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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 18:48:09
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » noa, posted by fi on April 11, 2003, at 14:35:06
Fi, thanks. I am so glad you left that situation and found a better one! An organization free of politics? It exists?
As for your cautious approach--good idea. if you feel at all fragile, don't read anything that you think would only agitate you, and wouldn't educate or support you.
Stay strong!
Posted by Dinah on April 11, 2003, at 20:29:42
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long), posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 18:48:09
Noa, wasn't your meeting today?
How are you doing?
Posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 22:56:21
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » noa, posted by Dinah on April 11, 2003, at 20:29:42
Dinah, thanks for asking. Yes, I had my meeting--thanks for remembering.
I am fine. Just confused and angry. I was offered a full time job (I have been askinf for full time hours for years), but it will have me straddling two different departments, meaning I'd have to manage two sets of crazy managers!]
On paper the job description is pretty good. They definitly wrote it with my strengths in mind (and weaknesses because they got real specific about deadlines!!hehe!!)
But there are a lot of issues for me that I still have to sort out.
First of all, I am so fucking mad I don't know if I can stay there. I cannot believe how badly they treated my colleague/friend for no good reason. they are wrong on so many levels about their criticism of her and morally wrong to have kicked while she was down. Not only that but in my meeting today it was revealed that there is actually an opening happening in one of the departments I will straddle--a full time opening that my friend is fully qualified for and would have done a great job at. I just cannot understand how they can let her go! I just don't understand it. Why, out of the blue is there this sudden poorly defined criticism of her that is baseless and undocumented and they say they let her go because of financial cut backs, not for cause, and if that is the case, they should be offering her this other position or at least allowing her to apply for it. I just don't understand.
How can I work there without speaking my mind? I don't trust their judgment or their morals or ethics.
There will be 2 managers to deal with (plus more, but first layer next to me is these 2). One is in the deparment I am already in. But the other half of my job would be in the other department. The people there are so miserable with their manager, and he would be directly supervising me. This is the one I mentioned before who is passive agressive and an idiot (that's a technical term, btw) and hasn't the first clue about supervising. And is underhanded and mean and vindictive and stupid!
If I had more money in my account than just barely next month's morgtgage, I would resign. But the chances of me securing another job before I have to respond to them about this one are pretty small.
At best, I would accept it and think of it as one year (contracts are year by year begining July 1), during which I would be looking elsewhere. But I am just having the hardest time imagining working in a professional and pleasant manner with them because I cannot beleive they did what they did. Like I said I don't trust their judgment if they can be so cruel and so stupid to let her go. Stupid! because they don't know what they are losing! And just so bad because of their treating her like discardable trash! It would be different, somewhat, if there really was no other position to place her in, but they have apparently already started interviewing from the outside for the position that is opening up (because they fired someone else who was ready to leave anyway).
I am so disappointed. I am so angry. I am so confused.
I am fine. I am functioning normally, but so angry and sad.
Today in my meeting I was pretty glum, and couldn't really react the way a person might when being offered full time position. I tried to ask a few questions about the job description, and their answers were just wacko because they weren't understanding what I was asking. They answered in a way that clearly tells me they were hearing my questions through this expectation that I (and my colleagues) think unprofessionally and not in team spirit and like we don't want to really work and put in the effort that is needed to do the job right. I'll give an example. Because of the cutbacks, they are combining roles and tasks so that there are more items on my job description than there would have been before--kind of like 1.5 jobs. So I asked if they had envisioned in their minds how execution of the roles and tasks would work given the increase in workload for everyone. I was not asking a rhetorical question! I even said that after their first responses because they answered as though my question was rhetorical and argumentative about the decision to load up job descriptions. So I then also said that I am fine with the idea that the increase in load was happening, I understood why, etc. etc. and my question was not meant to challenge that at all. I said I just was asking that as they had done their strategic planning had they had the opportunity to envision how this all would be succesfully implemented given that it was a significant change? Ie, coudl they share with me any thougths they had about implementation?
They did not get what I was asking and responded again with answers that implied that I would need to think professionally and make it work. One of them even gave as an example that the day before she had to sacrifice her personal plans for the evening to get some work accomplished. Well, that was simply insulting to me. So I calmly said that I wasn't asking about what I would have to sacrifice, but more about how the programs and projects would change. I didn't wait for an answer at that point, and simply said, "you know what? I'm afraid that I am not succeeding in articulating my question in a way that leads to your undersanding what I'm intending, so I'm goign to hold my questions for now and think more about how to articulate them.
Then I said, "I'm sorry I'm not being more cheerful but you understand that the past couple of days have been extremely rough." and they both nodded and said they understood.
I was downright distant and glum in this meeting. I did not smile, I don't think. I was matter of fact as I could be. I asked a couple of logistical questions about the job and about the process and timeline, etc. But I was so cold.
I didn't know any other way to be, really. I'm not a good poker player.
I don't know what to do. I am not in a financial position to leave. And I would miss a lot about working there, really, despite all the problems. I am mad at them for that, too. They changed the place in my mind. There were always problems with suprvisors that enraged me but now it is at a whole new level.
I am taking some vacation leave this week and will have some time to think about it all.
At least I'm not very impulsive, I guess.
Posted by Dinah on April 12, 2003, at 0:12:53
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long), posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 22:56:21
Oh, Noa, it sounds like a dreadful experience. :(
It's a shame that business rules are different than normal rules. It would be so much easier to be able to just be open, but I know that isn't how things are done. It's a shame you can't directly observe that they seem to have somehow gotten a mistaken impression of the group of workers, and ask how they got that impression, and how you might be able to address their concerns.
I'm sort of lucky in that my office may be full of people who aren't great bosses maybe, in that they don't know how to do the nitty gritty boss tasks well. But they're all people who left the rat race because they did understand that there was more to life than work. So I can't quite imagine what it must be like in a big office where everyone is trying to get ahead. My husband talks about the Dilbertish things that really happen.
Noa, I have always been impressed with how thoughtful and measured you are. If you think the situation is dreadful, it probably is.
You like your work, but the office politics make the job grossly unpleasant. Is it hard to find a job in your field? It at least can't hurt to look around while you're safely employed. I understand completely the financial pressures that keep you there.
I hope you find an answer, Noa. We spend too much time at work to have it be such a stressful place.
Posted by Tabitha on April 12, 2003, at 2:38:10
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long), posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 22:56:21
Well obviously your job is secure since they want to double your workload.
This struck me from you post:
>didn't wait for an answer at that point, and simply said, "you know what? I'm afraid that I am not succeeding in articulating my question in a way that leads to your undersanding what I'm intending, so I'm goign to hold my questions for now and think more about how to articulate them.
I love that response. It's just the slightest bit baffling, yet totally cool-headed.
Posted by Dinah on April 12, 2003, at 5:28:22
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » noa, posted by Tabitha on April 12, 2003, at 2:38:10
I loved that one too. Since I would have just burst into tears, I really admire that you could keep your head, Noa, and have the presence of mind to say something polite yet firm.
Posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 11:49:03
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » noa, posted by Tabitha on April 12, 2003, at 2:38:10
Yeah, I'm kind of proud of myself for that one, too. I wish I hadn't even started with the questions preceding it, because it was so quickly getting out of my control, but I am proud of myself for stopping it and regaining control. So many times in my life I feel like I have somehow gotten myself dug into a hole because I didn't feel I had any control over the direction of a conversation. So maybe I'm finally learning how to step back and protect myself? I think that I was able to do that yesterday because I had so much prep going into the meeting--I knew it was likely I was getting a full time job because we kind of knew the number of positions that would be kept and dropped and the people who were dropped had already had their meetings. I also knew I had some of what I feel is rightful anger and that these managers feel some guilt and are somewhat afraid of our anger--this all allowed me to go in there with conviction that I had to listen but I didn't really need to respond much--ie, I could just take the info with me and respond later. I also knew I wasn't sure how to respond at the moment, or how I felt about staying, so I had planned to keep this meeting short and get back to them later. I kind of went in with a "yeah, whatever" attitude in my mind because I was so mad already. That is kind of empowering in a way.
Posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 11:50:51
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) Noa and » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on April 12, 2003, at 5:28:22
I usually do burst into tears. I get intimidated by the power differential. But in this case I think I was already so angry at how they used their power, and I knew (see previous post) that the worst had already been meted out, that it was likely I was getting asked to stay.
But yeah, it helps to make up for all those times I did burst into hysterical sobbing tears!
Posted by fi on April 12, 2003, at 12:59:14
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long), posted by noa on April 11, 2003, at 18:48:09
I know, I cant believe it either! I find it quite strange not having to do things like put things in writing to cover myself, or trying to put the case for something clearly worthwhile in a way that looks good for revenue generation or enhancing the brand (this in a non-commercial public body!)
Now work in a medical charity- but even more surprised its OK as worked for 3 before that were appalling on office politics.
I'm feeling so happy today as I'm feeling a bit better so the day isnt a struggle (you know what its like when you feel dire and think you havent looked at the clock for ages- but its only another 20 minutes).
So having my first meal for a week (as against milk on its own or with supplement powder) and watching Babe. Nice!!
I do hope that you find a reasonable job soon, either within the current organisation or a new one, too.
Fi
Posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 15:28:43
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » noa, posted by fi on April 12, 2003, at 12:59:14
Thanks, fi! Put a smile on my face that you're feeling a bit better. Now, is that 2 days in a row?
Posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 21:52:27
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » fi, posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 15:28:43
It's eating at me again. I'm enraged and I don't know what to do about this. How can they do this? I wish I could just quit.
I realized that the boss lied to us in our meeting. We had gone in altogether and asked about the process and she said first our managers would decide whom to cut and then we'd be able to apply for any openings. But they lied. They cut my friend and then added the stupdity about their imagined time issue, and basically showed her the door. Then, in my meeting I find out they are hiring for another position for which she is definitely qualified and for which she expressed interest in that meeting we all had. I just don't understand how they can treat a good employee that way!! We know her work best because we work most closely with her. What are they doing? How can they be so evil?
FUCK THEM FUCK THEM FUCK THEM FUCK THEM FUCK THEM
Posted by mair on April 12, 2003, at 22:23:40
In reply to Re: It's eating at me again., posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 21:52:27
Noa
The only way that this makes any sense is that there is something about your colleague that they didn't like, and it doesn't sound like the clock watching thing. My guess is that you'll not find out what it was, but it was compelling enough for them to want to show her the door. (Maybe they just had someone else they wanted to bring in, or maybe it was just a personality conflict).
Employers would always rather fire someone for cause than not. If they can fire them for cause, the employee isn't as eligible for unemployment, or at least the employers unemployment rating (which determines how much Un-E tax they pay) goes up. Here they were willing to use cutbacks as an excuse which allows her clear access to benefits. That tells me that they may just have really wanted to get rid of her for some reason.
It sucks, but it is their prerogative, like it or not, to assemble the team they think will work best regardless of how flawed you think their judgment is, and if you blow them off, it's a moral victory at best - you've not done anything to help your colleague. Maybe if you stick around you might be able to effect some positive changes in the way management views staff. At worst, you've bought yourself some time to shop around for another job.
Mair
Posted by noa on April 13, 2003, at 11:54:12
In reply to Re: It's eating at me again. » noa, posted by mair on April 12, 2003, at 22:23:40
Yeah, that's the grown up way to look at it, MAIR.
But I still think their judgment was based on a smear campaign by some of the weasels who operate on personality and not on professionalism, and who gave the upper managers some really bad impression of her that is totally inacurate!! I and the other colleague know her work best because we are a team, working together every day!
I know you are wise in your advice, and I can't just go without a job, but I'm looking. I might just accept the job and then give them my pov in as articulate a manner as I can muster up. Then, if they want to fire me for telling them the truth, so be it.
Posted by fi on April 13, 2003, at 12:45:17
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long) » fi, posted by noa on April 12, 2003, at 15:28:43
Posted by noa on April 13, 2003, at 13:30:44
In reply to Make that 3! Thanks : ) (nm) » noa, posted by fi on April 13, 2003, at 12:45:17
Enjoy!
Posted by WorryGirl on April 13, 2003, at 16:20:20
In reply to Re: It's eating at me again., posted by noa on April 13, 2003, at 11:54:12
> Yeah, that's the grown up way to look at it, MAIR.
>
> But I still think their judgment was based on a smear campaign by some of the weasels who operate on personality and not on professionalism, and who gave the upper managers some really bad impression of her that is totally inacurate!! I and the other colleague know her work best because we are a team, working together every day!
>
> I know you are wise in your advice, and I can't just go without a job, but I'm looking. I might just accept the job and then give them my pov in as articulate a manner as I can muster up. Then, if they want to fire me for telling them the truth, so be it.It's unfortunate that some companies are this way, and so frustrating. That is the biggest reason why I am glad I left the office rat race (unless necessity requires me to return).
Personality ALWAYS got in the way. Why is it that the real producers out there either get taken advantage of and overworked or are just plain not liked (either resented or made fun of)?
I don't know what else to say except that I hope this job situation works out in the best possible way for you.
To me it sounds like you are making good decisions and are handling everything as well as you possibly can.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 14, 2003, at 17:11:31
In reply to Re: The other shoe (long), posted by noa on April 10, 2003, at 18:50:21
> F*CK THEM! THere--does that address it better?
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't use language that could offend them, thanks.
> I might get a PBC*...
>
> *(It might be a first for me, I don't know! Hey, if it is my first, does that make me a PBC virgin?)You don't even know if it's your first time? :-)
Bob
Posted by noa on April 14, 2003, at 17:48:41
In reply to Re: please be civil » noa, posted by Dr. Bob on April 14, 2003, at 17:11:31
Posted by noa on April 14, 2003, at 18:25:49
In reply to Re: please be civil » noa, posted by Dr. Bob on April 14, 2003, at 17:11:31
>You don't even know if it's your first time? :-)
I really don't. Do you?
Posted by Greg on April 14, 2003, at 18:48:49
In reply to Re: please be civil--PS » Dr. Bob, posted by noa on April 14, 2003, at 18:25:49
> >You don't even know if it's your first time? :-)
>
> I really don't. Do you?Oh Noa, your squeaky clean reputation has been tarnished. What IS this world coming to??? :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 15, 2003, at 17:44:53
In reply to Re: please be civil--PS » Dr. Bob, posted by noa on April 14, 2003, at 18:25:49
> >You don't even know if it's your first time? :-)
>
> I really don't. Do you?AFAIK, yes, it was your first.
Bob
Posted by judy1 on April 16, 2003, at 9:57:24
In reply to Re: please be civil--PS » Dr. Bob, posted by noa on April 14, 2003, at 18:25:49
actually, i kind of got one from Dinah when Dr.B was on vacation, but it was so politely worded I'm still not sure I'm a virgin- sad isn't it? take care, judy
Posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 10:42:32
In reply to another virgin:-) » noa, posted by judy1 on April 16, 2003, at 9:57:24
"but it was so politely worded I'm still not sure I'm a virgin - sad isn't it?"
Judy1, I think it sounds like you were just gently deflowered :)
Posted by Kar on April 16, 2003, at 11:04:05
In reply to Re: another virgin:-) » judy1, posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 10:42:32
Hmmm, "gently deflowered"...if he was any good you'd definitely remember it...
ouch did I say that?
yup
>
> Judy1, I think it sounds like you were just gently deflowered :)
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 15:34:42
In reply to another virgin:-) » noa, posted by judy1 on April 16, 2003, at 9:57:24
I think your virginity is still intact, Judy. I'm pretty sure that was just a gentle reminder. :)
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