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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » dreamerz, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
This is an incredible reaction when you take into account that Jeff Foxworthy has made millions off of redneck jokes.
I know rednecks..virtually all of them would have your joke on their refrigerator door.Thank you,
Phil
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
The question at hand here is about the posting of "ethnic" jokes as a response to the post about "rednecks".
If we look at the following book title,[...The French Chef, by Sue Flay], there is humor in the title to some, [not ] because of [making fun of a person's {ethnicicity} or because the person belongs to a class of people or race or religion or national origin or handicap or sexual orientation etc...The person, Sue Flay, is [not] being ridiculed for being what they are, such as a person that has been labeled a "redneck". If we look at the following we could also see that a person is not being ridiculed for [being what they are].
One person asks another, "Why did the chicken cross the road, roll in a mud puddle, then cross the road again?"
The other person answers, "Because the chicken was a {dirty double- crosser.}
Now some people could think that was funny. And I have laughed at it myself. But the joke does not belittle people, or demean people or make fun of a peoples. I am not against telling a joke here. What I am against is the demeaning of a peoples by the venue of "joking" which is referred to as "ethnic" jokes. There is a differentiating body of factors that do make some jokes acceptable and some not. It is my beliefe that the overiding criteria to deem unacceptability is ;[Does it use language or expressions, innapropriatly toward a class or race of people, etc.., or expressions that demean a particular class of people?]. Dr bob just flagged the [...pizza ...olive...] post, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. I agree with him because it used an expression involving a class of people,inappropreatly, in this case by race.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 8:19:11
In reply to Lou's reply to NikkiT2's post » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
So correct me if I;m wrong...
You say it is NOT OK to make jokes based on someones ethnicity.
What about jokes based on someones sex??
Or sexual orientation??
Or religion?
Or occupation??
Or hair colour??
Or body shape??
Or driving ability??
The list is endless ( and please, this is a rhetorical question, no need to answer each point)
I am NOT saying any of this is right or wrong. What I am saying, is (and I will re-word this now), that any joke that contains a reference to a human, in any shape or form, is making fun of that person. Jokes about blonde women make fun of blonde women. Jokes about mother in laws make fun of mother in laws. Jokes about fat people make fun of fat people.
I do not believe that Oddipuss has never, ever, in his/her life, made a joke about someone in this way.If you can honestly, hand on heart, say you have NEVER told a joke about a human, in any form, you are a much better person than 99.999999% of the population of the world.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 8:22:25
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
You wrote about [...standards...]in referrence to acceptability or non-acceptability for posting humor here. If I was to make a page for the social board that addressed that , I would list the following criteria for OK or not OK:
The following are [not] OK:
A) Posts that use expressions of race or religion or nationl origin or sexual preferrence or handicap or gender etc. in an inappropriate manner.
B) Posts that demean, or ridicule a class or race etc.etc... of peoples.
C) other good or just causes to deem the post not[OK]
The following would be OK:
D)Posts that do not ridicule or demean peoples because of their ethnicisity or race, etc... even though the peoples may be mentioned.
When another poster here in the past wrote that W.C. Fields was asked, "Do you like children?" and his reply was, "It depends how they are cooked.". This is a good "test" example. The post ,IMHO, does not ridicule "children", even though "children" are used in the post.
But OTOH, if W.C. Fields was asked that question while he was visiting the ward in the Shriner's Burns Institute for children here in Cincinnati, then his reply would been "inappropriate".
Lou
Posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 8:41:00
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:14:20
I think that there isnt a soul among us that hasnt told what we considered in our social circles what we considered a very benign joke of some kind that might just happen to offend someone.(look at all the blonde jokes, the Pollock jokes or the Catholics priest jokes floating around...)
I thnk that being sensative to others is only part of solution. Knowing your audience and not taking everything so seriously and personally would probably help.
I have felt the rage and anger from some of the posters here over the past months. I cant help but think that someone,somewhere in their past has deeply hurt that person and some how they feel save to unleash those misdirected words at people who are just trying to be social and occasionally blow off a little too much.
But it is that same safety is shared by others that feel they can come here relax, joke about topics that we all see everyday and if we were truly honest, would be sometimes smiling inside ourselves.Perhaps if we all,myself included, 'lightened up' a little and tried to keep the really unkind comments to a minimum or to be shared in private, we could refocus on what I feel this board is all about....the lighter side of support groups/website that allow the posters to occasionally blow with control..in other words.. WITH DISCERTION.
Any major put down is cruel but knowing your audience and not being too sensative would probably help us all.. myself included.
syringachalet
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 8:47:53
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
Another critera for acceptability or not is to examine the post in the context of a mental-health forum.
There was just a post here that came from a book that addressed this and I think that it is great in describing this situation. But that was describing a different setting. Here, we are in a mental-health setting, each seeking "support" and education about our afflictions. So IMHO, the rules could be different here for posting the posts in question.
Someone posted here that these type of posts in question that involve peoples could be posted on their refridgerator. And that would be up to the individual [outside] of this forum. But would it be appropriate here on this forum? I do not think so, for ridicule and making fun of a class of peoples can be detrimental to the mental health of those peoples and ,possibly, others also.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 8:41:00
And thank you if you think I am overly sensitive. If that were the biggest problem the world faced, that people were overly concerned about hurting others, I can't imagine what a terrific world this would be.
On this thread there has been a tremendous negative reaction towards "sensitivity", as if that is a perfectly good characteristic to find unacceptable. I don't go around pointing out the characteristics of other people on this board, perhaps I'm just too "sensitive".
Oddipus, you were right. You were being put down, and I don't blame you if you leave. I think I'll take a break myself.
Dinah
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 8:58:48
In reply to Lou's reply to NikkiT2's post » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
I don't however have anything useful to add but I was feeling left out so I decided to to add my name to this thread too. :) :). Plus the thread seems to have become a little tame lately. Nothing like a good discussion to get the interest level up!
That's all this thread really is....isn't it? A REALLY good discussion!!!! I definitely can't make out anything about this thread that's particularly offensive....just a good debate between old friends really :) :).
I am Australian however so feel free to make lots of jokes at my expense. I promise I won't be offended as long as you don't hurt my feelings.
Lou, as an animal lover I was mortified at your chicken joke. I think chickens have suffered enough in their little cages laying eggs without having to be the butt of cruel jokes as well [Just Kidding :) :) ]
Phil, I was wondering when you were going to add your usual pearls of wisdom to the thread. How do you get away with the things you say without offending people. Please teach me:)
Ahh it's good to see my name up there with everyone elses!!!
Cheers everyone
bluedog
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 9:15:25
In reply to Is this thread finished yet?, posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 8:58:48
BD,
You wrote,[....that's all this thread is;....a really good discussion...]
I believe that this thread is [more] than just a good discussion for the issue is paramount to the mantal health of us here. For if it is allowed for posters to use the venue of "ethnic jokes" here, then I will not be able to post here unless I want to absorb the humiliation from the "ethnic" jokes, whether they be about me or others, for if they demean others, they also demean me also. That is why I object to these type of posts.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 9:30:00
In reply to Re: Is this thread finished yet? » bluedog, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 9:15:25
I have sai, quite a few times, that I am not getting into an arguement or disucssion on whether x is OK or whether y is OK.
I, personally, did not get offended by this one, but then, I have no idea what or who a redneck is... But I can understand why others did get upset.
My only point.. My ONE point I was trying to make to you, is that jokes, in one way or another, are making fun of someone or something. Thats all... nothing more, nothing less.
The "lightbulb" jokes (how many xxx's does it take to change a lightbulb) may seem harmless, but they are making fun of who ever the xxx is.
I know you are concerned with ethnic jokes, but I was simply pointing out that it is much more wide ranging than just ethnicity.
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
In reply to Re: Being sensitive is not a sin, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
Why is it that the only person to object to genuine vitriol was Dr. Bob, while at leat a half dozen people chimed in with how bad it was to be overly sensitive, and the rest of you said nothing?
That's something I don't really understand. As I told Sharon, I understand both sides of most issues. But I really don't get this.
I want to stay here and be supportive to you all, but I have to be able to understand this in order to feel supportive towards you.
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:56:24
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry.
Posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 10:12:18
In reply to Re: An apology to Dr. Bob and to Jay, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:56:24
Dinah,
You were Ok to just say how you feel. It really shouldnt have upset anyone here who cares and understands that being sensitive is fine. Its when people take everything posted here as if it is written specifically about them as an individual that emotions go on a rampage and people feel hurt and angry.
I value your ideas(you have had some pretty good ones by the way) and just wish that people could realize that we have posters here from every continent and culture posting here and what might not be a big deal where you live might be a VERY big deal elsewhere.
for me tolerance of diversity is my quest...
Take Care, Dinah.
syringachalet
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 10:14:35
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
OK,. I can only answer for me.
I can understand why you were upset.. I truly can.. And I don;t think you were being over sensitive.
I was just too busy arguing that ethnicity is not the only thing to be upset about though.. that just about all jokes (those that contain a human) make fun of someone... And that, as such, all those jokes are hurtful in their own way.
I don;t think its about being sensitive or not.. maybe I simply didn;t get this one... being in the UK and all.
Nikki
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 10:32:48
In reply to Re: Being sensitive is not a sin, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
>
> Oddipus, you were right. You were being put down, and I don't blame you if you leave. I think I'll take a break myself.
>
> DinahDinah
I hope it's only a really short break (May I suggest 10 minutes or so)....not so long ago you were asking ME not to leave.......now it's my turn Hah hah.(revenge is sweet).
I really enjoy your posts Dinah, and Oddipusses posts and Iso's post and Jays's post and I can go on ad-nauseam adding names to this list.
You are very sensitive and sweet Dinah and that is a large part of of your charm (but I must add also a large part of your downfall because you are so sensitive you take on the pain of others so easily)...you really should stop doing that for your own sanity...I know you love everyone on this board and you feel pain whenever ANYONE on the board is hurt or appears to be hurt. Has your therapist ever told you that your own pain is enough to deal with without taking on the pain of others?
Forgive me if my assessment of your character is wrong:)
At the end of your ten minute break just think of all those wonderful and supportive "Yay your Back" posts you'll get when you eventually make a post again.
Besides, you know your addicted to this site like the rest of us so I'd be willing to bet you can't stay away no matter how hard you try ( why put yourself through all those horrid withdrawal symptoms)
Love
bluedog
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
In reply to Re: Could you guys just answer one question?, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 9:53:33
This may sound a bit harsh, but I'm not looking to feel better about *myself*. I try hard to believe the best about everyone, that everyone means well, etc. And that takes effort sometimes. I'm trying to understand how the "sensitive" people came to be the bad guys on this thread. I'm trying to understand why no one (else) said to Oddipus that they understood his/her feelings and respected them. I reassured Oddipus that this was true. I tried to believe it. I even appealed to everyone to verify my beliefs. And all I saw was more posts about over-sensitive people, and good fun, and not to take things so seriously, etc. I am not asking that people agree about redneck jokes, I explained that over and over. I'm not saying that others meant harm, I said that over and over. I understand that the term rednecks is probably not understood in all parts of the world, I said that over and over.
But I also said over and over that people didn't mean to disparage those who were sensitive and who had certain values concerning jokes about groups. And yet post after post seemed to prove me wrong. And eventually it broke the camel's back. I could no longer believe that people didn't belittle the values of the "sensitive" persons.
I'm not looking to be asked to stay. I'm not looking for positive statements about me. I'm not looking to be welcomed back. My self esteem is just fine.
I'm trying to maintain my esteem for others, my caring for others, by asking you all straight out if you find sensitive people or sensitivity unacceptable or something to be mocked or belittled.
And if you do, I'm trying to understand why. Because understanding why people feel the way they do is how I maintain my positive feelings towards them.
Again, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. And this isn't intended for anyone in particular. But you guys have disappointed me in your reaction to Oddipus Rex. I don't understand why people couldn't have said "I understand that your values and your sensitivity lead you to feel uncomfortable with these jokes, and I respect that, but....." instead of "some people are so oversensitive, can't you take a joke". That's all.
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 11:22:08
In reply to Re: Don't fret IsoM, posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
> This is an incredible reaction when you take into account that Jeff Foxworthy has made millions off of redneck jokes.
> I know rednecks..virtually all of them would have your joke on their refrigerator door.
>
> Thank you,
>
> PhilPhil, have you come across any Foxworthy stuff about pulling teeth without seeing a dentist? I got a cavity when I was eight years old and it was hurting a lot. My parents didn't have the money (or couldn't afford to spend it) to take me to the dentist, so they tied fishing line to my tooth and the other end to a door knob and slammed the door. Out came the tooth! I guess that's how they took care of cavities during the Depression.
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 12:01:33
In reply to Re: FYI » Ritch, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 16:20:27
> Ritch, I hate to be overly sensitive, but doesn't it bother you that when someone says redneck someone else thinks of KKK and child beaters? Don't you think that jokes have a part in that? Jokes have traditionally been used to label groups and desensitize people to hatred.
>
> I don't like to argue, really. But sometimes saying nothing seems like it's saying something.
>
> I'm not talking so much now about IsoM's original jokes. I am sure she didn't mean to unleash what she did. And maybe it would have gone away quicker had Oddipus or I or Lou said nothing. But I've never been a big believer in peace at all costs.
>
> I don't mean to offend you, or IsoM, or Jay, or anyone. I'm sure that a lot of this is just confusion over terminology.
>
> I'm sorry that Oddipus was hurt by getting the impression that her values were being scoffed at. (I'm kind of used to it by now, but it used to hurt me.) I'm sure IsoM is hurt that her jokes were taken in a way that she never intended. And I'm sure that Jay is hurt too. So much hurt all the way around.
>
> As for you, you never offended me at all. You have a different opinion about redneck jokes, that's all.
Dinah, yes it is unfortunate that oftentimes the first thing someone thinks about a certain group is a negative thing as you mentioned. *Malicious* jokes do exist and those kind do foster negative stereotypes. I would call what Jeff Foxworthy does a "non-malicious" form of humor. When you belong to the group of people you are satirizing it is much different. When folks (like Foxworthy), can laugh about their own group's peculiarities it makes them feel better. I did note your dictionary definition included the term "often disparaging", and since dictionaries are into *usage*, then it is probably accurate that that word is *often used* in a disparaging manner. When I hear some of these pecularities it triggers good memories, not bad ones, and that is because I am very *familiar* with that group. It is *true* (i.e.) that in the small town I lived in for many years (actually I lived in the middle of nowhere and the "small town" was 12 miles away) the most common jobs to be had were-truck driver, mechanic, rancher/farmer. I had three uncles who were truck drivers, and many cousins that were too. Most people couldn't make enough money on farming/ranching alone. The "cars in the yard" thing that Foxworthy talks about is accurate and there is a reason for it. You have to spend a lot of your time driving long distances, and those "extra cars" are sources of spare parts. I've known people (I've done some of this myself) that might have three pickups), and two of them are for spare parts in case they have a breakdown(and they are pickups not cars because you have to have somewhere to stash the feed/seed/pigs/etc. and kids are in the back of the pickup because there isn't anywhere else for them to sit-I've done a lot of riding in the backs of pickups ;)). You learn how to be a decent mechanic because you have to. The circumstances dictate the reality. It is just "peculiar" because many folks do not share the same circumstances. I think humor is as much of a way to "bridge" experience between different groups as it is a way of fostering negative stereotypes. I think all this relates somehow to the psychological truth about behavior tends to be ascribed to character rather than circumstances.
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 12:06:13
In reply to Re: Please don't misunderstand., posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
>
> I'm trying to maintain my esteem for others, my caring for others, by asking you all straight out if you find sensitive people or sensitivity unacceptable or something to be mocked or belittled.
>Hello again Dinah
I am myself an EXTREMELY sensitive individual. There is absolutely no way that I would ever find sensitivity unacceptable and I doubt that others on this board would take that view either. I would be willing to bet quite a bit of money that the majority of the posters at PSB are actually very sensitive individuals no matter what bravado some posters may put up to the contrary.
I do however believe that both Oddipus and Iso had a misunderstanding and that they should have been left completely alone to work out there differences between themselves rather than everyone immediately jumping in to either take sides or play the role of peacemaker.
I believe that both Oddipus and Iso are both sensitive caring individuals and that through a misunderstanding they hurt eachother.....though there is no way I would class the wounds inflicted as mortal. They hurt eachother through absolutely no malicious feelings or intent to hurt on the others part.
However they are also both adult human beings and believe that had everyone just "butted out" they would have sorted out their differences all on their own and come to a greater and deeper understanding of eachother and probably even ended up coming away from the experience as great friends. I don't think it benefits disagreements on this board when everyone feels the immediate need to jump in with their own two cents worth.
I honestly believe that in these situations that Bob should develop or fine tune the civility rules to BAN everyone from taking part in a difference of opinion between individual posters until the individuals concerned have had the opportunity to discuss their differences with eachother individually without the waters being muddied by everyone else immediately jumping in to either take sides or to try and play peacemaker. Of course malicious personal attacks should not be tolerated but I strongly believe that Bob or someone acting in an official role as one of Bob's deputies should be the ONLY persons allowed to add to these discussions to ensure that the discussions remain within certain civility guidelines.....but some leeway and flexibilty should be allowed for the posters to vent their feelings.
Only if it becomes clearly apparent that the individuals will not be able to resolve their differences should Bob then step in and ban further posts on the particular topic for a set period of time (a cool off period if you like) say for a period of two weeks. He should not block the individuals unless one or the other persists in discussing the topic after Bob has imposed a "cool Off" period. I guarantee you that by the end of the cool off period that the posters would have been able to take a step back to put things into perspective and in most liklihood decide that their differences were really not that significant or earth shattering after all and may even decide to simply agree to disagree on a very amicable basis.
Just my opinion really but I again emphasise that I in no way find sensitivity unacceptable and actually find sensitivity a positive character trait rather than a character flaw in any individual.
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 12:23:18
In reply to Re: Please don't misunderstand., posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 11:04:45
That's the sort of dialogue that helps me understand everyone's position without feeling badly towards anyone. And I really really do believe that in the vast majority of cases that sort of dialogue can sort out misunderstandings that lead to anger and hurt feelings. That's why I asked outright rather than simmered.
Ritch, you're so right about our tendency being to ascribe behavior to character and not circumstances. That's why I prefer to ask for clarification when I'm tempted to do the former.
Sorry if I overreacted, guys. I tend to try too hard to be calm and reasonable, then blow it past a certain point.
And Nikki, I'm sorry. I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. It has to be frustrating for you to be in that position.
I'm feeling better now.
Posted by dreamerz on February 2, 2003, at 12:46:36
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » dreamerz, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
Hi Nikki
The majority of shops here are ..Turkish/Asian/Jamacian er I'm not sure of some: )
I guess I'm too sedated to care outside. I see muslim wemoen around the streets but they seem kind of sad ..that's how I see them maybe they're not.
I moved recently from an area predominantly asian --indian -pakistan--I loved that area ..
Anyway...best to keep out of way if there is a pocket of tension although you may feel you have every right to go about wherever..it's not fair I know... some will always use the racist card as an easy defense..it's crazy out there.
Take care..
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 13:03:09
In reply to Re: Thank you Ritch and Bluedog, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 12:23:18
Thanks Dinah...
I did feel a little misunderstood.. but decided saying it anymore wasn't going to help.
I, for certain, am very sensitive on certain issues... I think everyone has certain "triggers" what ever they say.
*gives you a sunday evening hug*
Nikki x
Posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 15:20:19
In reply to Re: Thank you Ritch and Bluedog, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 12:23:18
Posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 15:55:22
In reply to Re: Don't fret IsoM » Phil, posted by Ritch on February 2, 2003, at 11:22:08
Yeah, I remember when someone had a loose tooth we'd say tie it to a door knob.
I had a molar pulled by a dentist; root canal gone bad, and I was on the verge of passing out from pain when he pulled the second half of the tooth out. They hit the oxygen and I came to.
Next time I have a painful procedure, if the dentist doesn't knock me out, I'll find a way. Pain sucks.
Posted by judy1 on February 2, 2003, at 16:18:25
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
thanks so much for the site, it really helped me with ways to handle ethnic jokes. I am guilty of not confronting even when something said makes me uncomfortable, I plan on practicing the response 4 method until I feel comfortable using it. take care, judy
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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