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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 2:50:06
In reply to Re: Music and Math for sid » IsoM, posted by Krazy Kat on January 15, 2002, at 21:29:30
Not really sure as to your question but it probably is based on equations. I have absolutely no musical training at all. I was the weird kid who used to beg for music training but we couldn't afford it when I was small. I don't know if musicians are good at math but most mathematicians seem to be good at music.
>
> Isn't music based on mathematical equations? But then, why do some people do well at music and not math? It's all a mystery to me.
>
> Math does teach a certain type of logic, which I think is invaluable.
>
> - KK
Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:11:53
In reply to Music and Math for sid, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 20:12:43
I do applied math, not pure math. I do economics... and when you say it's a game for you, well... in part, I do applied game theory. Based, namely, on the stuff that John Nash won a Nobel Prize for (movie and book A Beautiful Mind - he's a mathematician). You should read the book, you might enjoy it. It's not all about his research, but it's about the people and places he evolved with at different times in his life. Also, I thing you'd enjoy game theory. Try the book Thinking Strategically by Dixit and Nalebuff.
Do you have any refs for me on patters and such ? You mentioned fractals. I have read very little on those so far, but I'm interested. Anyway, references of fun stuff to read would be appreciated!
BTW, I went to the web site www.brainplace.com. You can do a test there to try and see which parts of your brain are problematic. In my case, I score "may be possible" for depression (limbic system hyperactivity - I have dysthymia), and "probable" for anxiety (basal ganglia hyperactivity). Anyhow, I found it interesting. There is a section on "Music and the Brain" !!! It sayd to listen to music, sing and humm as much as possible - it helps the brain apparently. I know that for anxiety, meditation is recommended, with a mantra even better (ohmmmmm, or something else). Go read it, I think you might find it interesting too.
Nice talking about things that captivate us, other than our mental problems!
Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:14:47
In reply to Re: Music and Math for sid » IsoM, posted by Krazy Kat on January 15, 2002, at 21:29:30
I actually heard of a new prof, a woman, at the university I teach at, who's both in the Math and Music Departments. She has 2 PhD's, one in each discipline. She must be very interesting... If I stay here in the long run (I have a temporary job for now), I'll try to catch a class or two of hers.
Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:17:30
In reply to Re: Music and Math for sid, posted by Seamus2 on January 15, 2002, at 22:22:23
I once was upset with a problem a prof had given us in class. He said anyone solving it would automatically pass the class. Well, I thought about it so much that I dreamt about it, woke up in the middle of the night, wrote it all down, and looked at it in the morning. It was right, and I was the only one to solve it in the class! Proof that the brain does not sleep while we do.
Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:20:49
In reply to Re: Music and Math » Seamus2, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 2:45:16
In languages other than English, objects are often feminine or masculine. What is weird is that it changes from one language to the other (French vs. Spanish for example)! That's confusing...
In French and Spanish:
knife - masculine
spoon - feminine
Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 13:39:25
In reply to Re: Music and Math » IsoM, posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 8:20:49
I've already gone to Brain Place from a post you left in PB. Now to try the tests...
So do objects seem masculine or feminine to you sometimes?
Hooray for you for solving that problem & no one else. Sounds to me like you're very good at math. Sounds like Kekule von Stradonitz, a chemist, who came up with the benzene ring theory after thinking & dreaming about it. He dreamed of a snake holding its tail in its mouth.
I know little about game theory, I'll have to look over the book you recommended & get back to you on some math books, specially about fractals. Not that I could do the math involved, it's just nice to learn about it without doing calculations.
I read about John Nash years ago & his game theory work. A *very* interesting, extremely intelligent man - not sure that I'd like him personally & not due to his illness but his personality in general. The movie sugar coats it.
Ahh, music & the brain. It has such powerful effects, both good & bad - but mostly good. I'm off to read more on the Brain Place....
> In languages other than English, objects are often feminine or masculine. What is weird is that it changes from one language to the other (French vs. Spanish for example)! That's confusing...
>
> In French and Spanish:
> knife - masculine
> spoon - feminine
Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 14:11:45
In reply to Re: more Music and Math for Sid » sid, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 13:39:25
Yes, objects have gender to me because my mother tongue is French, where everything is either feminime or masculine. There is no concept of "it", just he and she in French (same in Spanish, Portuguese, and I suppose other latin-based language such as Romanian and Italian).
-Sid
Posted by susan C on January 16, 2002, at 17:09:38
In reply to perspectives on math and abstract form (nm) » Seamus2, posted by susan C on January 16, 2002, at 16:53:30
oops clicked the no message box by mistake. there is the message for seamus2 and who ever else is interested
http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_tech/wavelets/haar.html.The chart in Introduction is one i saw in an old Wired magaizine. Yes, i read all sorts of things. This particular graph caught my eye, particularly because I couldn't understand anything about it.
mouse playing hopscotch (a higher form of math)
Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 19:13:49
In reply to Re: more Music and Math for Sid » IsoM, posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 14:11:45
Sid, here's an introduction to Fibonacci numbers that I promised. All of the info is on one page so depending on your download speed, it might take a while but is worth it. there's some neat little things to try too.
I really think this site would be useful in teaching students to develop an interest in numbers & why math is so important. Even if they never chose to do math themselves, they can still appreciate it. And we're never to old to develop that appreciation ourselves.
Fibonacci Numbers In Nature: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html
I'll get to the fractal geometry later.
Posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 20:04:42
In reply to Fibonacci Numbers for Sid, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 19:13:49
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53
In reply to Thanks IsoM !!! (nm) » IsoM, posted by sid on January 16, 2002, at 20:04:42
Babbledom people:
I have just foung this place. What have I missed and what kind of place is this?
Lou
Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 20:56:19
In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53
I really haven't been on PB, either med or social side for very long - just lurked for a while as I suspect many did. There's some who know each other for quite a while now & drop back to check on each other. It's a nice, friendly atmosphere with lots of support for each other, ideas, suggestions, & humour too, not just all about our depression. The "I may be crazy but I'm not stupid" attitude is good - whatever it takes to help each other.
I notice there's more women than men here, but perhaps the men are a little shy, or think this is a women's den, or maybe just haven't discovered their nuturing side yet. The men here adds some interesting touches, I'd say! Welcome, Lou!
> Babbledom people:
> I have just foung this place. What have I missed and what kind of place is this?
> Lou
Posted by Jonathan on January 16, 2002, at 21:45:06
In reply to Re: PB social side!!! » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 20:56:19
> I notice there's more women than men here, but perhaps the men are a little shy, or think this is a women's den, or maybe just haven't discovered their nuturing side yet. The men here adds some interesting touches, I'd say! Welcome, Lou!
Here's a male mathematician's answer to Lou's question:
> > > What a group!!! Group people; If yo know the next number in this sequence, let me know. Lou
> > > 1,1,2,3,?
>
> Babbledom people: To clarify the Fibbonacci sequence 1,1,2,3, ? The next number is 5. Now someone tell me the next number in this sequence. Hint: It is not 7.Let's see, 1, 1, 2, 3 and 5 obviously all fit the de Moivre-Binet formula
[(1+r)^n - (1-r)^n] / (r.2^n), where r is the square root of 5,
for n = 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. I'd guess that substituting n=6 and simplifying should give me the answer you require ... yes, the irrational number r mysteriously disappears like a Cheshire cat, leaving the answer eight :)
If you're over 16 years old < g >, then you may like to disable the parental controls on your web browser and look at a cute Argand diagram of the continuous, complex function described by this formula when n doesn't have to be a whole number. Example for Harry Potter fans: Fibonacci number nine-and-three-quarters is about 48.77 plus a very small multiple of the square root of -1, just enough to shift it off the real axis so that it can't be seen by muggles (as we call those unfortunate ordinary humans who don't share our mathemagical powers):
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibFormula.html#binetReal
This is from Ron Knott's excellent web pages on the Fibonacci numbers, which start at
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fib.html
Welcome to Dr-Bob's Psychomathemagical Babble, Lou.
Jonathan.
Posted by IsoM on January 17, 2002, at 1:36:06
In reply to A man adds an interesting touch » IsoM, Lou Pilder, posted by Jonathan on January 16, 2002, at 21:45:06
Posted by Seamus2 on January 17, 2002, at 1:43:48
In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53
> what kind of place is this?< <
A place where most of us know about the next number in a Fibonacci sequence!
Welcome aboard! Just got here yesterday, as a matter of fact.
Seamus
Posted by lou pilder on January 17, 2002, at 5:58:05
In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Seamus2 on January 17, 2002, at 1:43:48
> > what kind of place is this?< <
>
> A place where most of us know about the next number in a Fibonacci sequence!
>
> Welcome aboard! Just got here yesterday, as a matter of fact.
>
> SeamusWhat kind of ship am I on here?
Lou
Posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 7:55:08
In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2002, at 20:41:53
Basically, if you're not posting about medication, you come here. If you want to talk about the administration of this site (complaints, ideas, etc.), then yougo to the Psycho-Babble Administration page instead. We keep mixing our postings, so Dr Bob redirects us. We have trouble (at least I do) not posting on the wrong page when the conversation is interesting. Like the one on music and numbers !
Welcome!
> Babbledom people:
> I have just foung this place. What have I missed and what kind of place is this?
> Lou
Posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 7:56:41
In reply to Re: PB social side!!! » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 20:56:19
Perhaps talking about PMS all the time scares the men away! ;-)
Posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 8:00:24
In reply to Re: Thanks IsoM !!!, posted by lou pilder on January 17, 2002, at 5:58:05
I'd never heard of a Fibonacci sequence before... but I guessed the pattern anyway. Thanks for all the web sites about math, I'll be having lots of fun with them !
> > > what kind of place is this?< <
> >
> > A place where most of us know about the next number in a Fibonacci sequence!
> >
> > Welcome aboard! Just got here yesterday, as a matter of fact.
> >
> > Seamus
>
> What kind of ship am I on here?
> Lou
Posted by Jonathan on January 17, 2002, at 16:53:33
In reply to To Lou and Jonathan, posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 8:00:24
> I'd never heard of a Fibonacci sequence before... but I guessed the pattern anyway.
Yes, the de Moivre-Binet formula is rather obvious - it's amazing that no-one thought of it before 1730 ;) Actually, guessing from so few terms that each is the sum of the previous two is impressive: I'm not sure if I could have done the same if I didn't already know some reasons why the sequence generated by this simple rule is so interesting.
> Thanks for all the web sites about math, I'll be having lots of fun with them !
It's nice to read the words `math' and `lots of fun' in the same sentence :) I'm glad you like the Fibonacci site. I found it independently, but am sorry I didn't notice earlier that IsoM had posted a link to it a couple of hours before I did; she deserves your thanks more than I do.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020112/msgs/16860.html
and I've just found your reply thanking her for this post!
As Ron Knott says, "Like many results in Mathematics, it is often not the original discoverer who gets the glory of having their name attached to the result, but someone later!"
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibFormula.html#finder
Jonathan.
Posted by Jonathan on January 17, 2002, at 16:58:55
In reply to Re: PB social side!!! » IsoM, posted by sid on January 17, 2002, at 7:56:41
> Perhaps talking about PMS all the time scares the men away! ;-)
I don't understand: why do you think that talking about polynomial metric spaces scares men more than women? If I dared to say the opposite I'd deservedly be flamed for political incorrectness.
Only kidding - please don't explain ;)
Perhaps the real reason why we men would rather chat in a nice friendly bar than PSB is because there's no beer here - but that's a medication issue, which belongs on the other board.
Jonathan.
Posted by lou pilder on January 18, 2002, at 17:56:34
In reply to Fibonacci Numbers for Sid, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 19:13:49
> Sid, here's an introduction to Fibonacci numbers that I promised. All of the info is on one page so depending on your download speed, it might take a while but is worth it. there's some neat little things to try too.
>
> I really think this site would be useful in teaching students to develop an interest in numbers & why math is so important. Even if they never chose to do math themselves, they can still appreciate it. And we're never to old to develop that appreciation ourselves.
>
> Fibonacci Numbers In Nature: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html
>
> I'll get to the fractal geometry later.Babbledom people, help!
I believethat there is a cure to stop the music and that the cyre is mathematical. Think , I say, think.
Lou
Posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 2:42:43
In reply to Music and Math for sid, posted by IsoM on January 15, 2002, at 20:12:43
> I see life like a tapestry, almost everything I look at or observe, nature, people's social contacts, birds, clouds & sky with trees, it's all a pattern. I don't so much 'see' the patterns as 'sense' them. It's very much like there's another sense involved than the normal 5 senses but I have no name for it.
--------------------------------------------------Hi IsoM---
It's nice to encounter another pattern person. Patterns--visual, auditory and virtual--have dominated my perception and cognition all of my life. I think of it as my x-ray sense, because patterns are the structural bones/skeletons of all matter (its internal and external relationships). Various applications of pattern recognition and memory are measurable aptitudes which seem to be partially heritable (Johnson O"Conner). I don't know how many have detected that these abilities are component parts of a pattern "sense"--or have written about it. I figured that I got an oversupply of pattern sense because I have so little of other more common (and useful) abilities. My ability to recognize or remember single items which don't make a pattern for me (visual observation) is near zero; and my ability to reorder patterns to create novel structures (creativity) is not much better.
Re music and math: For me, both of these are expressions of patterns. The written notation of music describe the temporal, tonal and rhythmic relationships of auditory patterns. Math notation describes virtual patterns (which may or may not be quantitative). I've always found the connectedness of patterns fascinating. For example, fractals are expressed physically (trees, fern leaves), auditorially (pink and brown noise, fractal music), visually (brilliantly colored "graphs") and virtually (financial market analysis). For me, reality is all about patterns, whichever perceptual sense is used and whatever notation describes them.
Thanks for the interesting thread!---medlib
P.S. Have you considered just recording the songs you'd like to remember? A musician could transcribe them from your recording, if you wish.
Beauty need not always be as ephemeral as normalcy.
Posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 3:30:56
In reply to Re: Music and Math » Seamus2, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2002, at 2:45:16
> Seamus, do you get a feel about inanimate objects whether they're male or female? I do about some things like cutlery or other small objects. For example, a knife is male but spoons are female to me - same with numbers, some are male, some female.
--------------------------------------------------IsoM--
I think there may be a human instinct to regard those forms containing curved shapes and/or obtuse angles as feminine and forms expressed by long, straight lines and/or acute angles as masculine.
With numerals, that would make 0, 2, 3, 6, and 8 feminine and 1, 4, 7 masculine. 5 and 9 might be transgender, depending on type font. Of course, 10 is clearly bisexual! Do you sense them that way?
Have you ever considered why Nature is a Mother and Time is a Father? I think it's because nature is mostly curved and time has been thought of as linear (at least until Einstein got hold of it).
A frivolously rambling medlib
Posted by lou pilder on January 19, 2002, at 7:32:58
In reply to Re: The gender of forms » IsoM, posted by medlib on January 19, 2002, at 3:30:56
>
> > Seamus, do you get a feel about inanimate objects whether they're male or female? I do about some things like cutlery or other small objects. For example, a knife is male but spoons are female to me - same with numbers, some are male, some female.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> IsoM--
>
> I think there may be a human instinct to regard those forms containing curved shapes and/or obtuse angles as feminine and forms expressed by long, straight lines and/or acute angles as masculine.
>
> With numerals, that would make 0, 2, 3, 6, and 8 feminine and 1, 4, 7 masculine. 5 and 9 might be transgender, depending on type font. Of course, 10 is clearly bisexual! Do you sense them that way?
>
> Have you ever considered why Nature is a Mother and Time is a Father? I think it's because nature is mostly curved and time has been thought of as linear (at least until Einstein got hold of it).
>
> A frivolously rambling medlibNot frivolous at all. I believe that the Babbledom people will find a way to reverse the music so that it will stop. I percieve a collection of great minds here. We shall find the solution. Ten Babbledom people equal one nonBabbledom person. (Lou's Law of Babbledom)
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