordable housing, and a real shot for everybody. and while i'm dreaming, i'd like a pony. :)
Posted by Porter on November 11, 2003, at 14:56:44
In reply to Re: Please Choose An Addiction: Benzos, or Demon Rum?, posted by octopusprime on November 11, 2003, at 12:51:45
don't know what I can offer but I really dug both of your posts. Right on about war on drugs, and class theory.
I don't really have any concrete beliefs but I think there is more to substance abuse/addiction than genetic tendencies etc.; I mean, the world is messed up. The human condition (ie life=loss) necessitates some kind of opiate for dealing with it and moving on. I tend to think of religion as such (unless they are right, in which case I'm screwed, but i'm not the only one so oh well) a way of dealing with existence.
As far as social programs, schools. etc., I'm thinking thats a stretch. Substance abuse isn't only an American institution; people are getting high everywhere, and while those things are definitely important, I don't think if we all have free health care, were not going to use it to get a script for oc's to get us through the day.
I've been depressed my entire life, and I've always assumed it was because I was more sensitive to reality than other people. Just now, having been required for legal reasons to see a therapist (don't ask) am I trying to understand it as there be something "wrong with me." So, now I'm on medication, life still sucks and I'm still not happy about it.
Sorry about the rant, I am not sure if this is even related. Thanks
Posted by Destroyo on November 11, 2003, at 20:39:13
In reply to Please Choose An Addiction: Benzos, or Demon Rum?, posted by Destroyo on November 10, 2003, at 21:27:16
Octopus prime, I've tried about 20 different medications or medication combinations. Nothing works. It's a little ironic, that if one doesn't take the long term view into account, depression can be cured instantly with oxycontin or dexedrine. Eventually, the cure, of course, often turns out to be worse than the disease.
I believe that people are basically rational about drugs, when the situation enables them to be. Back in the 80's you could find people who thought that cocaine was harmless and not addictive. I don't think anyone believes that anymore. Crack, of course, is the most insidious drug of all, but if you live in the inner city and you feel the need for a more emphatic high than that provided by alcohol & nicotine, crack is it. It's what's available. On a related note, if you're a rural dweller, you'll buy crank (meth). In both case, people buy these drugs because that's what's for sale...what's available. In my exerience, people aren't particulary choosy about which drug elevates their mood, as long as it works. Anyway, if drugs were legal, I think that benzos, and to a lesser extent, opiates, would be very popular. Coke and speed, in the prescense of an effective mood-elevating alternative, would largely be shunned, because the word is out that they're extremely hazardous.
Porter, I love your turn of phrase about being more "sensitive to reality" than others. I know exactly what you mean. Objectively speaking, most people's individual lives, as well as the milieu of the world at large, ain't so hot. I think some people just have more favorable brain chemistry, but what can one do? There aren't any truly, reliably effective antidepressants yet. In the meantime, we just have to play the hand we're dealt.
Posted by EscherDementian on November 12, 2003, at 1:39:53
In reply to Re: Please Choose An Addiction: Benzos, or Demon Rum?, posted by Destroyo on November 11, 2003, at 20:39:13
Just have to put this old post of Sar's out here. I love this post:
Re: Klonopin Stevie Nicks
Posted by sar on September 10, 2001, at 1:58:09
In reply to Re: Klonopin Stevie Nicks, posted by femenist on September 9, 2001, at 22:42:11> i'm on prozac and klonopin and don't give a shit if they're addictive or not...
>
> they've improved my life tenfold
>
> pros outweigh cons
>
> klonopin isn't fatal
>
> COCA-COLA IS ADDICTIVE! IT REALLY IS! COFFEE IS, TOO! DORITOS!!! shit, would you rather deal with crippling, overwhelming life-threatening anxiety or klonopin "addiction"? klonopin has restored the quality of my life in a way i can't describe. i feel somewhat OKAY now. i can LAUGH. i don't feel DEAD.
>
> if that makes me a klonopin addict, then put me on some sort of pro-addiction list.
>
> sar
.Could it be said that diabetics are addicted to insulin? Or other such similar meds taken daily and long term, because the patient is 'dependent on their medication'... ? Or consider the 'withdrawal' after taking an SSRI daily. There's even a tolerance factor necessitating increased dose to get the same effects, with many of the SSRIs. Never have i heard them referred to as having any 'addiction potential'.
i've seen this "addiction watchdog heroism" get so pc sensationalized, that the trendy 'concerned focus on a villainous possibility' disproportionately dominates the consideration of a medication's specific purpose and effective assistance.
This "addiction watchdog heroism" seems to be replacing the specific patient-appropriate logic and whole picture sensibility. The individual and individualized situation seem to be obsolete considerations.What's up with this? Are the docs getting poor (or any) training for Real Live People? Or are they serving infidel gods?
Like HMOs that require so many patients within an hour that they can't possibly individualize...
Or Malpractice Insurance safeguards, and saving their own as**s the easy way...
Rather than INSISTING on taking the time to thoroughly assess and perscribe appropriate choices with responsibility that they can stand behind. (Whose a*s is coming before which cart here?)Sorry for the rant. (Take with a grain of salt, but don't get bitter over it).
But i just HAD to share sar's post (above). LOL (Sometimes i wish i could vent like sar did).Escher
Posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 2:50:03
In reply to Please Choose An Addiction: Benzos, or Demon Rum?, posted by Destroyo on November 10, 2003, at 21:27:16
Andrew Solomon, in his magnificent masterpiece, The Noonday Demon; An Atlas of Depression, makes an eloquent and persuasive plea against the villification of benzos. Just find the book; readily available at any public library,
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 16, 2003, at 8:38:12
In reply to Re: Please Choose An Addiction: Benzos, or Demon Rum?, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 2:50:03
> Andrew Solomon, in his magnificent masterpiece, The Noonday Demon; An Atlas of Depression, makes an eloquent and persuasive plea against the villification of benzos. Just find the book; readily available at any public library,
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
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