![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Noa on January 6, 2003, at 18:01:18
In reply to Re: Movies that feature Therapy/mental illness, posted by syringachalet on January 6, 2003, at 15:24:00
wow--you are a brave and good person.
as for the classmates and their intolerance--it's a shame, though not surprising, to hear that. Especially a shame in nursing, where the ethos of care is so prominent.
But I think people do that so as to distance themselves from the vulnerabilities they see in patients--a kind of protective us vs. them mentality to help the professionals cope with the incredible stress of the work with people who are suffering. So it makes you one of the rare great ones, who can do the work without having to do that kind of distancing. And I'm sure it makes you great at what you do.
Posted by syringachalet on January 6, 2003, at 23:25:19
In reply to Re: Movies that feature Therapy/mental illness, posted by Noa on January 6, 2003, at 18:01:18
Noa, I am humbled by your candor. Thank you.
You are correct. I have (and Im sure most of you all have as well) found that its much safer and easier emotionally to be angry with someone or something than to be disappointed.
Anger is projecting a feeling and a energy away from ones self.
Disappointment is having to own that feeling; to have that fear of vulnerability and interspect with self evaluation of judgement.Face it.. we are all our own toughest critics. Most of us put more blame and punishment on ourselves than we would ever do to anyone else, even someone we dispised.
My grandmother often said that you have to be your own best friend before you can be anyones elses...
gee.. as a kid I only thought she made great ginger cookies... :o)Take care. syringachalet
Posted by Noa on January 7, 2003, at 18:27:06
In reply to Movies that feature Therapy/mental illness, posted by bluedog on January 5, 2003, at 10:34:51
I guess one of my favorites is Memento. I loved this movie. I felt that it created an effect in the viewer much like what was happening to the protagonist, and made me think a lot about the nature of memory, dreams, focus, etc.
If you've seen it already, and haven't seen the web site, here is the address:
For those who haven't seen it, my personal recommendation is to see the film first and then go to the web site. But here is a taste of what it is about:
(from Yahoo/Greg's previews): "Leonard Shelby (Pearce) is a man plagued by a rare type of short-term memory loss that prevents him from remembering things for more than a few minutes, so he keeps notes for himself in the form of snapshot photographs and tattos. As the film, which is told in reverse, starts, we find that he is in the middle of a quest to find and kill the man who raped and murdered his wife (Fox). Among the people who (maybe) help Shelby are Teddy (Pantoliano) and a bartender, Natalie (Moss)..."
[http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808405113&intl=us]The web site is closer, I believe, to the story upon which the movie is based, called "Memento Mori", and indeed, the web site is created by the author of the story,Jonathan Nolan, who is the brother of the movie director, Christopher Nolan. The story can be found at Esquire online:
http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2001/001323_mfr_memento_1.html
Posted by ayrity on January 8, 2003, at 0:20:15
In reply to Re: Movies -- Memento, posted by Noa on January 7, 2003, at 18:27:06
Hey, I just happened to rent Memento last weekend. Great movie. I'm still replaying the scenes in my head and trying to reconstruct the movie in chonological order! A real brain teaser, and realy lets you experience a bit of what the character's thought process is like.
> I guess one of my favorites is Memento. I loved this movie. I felt that it created an effect in the viewer much like what was happening to the protagonist, and made me think a lot about the nature of memory, dreams, focus, etc.
>
> If you've seen it already, and haven't seen the web site, here is the address:
>
> http://www.otnemem.com/
>
> For those who haven't seen it, my personal recommendation is to see the film first and then go to the web site. But here is a taste of what it is about:
>
> (from Yahoo/Greg's previews): "Leonard Shelby (Pearce) is a man plagued by a rare type of short-term memory loss that prevents him from remembering things for more than a few minutes, so he keeps notes for himself in the form of snapshot photographs and tattos. As the film, which is told in reverse, starts, we find that he is in the middle of a quest to find and kill the man who raped and murdered his wife (Fox). Among the people who (maybe) help Shelby are Teddy (Pantoliano) and a bartender, Natalie (Moss)..."
> [http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808405113&intl=us]
>
> The web site is closer, I believe, to the story upon which the movie is based, called "Memento Mori", and indeed, the web site is created by the author of the story,Jonathan Nolan, who is the brother of the movie director, Christopher Nolan. The story can be found at Esquire online:
>
> http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2001/001323_mfr_memento_1.html
Posted by M. Lee on January 8, 2003, at 7:22:38
In reply to Movies that feature Therapy/mental illness, posted by bluedog on January 5, 2003, at 10:34:51
Adding Solaris to this thread of movies is a bit of a stretch...
The plot is that a psychologist is sent to a space station to find out why the astronauts are behaving strangely. He soon finds himself affected in the same way. Each character is forced to face their own repressed memories which have taken on a very real life of their own.
The book that the movie is based on (by Stanislaw Lem) is one of the best that I have ever read. I had also seen the original russian movie (by Tarkovsky) from 1972. Very good if you enjoy movies like "2001"
The new movie was pretty well done, though the focus of the new movie was a bit different than the book and first film. I was not very impressed with the acting, and a bit disappointed with changes to the ending. Other than that, I found it interesting.
My friend (who had not read the book or seen the first film) enojoyed it alot.
Posted by M .Lee on January 8, 2003, at 13:22:30
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone?, posted by wendy b. on January 6, 2003, at 10:47:34
[The movie has been out for a while now, but if you haven't seen it yet, you might not want to read on...]
> I know some people talked about this movie last year when it came out... I recently saw it on video, and found it a good movie as far as filmmaking goes, and acting too, but I don't know very much about the way schizophrenia affects perception, so I don't know if it's really true to life or not. The John Nash character kept seeing two or three figures who were very real to him, but no one else could see them. He seemed to get drawn into an altered state of consciousness when he saw them, and had visions of grandiosity, such as making mathematic formulae for the FBI.
>I read the book about a year ago, and then saw the film a while later. I think that the movie depicted his delusions in an interesting way, that drew me into the character and his world (as it is shown in the film.) It is described _very_ differently in the biography. I don't think that it would even be possible to show the description from the book on screen. IMHO, as an average moviegoer, the "artistic license" that they took drove the plot of the movie forward in a novel way.
But, that doesn't answer your question about "true to life" My feeling is that it's too much to expect from a movie, and perhaps even too much to expect from an accurate biography. In an interview with the biographer, Nash himself had difficulty explaining what he experienced. Many of the descriptions are based on what other people observed and heard Nash talk about during his illness.
There was one historical inaccuracy that bugged me, though. The movie left the impression that Nash's work for the Pentagon was a delusion. Nash _was_ hired to do research at RAND from 1950-54 (under a Pentagon contract) and was granted 'secret' security clearence by the gov't. He applied the mathematics of game theory to the problem of strategy in nuclear conflict. He did not have the 'top-secret' clearence needed for access to nuclear weapons documents, though, so his work was mostly theoretical. (Unlike other researchers at RAND who formulated the strategies that were actually used.)That ommision made it easier to film the delusion scenes, but it also ignored the fact that in real life Nash worked on some pretty scarey stuff during the height of the cold war. His symptoms of paranoia surfaced at about the time of McCarthy. The question about if this "triggered" the onset of his condition is something that the book does not attempt to answer. But knowing these facts does put his life experiences in a broader persective. I seem to recall that some reviews of the film may have mentioned this idea.
> I liked the way they portrayed him later in his life, as someone who could still give instruction and be useful to students. So it gives a public who might not be aware of the effects of disabilities a view that mental disability doesn't mean unable to work or do a job. More people need to know this...
>I missed that positive aspect of the portrayal at the time I saw the movie. I guess I was too bothered by the idea that he "willed" himself to get better after going off his meds.
That theme can't be blamed on historical inaccuracy, though. The real John Nash was quoted as saying that applying willpower to overcome his illness was like dieting. His own doctors wouldn't comment on that, although they could not explain his remission.
I left the movie feeling rather low. If I don't get better, is it because I lack the willpower? Or, does that only work if you have a Nobel Prize winning intellect?? Ohh, and don't get me started on the "love conquers all" theme... I'll be typing for days! :)
Having said all this, I now have to go take a shower, because I feel like I reek of Political Correctness! ;)
After all, it's "only" a movie. Maybe these topics just hit a bit too close to home, for my comfort.
Posted by OddipusRex on January 8, 2003, at 17:32:59
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!) » wendy b., posted by M .Lee on January 8, 2003, at 13:22:30
I also read the book and thought the movie was not at all an accurate portrayal. For example the real John Nash never had visual hallucinations which were in the movie. I too noticed his insistence in the book that his son (who is also schizophrenic) could cure himself if he wanted too. It's worth noting that in the book his wife divorced him although she did let him live at her house for some of the years of his illness. I also thought it was interesting in the book that so many of his colleagues had ill family members of their own or became ill themselves at a later date. It makes one wonder about the connection between the "mathematical personality " and schizophrenia. It also occurred to me that his recovery in later years might have been because he refused medication for so long (in the book) that as he aged out of the florid symptoms (delusions, hallucinations) he was not troubled with the aftereffects of the years on medication. It is well known that many schizophrenics lose the positive symptoms in late life but the negative ones(possibly from the old APs) tend to linger. I liked the book though. It was fascinating. As far as movies, I think Angel Baby whick was an Australian movie from the 90's was probably more realistic but very very sad.
> [The movie has been out for a while now, but if you haven't seen it yet, you might not want to read on...]
>
> > I know some people talked about this movie last year when it came out... I recently saw it on video, and found it a good movie as far as filmmaking goes, and acting too, but I don't know very much about the way schizophrenia affects perception, so I don't know if it's really true to life or not. The John Nash character kept seeing two or three figures who were very real to him, but no one else could see them. He seemed to get drawn into an altered state of consciousness when he saw them, and had visions of grandiosity, such as making mathematic formulae for the FBI.
> >
>
> I read the book about a year ago, and then saw the film a while later. I think that the movie depicted his delusions in an interesting way, that drew me into the character and his world (as it is shown in the film.) It is described _very_ differently in the biography. I don't think that it would even be possible to show the description from the book on screen. IMHO, as an average moviegoer, the "artistic license" that they took drove the plot of the movie forward in a novel way.
>
> But, that doesn't answer your question about "true to life" My feeling is that it's too much to expect from a movie, and perhaps even too much to expect from an accurate biography. In an interview with the biographer, Nash himself had difficulty explaining what he experienced. Many of the descriptions are based on what other people observed and heard Nash talk about during his illness.
>
>
> There was one historical inaccuracy that bugged me, though. The movie left the impression that Nash's work for the Pentagon was a delusion. Nash _was_ hired to do research at RAND from 1950-54 (under a Pentagon contract) and was granted 'secret' security clearence by the gov't. He applied the mathematics of game theory to the problem of strategy in nuclear conflict. He did not have the 'top-secret' clearence needed for access to nuclear weapons documents, though, so his work was mostly theoretical. (Unlike other researchers at RAND who formulated the strategies that were actually used.)
>
> That ommision made it easier to film the delusion scenes, but it also ignored the fact that in real life Nash worked on some pretty scarey stuff during the height of the cold war. His symptoms of paranoia surfaced at about the time of McCarthy. The question about if this "triggered" the onset of his condition is something that the book does not attempt to answer. But knowing these facts does put his life experiences in a broader persective. I seem to recall that some reviews of the film may have mentioned this idea.
>
>
> > I liked the way they portrayed him later in his life, as someone who could still give instruction and be useful to students. So it gives a public who might not be aware of the effects of disabilities a view that mental disability doesn't mean unable to work or do a job. More people need to know this...
> >
>
> I missed that positive aspect of the portrayal at the time I saw the movie. I guess I was too bothered by the idea that he "willed" himself to get better after going off his meds.
>
> That theme can't be blamed on historical inaccuracy, though. The real John Nash was quoted as saying that applying willpower to overcome his illness was like dieting. His own doctors wouldn't comment on that, although they could not explain his remission.
>
> I left the movie feeling rather low. If I don't get better, is it because I lack the willpower? Or, does that only work if you have a Nobel Prize winning intellect?? Ohh, and don't get me started on the "love conquers all" theme... I'll be typing for days! :)
>
> Having said all this, I now have to go take a shower, because I feel like I reek of Political Correctness! ;)
> After all, it's "only" a movie. Maybe these topics just hit a bit too close to home, for my comfort.
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2003, at 17:47:01
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!), posted by OddipusRex on January 8, 2003, at 17:32:59
I had some similar questions about the visual hallucinations(usually quite rare, as I understand it),the course of his illness, how long he was on meds, the effects of meds, etc. But I have to say, the movie was effective in one way--they had me. I knew some stuff was delusional but there was some that I didn't realize was delusional until well into the movie.
As for the Rand research--to me it was clear that he did work for Rand in some security clearance capacity. It just wasn't clear where the boundaries were (because of the delusions).
Some things that bothered me: first, for a movie that could pull that kind of effect off, there were some very sloppy details. To me, a movie of that expense should see to all the details. For example, Dr. Rosenberg was based in the Boston area, but when Nash has the later breakdown in his Princeton home, and his wife calls the doctor, the doctor appears almost instantly, as a local doctor. There were other detail problems like this, but this is the one that I remember now.
My friend thought I was being nit-picky, telling me it is just a movie, but I really think details can be important (Hitchkock or Allen would never have let those slip by).
The second thing I remember bothered me was this: after the breakdown scene, his wife gives the "love with conquer all" speech--this just seemed like Hollywood fluff to me.
Posted by M. Lee on January 9, 2003, at 10:28:26
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!), posted by Noa on January 8, 2003, at 17:47:01
> Some things that bothered me: first, for a movie that could pull that kind of effect off, there were some very sloppy details. To me, a movie of that expense should see to all the details. For example, Dr. Rosenberg was based in the Boston area, but when Nash has the later breakdown in his Princeton home, and his wife calls the doctor, the doctor appears almost instantly, as a local doctor. There were other detail problems like this, but this is the one that I remember now.
>Maybe the doctor wasn't really there!? ;)
I'm curuious, what other details did you notice? I hadn't picked up on that one.
> My friend thought I was being nit-picky, telling me it is just a movie, but I really think details can be important (Hitchkock or Allen would never have let those slip by).
>Yeah, attention to detail is important. It can make the difference between a good movie and a great film.
I read that for the movie "Titanic" they commisioned a set of china (identical to pieces retreived from the ocean bottom) for the dining room scenes. That seems a bit overboard, or rather the wrong kind of important detail.
In "2001" there is a scene where the human loses a game of chess to the intelligent computer. He seems to take it for granted that he would loose. But, the computer made a mistake during the game, kind of cheated, actually. It was the first sign in the film that something was wrong with the computer.I didn't know that fact until recently. An actor friend of mine suggested that this detail was just an accident. Until I pointed out that the director was a "chess hustler" in college - he used to play the game for money. The sequence of moves in the game that they played is from a chess tournament from like 150 years ago, with the only exception being the computer's "mistake." It's not likely that he would have taken the trouble to include such an obscure reference and gotten it wrong. It's not the kind of detail that I picked up on, but some people would have.
> The second thing I remember bothered me was this: after the breakdown scene, his wife gives the "love with conquer all" speech--this just seemed like Hollywood fluff to me.
>I don't recall reading any suggestion of that in the biography. It was one of things that really bothered me after seeing the movie.
Posted by syringachalet on January 10, 2003, at 0:10:07
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!) » Noa, posted by M. Lee on January 9, 2003, at 10:28:26
Im back...
In this movie, I saw enough of myself that it distrubed me.
There were times in my past that I had to learn
to ignore peoples voices and their faces that were not truly there. They were the voices of my Mother and others. I referred to them as the voices from my past...kind of like in A Christmas Carol with E Schrooge.
I had learned that to listen to them and do what they said got me into trouble and ruined my life. There were times in my past(esp during those first years of recovery) that i need a lot of 'gentle reality checks' from family and friends...I also often felt that i was being forced to'walk over the hot coals barefoot' to learn those things that most 'normal' people learn throughout their growing up and on into adulthood..I realized then I had a lot of catching up 'growing up..to do in the real world to fit in and be what I wanted in my life..More than anything, I..like John Nash, learned what my independence and freedom was worth. That daily freedom to pursue those things in life that are of value to me personally came with a price.
John obviously loved his wife and his work.
I have met a few people that have been labeled 'genesis', they were definitely not very social animals. I tend to think that it is like nature gave them this 'gift' and then expected them to devoted their whole lives on this Earth to help mankind and if they had time for a personal life after, then it was OK.Most of the really good surgeons (esp heart transplant surgeons) I have had the honor to meet have a JN type personality.. socialy distant, a non-people person, task oriented-focused. ( and quite frankly, if I had to have surgery, I wouldnt mind having a doc that his primary focus was doing a really good job on my surgery..)
Yes, there were lots of technicial medical pieces of this movie that I also could disect.
To do that would be like disecting a beautiful flower...once you have disected it, just how beautilful would it be then...Take Care.
syringachalet
Posted by wendy b. on January 16, 2003, at 21:21:38
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!) » wendy b., posted by M .Lee on January 8, 2003, at 13:22:30
Just ran across this link to an article about "A Beautiful Mind," from the web-zine Disability World, which maintains that John Nash was not in fact taking any psych-drugs for his schizophrenia at the time of his winning the Nobel Prize.
http://www.disabilityworld.org/01-03_02/arts/mind.shtml
The article says the screenwriters misled the public by having the Nash character say he was on some "newer" medication, when in fact he had gone into remission without the neuroleptics. Nash himself wondered whether the fact that one of the screen-writers was a psychiatrist, and possibly had a stake in the psychiatric drug-industry, had anything to do with the distortion of the facts. Interesting.
No, M.Lee, as a former student of the filmmaking arts, I don't ever think we're getting truth or even close to it on films like these. What I'm interested in is the *representation* of mental illness, and what it says about our culture. So I liked this thread, and felt I should revive it!
Best wishes,
Wendyps: Speaking of Russell Crowe, I watched "L.A. Confidential" for the first time today (yes, I'm way behind on that one!), and he was fabulous. What a great movie...
Posted by M. Lee on January 19, 2003, at 12:58:19
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!) » M .Lee, posted by wendy b. on January 16, 2003, at 21:21:38
Wendy, thanks for the link. I had noticed that same scene, also. In the biography Nash said that he went off the meds (and stayed off) because it interfered with his mathematical reasoning. He also said that he believed his delusions because they "came to me the same way my mathenatical ideas did. So, I took them seriously." After he won the Nobel he gave a speech to a group of psychiatrists and stressed the same point - what if an artist is "cured" and becomes "rational" But, he can't paint. Is that really a "cure?"
> http://www.disabilityworld.org/01-03_02/arts/mind.shtml
>
Although I noticed that detail, I was actually more bothered by Nash's claim that he "willed" himself to get better. I guess I've just met people who have had that attitude towards me "why can't (don't) you just..."> No, M.Lee, as a former student of the filmmaking arts, I don't ever think we're getting truth or even close to it on films like these. What I'm interested in is the *representation* of mental illness, and what it says about our culture. So I liked this thread, and felt I should revive it!
>I've never studied film myself. But, my ex did, so I probably learned a little through osmosis ;) I'm glad someone picked up on this thread, because I do enjoy discussing it. I saw Beautiful Mind early last year, and had some strong feelings about things portrayed in the movie. But, this is the first time I have talked about that with anyone.
I try to remember not to take movies "based on a true story!" literaly. Although, some movie companies seem to blur the line and sometimes represent or imply that the movie is historical (Pearl Harbor, Apollo 13. Not to open a can of worms, but JFK!) I mentioned Titantic in an earlier post. They "publicized" the lengths that they went to in getting the set and scenes accurate. Which, can give the false impression that they also depicted the events in the story with the same care. Caveat emptor!
Posted by Ritch on January 19, 2003, at 15:13:06
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? (SPOILER!) » M .Lee, posted by wendy b. on January 16, 2003, at 21:21:38
> Just ran across this link to an article about "A Beautiful Mind," from the web-zine Disability World, which maintains that John Nash was not in fact taking any psych-drugs for his schizophrenia at the time of his winning the Nobel Prize.
>
> http://www.disabilityworld.org/01-03_02/arts/mind.shtml
>
> The article says the screenwriters misled the public by having the Nash character say he was on some "newer" medication, when in fact he had gone into remission without the neuroleptics. Nash himself wondered whether the fact that one of the screen-writers was a psychiatrist, and possibly had a stake in the psychiatric drug-industry, had anything to do with the distortion of the facts. Interesting.
>
> No, M.Lee, as a former student of the filmmaking arts, I don't ever think we're getting truth or even close to it on films like these. What I'm interested in is the *representation* of mental illness, and what it says about our culture. So I liked this thread, and felt I should revive it!
>
> Best wishes,
> Wendy
>
> ps: Speaking of Russell Crowe, I watched "L.A. Confidential" for the first time today (yes, I'm way behind on that one!), and he was fabulous. What a great movie...
Hi Wendy, I just watched "A Beautiful Mind" for the first time a couple of weeks ago on HBO. They did an excellent job of setting up the delusions and making them look so real. It fooled me and others that were watching it at first. Everybody had competing ideas of what was really happening-except the idea of a hallucination. The cold-war paranoia in the historical background of the movie helped to make those delusions seem much more real. I think you are onto something about the screenwriting and "the new meds" thing. The number one thing that gripes me about movies nowadays is the blatant (and perhaps more sinister) subtle product placement that just HAS to be there. Military movies are getting close to being commercials for defense contractors, too.
Posted by syringachalet on January 19, 2003, at 15:28:13
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? » wendy b., posted by M. Lee on January 19, 2003, at 12:58:19
M. Lee,
I feel you were wise to be uncomfortable that the movie attempted to betray JN as "willed himself well".
I have never seen in 20 years of working as a mental health RN with many "JNs"( not genieous, just schizo) that he could not have ever just'willed himself well".
He could with medications and counseling, "help make himself better' but the disease would never be totally 'cured'.
As most of us know, mental illness isnt just something you wake up one day and you crazy.
It is a culmination from years of stress and experiences that teach us how to react in certain istuations. After the mind/body has been through these stress long enough, the mind starts to 'mentally checkout' and often depression ensues.
Some poor souls think that drowning their troubles in booze or drugs( Rx or street) will make it better. I had a psych prof tells me once that alcohol will never wash away your troubles...it will only irrigate them at little."Its after this stress continues, that we see the depression growing and invading our lives.
Because of social stigma or denial, we think if we ignore it, it will go away.
(My dentists says that too..ignore your teeth
and they will go away...)
In conclusion, JN regardless of his IQ or his analytical ability, could not have lived the kind of life that was even remotely portraited without some kind of medication. And the movie doesnt show(and I am sure he had them) some of the small set-backs/flareups) that comes from anyone suffering from mental illness.Someone once said that genious and crazy are only an inch apart in the brain...
Pretty scary stuff, huh??
syringachalet
Posted by M. Lee on January 21, 2003, at 6:09:15
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? » M. Lee, posted by syringachalet on January 19, 2003, at 15:28:13
Hi,
> I feel you were wise to be uncomfortable that the movie attempted to betray JN as "willed himself well".
>The movie portrays Nash's belief accurately. He really does think that he "willed" himself better.
Here's a couple of quotes from Nash's biography:
"Actually, it can be analogous to the role of willpower in effectively dieting: if one make an effort to 'rationalize' one's thinking then one can simply recognize and reject the irrational hypotheses of delusional thinking."
[Nash's son has been diagnosed with the same illness.]
"I don't think of my son ... as entirely a sufferer. In part, he is simply _choosing_ to escape from 'the world.'"
[The emphasis on _choosing_ is Nash's]
So, the willpower theme is not due to Hollywood embelishing the story.
I'm still uncomfortable with the idea. But, I blame Nash, not the film makers.
Posted by wendy b. on January 21, 2003, at 8:32:42
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? » syringachalet, posted by M. Lee on January 21, 2003, at 6:09:15
> Hi,
>
> > I feel you were wise to be uncomfortable that the movie attempted to betray JN as "willed himself well".
> >
>
> The movie portrays Nash's belief accurately. He really does think that he "willed" himself better.
>
> Here's a couple of quotes from Nash's biography:
>
> "Actually, it can be analogous to the role of willpower in effectively dieting: if one make an effort to 'rationalize' one's thinking then one can simply recognize and reject the irrational hypotheses of delusional thinking."
>
> [Nash's son has been diagnosed with the same illness.]
>
> "I don't think of my son ... as entirely a sufferer. In part, he is simply _choosing_ to escape from 'the world.'"
>
> [The emphasis on _choosing_ is Nash's]
>
> So, the willpower theme is not due to Hollywood embelishing the story.
>
> I'm still uncomfortable with the idea. But, I blame Nash, not the film makers.
Hi M.Lee and Syringachalet,This conversation is interesting... I knew I'd read stories, though, about remission in schizophrenia. Some research has borne this out. Just a couple examples from a quick google search:
http://www.healthrising.com/stories/schrem.html
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article460.htmlSo, whatever Nash attributed his recovery to (mind over matter, or willing himself well, or whatever), there is evidence that remission from the disease does happen. Which is painful to hear to people who struggle every damned day to "get over" their refractory schizophrenia, depression, bipolar, anxiety, PTSD, or other illnesses... It puts a lot of pressure on us and makes some of us feel that we're just malingerers.
I know that most people who visit psychobabble are more sophisticated in their thinking than this, but for an uniformed public just going out to see a movie like "A Beautiful Mind," it reinforces stereotypes about our illnesses that really could do without being reinforced. So Nash's struggle with his illness makes for a great tale of "moral courage," blah blah. And so interesting that the movie twists the facts to imply he got well because of new meds... But, hey, that's Hollywood.
best wishes,
Wendy
Posted by wendy b. on January 21, 2003, at 12:06:30
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' and remission fr. illness » M. Lee, posted by wendy b. on January 21, 2003, at 8:32:42
> I know that most people who visit psychobabble are more sophisticated in their thinking than this, but for an uniformed public just going out to see a movie .......
Sorry, that's *uninformed* (not uniformed). One month on lithium (I'm off, now, thank you god) and my typing still hasn't recovered. I just hate typos, and I ain't even got a beard!W.
Posted by noa on January 21, 2003, at 19:05:07
In reply to Re: ...remission fr. illness - small correction, posted by wendy b. on January 21, 2003, at 12:06:30
That's ok, Wendy, for a moment, "uniformed" made for a nice visual image!
No, just kidding, I hadn't even noticed the typo till you pointed it out. :- )
Posted by Willow on January 22, 2003, at 10:38:49
In reply to Re: ...remission fr. illness - small correction » wendy b., posted by noa on January 21, 2003, at 19:05:07
Regarding the typos, I think we are a "persnicky" group about details, and I've wondered how much of this characteristic has to do with our "conditions." Does our love for detail drive us nuts and, if so, can I learn to tune it down? Are we like those old albums that keep skipping at certain points repeating the same thing over and over again??
Regarding the remissions, way back in the spring SLS wrote a good reply concerning how the picture of depression changes with age. I luckily added it to my favourites with the intention of replying. Hmmm, how many times have my intentions fruited nothing? Well even Mother Nature isn't perfect; my plum tree will bear blossoms, even once had a few green plums but alas they vanished before ripening. But the anticipation of someday being able to sample it's treats keeps it from being added to my little night-fires; although, the depressive in me says do it because the plum will be too bitter to eat. Am I beginning to ramble yet? (I thank the increased dosage of meds or for those reading may want to curse it.)
So, here's the link to the post I was referring to: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020313/msgs/97946.html
SLS stated at the beginning of the post: "What you have described here is probably the rule rather than the exception. As one ages with depressive illness, the features of the depression change. Most often, the trend is towards dementia and away from depressed mood or melancholia. Dementia is a generic term with the following definition:"
The first noticeable difference as a result of my father's illness, schizophrenia, was probably caused by delusions which progressed to hallucinations, and thus odd very peculiar behaviour. Now, more than twenty years later he doesn't have either of the two. I would have to say he is left with the so called "negative" symptoms, which coincidentally are a more severe form of the same symptoms I have.
I don't know how factual the movie was but could see parallel's to my father's illness; though, his delusions, in my opinion, were more scattered, with each psychotic episode having a different theme, but all being based on paranoid thinking. Along similiar lines, I believe the movie called "Frailty" is a good portrayal of a child's life who has a parent with this illness, hollywood style of course. Signs is another movie which I see as synonymous too. After discussing it with a friend, she felt I saw too much. She thought the reactions of the family in Signs would be normal. I couldn't get her to understand that an adult watching television in a closet expecting to see space aliens was off from normalcy.
On a lighter side, she'll also argue with my viewpoint regarding the weather. Lately I don't recall her disagreeing with the fact that it is cold, but the depth of it is another story. The weather forcasters are promising that the temperature will rise to the minus teens in a few days, yet I'm sure I can find a forecast that would argue with this.
Enough rambling, off to bed.
Whooping Willow
Posted by OddipusRex on January 22, 2003, at 20:30:21
In reply to typos, remissions, and other ramblings, posted by Willow on January 22, 2003, at 10:38:49
John Nash in his own words
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/nash/sfeature/sf_nash.html
There's also a link to an article about schizophrenics who recover. It's not as rare as people might believe and it's not necessarily linked with being medicated.
> Regarding the typos, I think we are a "persnicky" group about details, and I've wondered how much of this characteristic has to do with our "conditions." Does our love for detail drive us nuts and, if so, can I learn to tune it down? Are we like those old albums that keep skipping at certain points repeating the same thing over and over again??
>
> Regarding the remissions, way back in the spring SLS wrote a good reply concerning how the picture of depression changes with age. I luckily added it to my favourites with the intention of replying. Hmmm, how many times have my intentions fruited nothing? Well even Mother Nature isn't perfect; my plum tree will bear blossoms, even once had a few green plums but alas they vanished before ripening. But the anticipation of someday being able to sample it's treats keeps it from being added to my little night-fires; although, the depressive in me says do it because the plum will be too bitter to eat. Am I beginning to ramble yet? (I thank the increased dosage of meds or for those reading may want to curse it.)
>
> So, here's the link to the post I was referring to: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020313/msgs/97946.html
>
> SLS stated at the beginning of the post: "What you have described here is probably the rule rather than the exception. As one ages with depressive illness, the features of the depression change. Most often, the trend is towards dementia and away from depressed mood or melancholia. Dementia is a generic term with the following definition:"
>
> The first noticeable difference as a result of my father's illness, schizophrenia, was probably caused by delusions which progressed to hallucinations, and thus odd very peculiar behaviour. Now, more than twenty years later he doesn't have either of the two. I would have to say he is left with the so called "negative" symptoms, which coincidentally are a more severe form of the same symptoms I have.
>
> I don't know how factual the movie was but could see parallel's to my father's illness; though, his delusions, in my opinion, were more scattered, with each psychotic episode having a different theme, but all being based on paranoid thinking. Along similiar lines, I believe the movie called "Frailty" is a good portrayal of a child's life who has a parent with this illness, hollywood style of course. Signs is another movie which I see as synonymous too. After discussing it with a friend, she felt I saw too much. She thought the reactions of the family in Signs would be normal. I couldn't get her to understand that an adult watching television in a closet expecting to see space aliens was off from normalcy.
>
> On a lighter side, she'll also argue with my viewpoint regarding the weather. Lately I don't recall her disagreeing with the fact that it is cold, but the depth of it is another story. The weather forcasters are promising that the temperature will rise to the minus teens in a few days, yet I'm sure I can find a forecast that would argue with this.
>
> Enough rambling, off to bed.
>
> Whooping Willow
>
>
Posted by M. Lee on January 23, 2003, at 5:08:22
In reply to Re: remissions, John Nash and other ramblings, posted by OddipusRex on January 22, 2003, at 20:30:21
Thanks for the link, a very interesting read!
Posted by syringachalet on January 24, 2003, at 5:28:06
In reply to Re: remissions, John Nash and other ramblings, posted by OddipusRex on January 22, 2003, at 20:30:21
Hello Willow and all other posters,
This has been a busy week...
Regrding your post above, Willow, you are right that people with schizophrenia "mellow" with age and that their symptoms seem to not move so fast and furiously all their waking hours..
All a living beings age; we all "mellow" with age and time..look at your parents with your kids and see just how much more tolerant they are with their grandchildren than they were when you were growing up.
For some of us, we have personally started to experience this 'mellowing' in our physical health as well. Those 5 pounds that we could drop in a week at 25 now take two weeks or more at 45 or 50 years old.
Also something happens to most people when they hit their 40s is they start to realize that they are no longer 'bullet-proof' and start to have more realistic and long-term expectations of themselves and those they choose to have in
their lives.They also start to learn get 'more comfortable' with themselves and who they are and how they fit into this world. I like to call it starting to the 'age of prespective'...LOL
Most of these things above are seem also in the mentally ill population in varying degrees.
By this time they have started to adapt as much as they can to their illness(both mental and physical should any exist). They have been through lots of pdocs and meds and have all the 'war stories' to prove it. Some are bitter because they got treated unkindly or were hurt deeply by someone they trusted or allowed themselves to be vulnerable to.I think John Nash, did this aging thing with great gusto.. as he did live his life... and although he had some dandy wars stories of his struggles with his MI, he probably had his share of periodic set-backs and times when he should have been or was on medications for reasons that this movie glossed over.
Yes, there could be that rare individual that might be able to survive without the medications that contain the chemicals that help him keep his brain and thoughts in check.
I would wonder just how much of a struggle it is for JN to have to fight those thoughts every waking hour and how tough it was on his own physical health and the lives of those he lives with on his really 'bad days'....Willow, now who is rambling...
syringachalet
Posted by Doolie on February 19, 2003, at 3:01:07
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone? » syringachalet, posted by M. Lee on January 21, 2003, at 6:09:15
> Hi,
>
> > I feel you were wise to be uncomfortable that the movie attempted to betray JN as "willed himself well".
> >
>
> The movie portrays Nash's belief accurately. He really does think that he "willed" himself better.
>
> Here's a couple of quotes from Nash's biography:
>
> "Actually, it can be analogous to the role of willpower in effectively dieting: if one make an effort to 'rationalize' one's thinking then one can simply recognize and reject the irrational hypotheses of delusional thinking."
>
> [Nash's son has been diagnosed with the same illness.]
>
> "I don't think of my son ... as entirely a sufferer. In part, he is simply _choosing_ to escape from 'the world.'"
>
> [The emphasis on _choosing_ is Nash's]
>
> So, the willpower theme is not due to Hollywood embelishing the story.
>
> I'm still uncomfortable with the idea. But, I blame Nash, not the film makers.I just watched ABM on video and was totally blown away. It's basically a movie about my life and this movie affected me deeply. I'm sitting here crying from emotion. In my case it's the opposite ... my wife has the illness and I'm the husband sticking by her..not easily. I found the movie incredibly accurate.. not on the small points that you guys mentioned maybe...but on the affect it has on the person and the people around them. From anger to frustration to fear to helplessness. eg. Trying to remember what she was like when I married her..and that brings comfort.. rage - the bathroom scene where she yells from frustration and shatters the mirror.. questioning god...then the scene where he takes out the garbage and she thinks he's talking to himself, but the garbage men were really there..that's happened to me on a number of occassions where i accuse her of a similar thing and it was innocent and rational...not knowing the future...slim hopes that life can return to normal eventually..a few examples. It also helped me to understand a little better her point of view and what she's suffering from. I just hope life keeps steady for her, me and the 3 children with no surprises anymore.
Posted by bozeman on February 19, 2003, at 7:37:44
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone?, posted by Doolie on February 19, 2003, at 3:01:07
God bless you for your patience, devotion, and strength in keeping your family together.
Posted by syringachalet on February 19, 2003, at 12:26:32
In reply to Re: 'A Beautiful Mind' anyone?, posted by Doolie on February 19, 2003, at 3:01:07
Doolie,
I am touched by your genuine compassion for this wonderful soul that you fell in love with who some days seems to be some one you hardly know.
the fact that you share children means you have to be both the husband and the Dad for everyone. that can truly take its toll.
If you sometime down the road need to have respite, remember that there are day treatment centers that do weekends and overnight. I had a client who was so debilitated that once every two months her husband went "fishing with the guys" and she went to "the spy" to rest and be "waited on". (This was really a daycare for adults with severe debilitated non-violent MI people).
To some this would seem unkind but for those who have other people to consider(childrens special needs and elderly parents) this is only a few days that you can also refcous your energy and both of you come back home feeling rested.
My prayers are with you, Doolie.
syringachalet
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