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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 9:47:18
Okay, how many of you were drawn in by that subject line, even those who are easily offended? How many of you just HAD to see what I was on about? :)
I was just curious. There was this huge debate between some of my friends today, and I was interested in what everyone here has to say.
Abortion. For/Against/Unsure. Why?
Posted by Racer on January 7, 2001, at 17:10:49
In reply to Warning!Nothing in msg about dep. Topic may offend, posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 9:47:18
OK, I don't, but you're right, the subject line drew me right in! LOL
As for abortion, that's a tough subject. Abortion is morally neutral. It simply means the end of a pregnancy, without a live birth. I should know, having experienced numerous spontaneous abortions.
(BTW, that last line was there for one reason: to remind people that this can be a painful subject. I want children, and the miscarriages I've experienced have been horrendously painful for me. Guess what? I've never known anyone to choose a medical abortion and not go through similar pain.)
Realistically, if elective abortions are outlawed, the only women who will suffer will be poor women and women in rural areas. The women who have money and access to good medical care will still be able to end pregnancies safely. Why? Go talk to any good doctor in an urban area. They already have their networks in place, at least in my area.
About ten years ago, when it first looked as though elective abortion might be outlawed, my doctor told me and every other woman of childbearing years in her practice that we didn't have anything to worry about. She and a number of other doctors had already agreed to provide safe elective abortions for anyone who asked. They would simply prescribe the procedure as a medical necessity for psychological reasons.
How many county clinics do you think are going to do that?
And for any of us who remember the debate before Roe v Wade was decided, the reality of illegal abortions, the number of women we knew then who died or came close to dying from those illegal abortions, the real effect of bearing children who could not be supported, the psychological aftermath of putting a child up for adoption, all this tells me that outlawing abortion is a really bad idea.
I don't believe there are many women out there who see abortion as an alternative to using contraceptives. There are some out there, just as there are some people out there robbing banks. Abortion is too serious and personal a matter to be legislated. The medical technology exists, and therefore it must be protected.
BTW, a friend of mine just lost one of his best friends. She had a stroke in the last stages of pregnancy, due to that rise in BP that some women experience. She was in an irreversible coma, they took the baby, and took her off life support. She was in good health, athletic, and not yet 30 years old. Let's remember that childbirth is still dangerous for women, too.
OK, I'm done with my diatribe. Hope you enjoyed it...
Posted by dennis on January 7, 2001, at 19:22:11
In reply to Warning!Nothing in msg about dep. Topic may offend, posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 9:47:18
I think abortion is a very good idea for some women, but if a woman decides to do it they should do it very early in the pregnancy and not wait until their like 5 or 6 months pregnant. If a woman was 6 or 7 months pregnant and had a abortion I think that would be wrong, if it was a perfect world there would be no need for abortion but this world is far from perfect and abortion is a nessesary evil, do you know about the "day after pill" they have now, it is a safe and very effective pill to prevent pregnacy and I think they should be giveing it out like candy.
Posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 20:57:12
In reply to I find that really offensive!, posted by Racer on January 7, 2001, at 17:10:49
Wow - a great stance. I personally come in the unsure category. I definately see both sides of the coin, and as you have so brilliantly put it - if abortion were illegal it would probably damage a lot of women, and do nothing for morality.
I hope I didn't open anything raw. Sorry if I did. I'm not old enough to even think about having children, but my mother had a still born baby, and she also miscarried my non-identical twin. I have some understanding, then, of how painful this subject can be. I was very interested, though, to see what everyone here thought.
Thank you for your insightfulness (is that a word?), Racer.
Posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 21:03:57
In reply to Re: Warning!Nothing in msg about dep. Topic may offend, posted by dennis on January 7, 2001, at 19:22:11
I'm not sure that the morning after pill is entirely safe - at the very least it has a lot of yuck side effects.
My mother is a nurse, and she sometimes works in day operations. She told me about a woman who was 21 years old. She was coming in for some kind of simple operation. When asked if she had had any previous operations
"Yes, I've had seven abortions." She didn't use contraception because she was Catholic, and so used abortion as a form of contraception (which to me, seems to be hypocritical).BTW, in case anyone is thinking this may be a breach of confidentiality (Mum telling me this stuff), it is only if my Mum told me the girl's name &/or what operation she was having. (which she didn't).
But you are right. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even know what abortion was.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 8, 2001, at 8:26:56
In reply to I find that really offensive!, posted by Racer on January 7, 2001, at 17:10:49
As a woman, I honestly believe it is each womans choice whether or not she should have an abortion. I am a great believer in NOT bringing children into the world when you are not ina position to give them the kind of life they deserve. both with love, material things, and the stability they need.
I am 26 and married, but don't feel ready for a child. I know some people would argue "why have sex then", but I enjoy it, and theres so few enjoyable things left in life. I take precautions, but have been caught out int he past (I miscarried luckily). Anyway, I don't feel that at the moment I could give a child everything that child needs and deserves. I haven't enough love right now, and I would feel the child was ruining my life. That said, I am incredibly maternal and broody so who knows what would happen!!
men are also very quick to give their opinions, but they are not the ones that ahve to carry a child for 9 months, go through all the hormonal changes,a nd then give birth.Difficult subject, I am VERY pro-choice.
Nikki
Posted by Racer on January 8, 2001, at 14:06:29
In reply to Re: I find that really offensive!, posted by NikkiT2 on January 8, 2001, at 8:26:56
You know, a lot of my friends think pro-choice means pro-abortion. It doesn't. I'm anti-abortion, but I'll defend to the death your right to make your own choice. If you choose abortion, as the right choice for you, you can come to me and I'll hold you while you cry, or bring you tea and sympathy. I won't think less of you, in fact I'm likely to think more of you for having the strength to make a decision that difficult.
Think of all the people out there who think that the decision to have an abortion is as easy to make as the decision to paint your toenails pink instead of red.
Great debate, and it's nice to think of something other than my problems for a change!
Posted by S. Howard on January 9, 2001, at 22:01:11
In reply to Re: I find that really offensive!, posted by Racer on January 8, 2001, at 14:06:29
I am pro-choice mainly for the sake of the baby. There is nothing more terrible than an unwanted child...while people don't like to think of child abuse, it happens. It's better never to be born than to be tortured.
Of course there is adoption, but very, very few people out there want to adopt a crack baby.
As for the woman with seven abortions...I hope she's sterile by now.
Posted by shar on January 11, 2001, at 12:08:33
In reply to Pro-choice, posted by S. Howard on January 9, 2001, at 22:01:11
I used to work in a clinic where abortions were performed. I was a "counselor" which meant my job was to make sure that the woman I was talking to had made her decision of her own free will, knew all of the alternatives, had discussed this with close friends or family, was not under undue pressure to have the procedure, and was really choosing to terminate the pregnancy.
I guess that's the "choice" part of pro-choice. It might surprise you the number of women who had been pressured by family or the boyfriend/spouse--which adds a whole different level of concern for her.
There was the occasional (rare) individual who had numerous abortions, and--for me--the former nun and other "pro lifers," the woman in her 50's who I saw time 1 and time 2--she thought she could not get pregnant due to being menopausal. She did finally ask her husband to get a vasectomy.
There were also the women I turned away, told to go home and think carefully about all of their options, talk to their boyfriend or whomever, and come to a clear decision. Having the procedure had to be their choice because they would be living with it the rest of their lives.
But, mostly, the women I saw tended to be young, distraught, scared, feeling guilty, and yet knew it would be best for them at that time. I never knew one woman, as Racer said, for whom it was an easy choice.
Thank god they had the choice to have a safe medical procedure.
Shar
Posted by tdaneen on January 11, 2001, at 15:02:13
In reply to Re: Pro-choice, posted by shar on January 11, 2001, at 12:08:33
Shar! I didn't know Elvis wrote a song about you !
Just kidding. Long time no talk! Anyway I have a story it is true. It is a story about the tiny blessings we can still be given even when we make a choice that has dire concequences.
I've waited a long time to share what happened to me.
I've not spoken about it, but I have had one pregnancy terminated. My Catholic husband didn't want the baby, and I didn't want to lose my husband.
I had a friend drive me to the clinic which was over three hours away.
I was ok until I got on the table for the procedure. You see, I am an inscest survivor. I started having flashbacks, and they had to give me a "cocktail." The medication was too much for me, and I became very sick from it. I remember I was crying, and crying....afterwords they got me up and walked me to a recovery area that had reclining chairs in it. There were six or eight other women there. I was still crying and crying...next to me was this woman/girl...she must have been as drugged up as I was, but she just saw how upset I was. She reached out her hand to me, and I held her hand as I cried.
I never knew her name, or really what she even looked like.
I've never had many woman friends. In fact it was a male friend who drove me to the clinic that day. I had never known such a pure, selfless gesture. Someone who must have been in pain themselves, reaching to comfort someone else. It made an enormous impact on me. I will forever remember her, whoever she was, and will always wonder if she had any idea how much she comforted me that day.
I made a promise to myself. If I ever saw another woman hurtin I would think of "her," and reach out. I've never been a "sisterhood" kind of gal, but I learned a valuable lesson.
I've always wanted a way to thank her...I guess that just telling my story is a way.
Thanks for listening.
Posted by Cass on January 11, 2001, at 18:35:44
In reply to Re: Warning!Nothing in msg about dep. Topic may offend, posted by dennis on January 7, 2001, at 19:22:11
I'm highly pro-choice. I believe that if people do not have the choice of whether or not to give birth, they also cannot really be held accountable for child abuse. With choice comes responsiblity. The big issue that makes me pro abortion is that it decreases child abuse and helps hold people responsible for child abuse.
Posted by Christina on January 12, 2001, at 14:16:09
In reply to Warning!Nothing in msg about dep. Topic may offend, posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 9:47:18
OK... add me to your list of people who just had to look at a seemingly offensive message line!
While, I do not agree that abortion should be outlawed, I do think that women (and men) have a moral responsibility to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
Posted by Rach on January 12, 2001, at 20:49:25
In reply to Re: Pro-choice » shar, posted by tdaneen on January 11, 2001, at 15:02:13
Thank you from my heart for sharing a beautiful memory with us.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2001, at 22:13:01
In reply to Re: Pro-choice » shar, posted by tdaneen on January 11, 2001, at 15:02:13
> she must have been as drugged up as I was, but she just saw how upset I was. She reached out her hand to me, and I held her hand as I cried.
> I had never known such a pure, selfless gesture. Someone who must have been in pain themselves, reaching to comfort someone else. It made an enormous impact on me.
It seems to me you all do that here every day. :-)
Bob
Posted by tdaneen on January 14, 2001, at 14:52:12
In reply to Re: Pro-choice » tdaneen, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2001, at 22:13:01
It seems strange, that such a painful memory is also such a precious one.
I had not thought of PB in the same way. Pain, easing pain... I guess in a way it is. The difference is here when we reach our hand it is with the wisdom and empathy that is gained from experience. When we reach out for those hands outstreched towards us it is with a sense of security. Sometimes, the only safety we might have known with these stigmatised illnesses we suffer from.Wow. I am humbled.
Thank YOU Dr. Bob. I believe that my progress (or stability) has been directly affected by having PB. I see my PDoc, and take my meds, and try and take the best care of myself and my daughter that I can, even with the stress of a divorce and now a custody battle ahead of me. I just had a little run in with a kidney stone (thanks to genetics, and topomax), but there are no "Groups" around here for me to participate in. PB has been more supportive than not. It has been more educational than not. I'm not sure how I even stumbled on this site now, but I'm glad I did.
Posted by Noa on January 15, 2001, at 12:21:27
In reply to Thank you Dr. Bob, posted by tdaneen on January 14, 2001, at 14:52:12
PB boards have been a big part of my recovery, too.
Posted by shar on January 16, 2001, at 11:03:06
In reply to Re: Pro-choice » shar, posted by tdaneen on January 11, 2001, at 15:02:13
T-
You are right---telling your story is a good way to acknowledge this woman. You are courageous to tell your story, and--with all the turmoil that was going on--to be able to take away and be touched by the gift of a stranger says much about who you are inside.Your heartfelt decision about reaching out yourself some day is her gift that you will pass along.
Shar
> Shar! I didn't know Elvis wrote a song about you !
> Just kidding. Long time no talk! Anyway I have a story it is true. It is a story about the tiny blessings we can still be given even when we make a choice that has dire concequences.
>
>
> I've waited a long time to share what happened to me.
> I've not spoken about it, but I have had one pregnancy terminated. My Catholic husband didn't want the baby, and I didn't want to lose my husband.
> I had a friend drive me to the clinic which was over three hours away.
> I was ok until I got on the table for the procedure. You see, I am an inscest survivor. I started having flashbacks, and they had to give me a "cocktail." The medication was too much for me, and I became very sick from it. I remember I was crying, and crying....
>
> afterwords they got me up and walked me to a recovery area that had reclining chairs in it. There were six or eight other women there. I was still crying and crying...next to me was this woman/girl...she must have been as drugged up as I was, but she just saw how upset I was. She reached out her hand to me, and I held her hand as I cried.
> I never knew her name, or really what she even looked like.
> I've never had many woman friends. In fact it was a male friend who drove me to the clinic that day. I had never known such a pure, selfless gesture. Someone who must have been in pain themselves, reaching to comfort someone else. It made an enormous impact on me. I will forever remember her, whoever she was, and will always wonder if she had any idea how much she comforted me that day.
> I made a promise to myself. If I ever saw another woman hurtin I would think of "her," and reach out. I've never been a "sisterhood" kind of gal, but I learned a valuable lesson.
> I've always wanted a way to thank her...I guess that just telling my story is a way.
>
>
> Thanks for listening.
Posted by LD on January 19, 2001, at 13:31:06
In reply to T--To honor a stranger, posted by shar on January 16, 2001, at 11:03:06
Thank you for bringing up this topic. I also am pro-choice, and have felt strongly about it my whole life. I too agree that there are so many unwanted, physically and emotional abused, neglected children in this world; that if you know you are not ready for the enormous responsibility of parenthood, that makes you more caring than the people who bring children into this world knowing they cannot provide for them.
Feeling so strongly about this topic was really put the test when I was faced with an unwanted pregnancy at the age of 26. But i'm old enough to have a baby, I have a good job, maybe I could do it? But in my heart of hearts, I knew I was not ready, not emotionally, not financially, I still didn't even know how to love myself; much less anybody else. Going through that toughest, most painful decision of my life, truely made me realize that having an abortion is an incredibly hard decision, and anybody that thinks women take the choice lightly does not even have a clue. (although there is the occasional aboration as birth control person).
Now 3 years later, I definitely know I made the best decision for me and the pregnancy. I still don't think i'm ready, and really don't know if I ever want kids. My life has changed so much in the past 3 years, and it would have never happened if I had the enormous responsiblity of taking care of a child. I have started therapy, I am learning to love myself, and learning to let other people love me. So if the day finally comes when I DECIDE I WANT a child, I will make sure I'm ready to give that child a loving safe home.
Thanks for letting me share.
Posted by Amy2001 on January 24, 2001, at 17:02:56
In reply to Thank you Dr. Bob, posted by tdaneen on January 14, 2001, at 14:52:12
I too am not sure how I found this site and I just did today... I am grateful I did find it. I was just telling my therapist last night how alone I feel, simply because there is no one around me who seems to understand.
This has so far been a great place not only to find others who seem to understand but also to read some very well thought out opinions. Thank you Rach for bringing up this topic. I must admit the "offensive" topic grabbed me.
Now more than ever with "W" in office, we need to keep this topic in the open. Never having had to face such a difficult decision I am still greatful to have the choice in the matter.Amy
> It seems strange, that such a painful memory is also such a precious one.
> I had not thought of PB in the same way. Pain, easing pain... I guess in a way it is. The difference is here when we reach our hand it is with the wisdom and empathy that is gained from experience. When we reach out for those hands outstreched towards us it is with a sense of security. Sometimes, the only safety we might have known with these stigmatised illnesses we suffer from.
>
> Wow. I am humbled.
>
> Thank YOU Dr. Bob. I believe that my progress (or stability) has been directly affected by having PB. I see my PDoc, and take my meds, and try and take the best care of myself and my daughter that I can, even with the stress of a divorce and now a custody battle ahead of me. I just had a little run in with a kidney stone (thanks to genetics, and topomax), but there are no "Groups" around here for me to participate in. PB has been more supportive than not. It has been more educational than not. I'm not sure how I even stumbled on this site now, but I'm glad I did.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 3, 2001, at 12:31:55
In reply to dennis, posted by Rach on January 7, 2001, at 21:03:57
I odn't know whether nayone will come back to read this - but hey ho!!
Rach - they've developed a new morning after pill with very little side affects. A friend told me about it when i was talking about the terrible side affects from the morning after pill!!
And dennis - they are handing it out like candy in the UK!! It is now available direct from a pharamcist (its expensive that way though), and also free from family planning clinics. Also, alot of schools are making itavaiable from the school nurse for free now!!!
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 3, 2001, at 12:39:12
In reply to Re: Thank you Dr. Bob, posted by Amy2001 on January 24, 2001, at 17:02:56
That was an amazing, moving story. Thankyou for telling us.
And thanks Dr Bob for reminding us what we are *really* here for, especially now when things are slightly unsettled here for some. (ooh, that sounds like something I'd hear in church!!)
Nikki x
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2001, at 1:13:53
In reply to Re: Thank you Dr. Bob - tdaneen, posted by NikkiT2 on February 3, 2001, at 12:39:12
> And thanks Dr Bob for reminding us what we are *really* here for, especially now when things are slightly unsettled here for some. (ooh, that sounds like something I'd hear in church!!)
Church, Psycho-Babble, different strokes for different folks. :-)
Bob
Posted by Cam W. on February 4, 2001, at 12:11:27
In reply to Re: You're welcome, posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2001, at 1:13:53
> > And thanks Dr Bob for reminding us what we are *really* here for, especially now when things are slightly unsettled here for some. (ooh, that sounds like something I'd hear in church!!)
>
> Church, Psycho-Babble, •different strokes for different folks•. :-)
>
> Bob•Whatever turns you on!• (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist; you set that up too well, Dr.B) - Cam
=^P
Posted by Rzip on February 4, 2001, at 16:00:28
In reply to Re: You're welcome, posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2001, at 1:13:53
Bob,
> Church, Psycho-Babble, different strokes for different folks. :-)
What are you implying? This seems an odd statement...can you please elaborate.- Rzip
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 5, 2001, at 0:27:04
In reply to Can you please elaborate... » Dr. Bob, posted by Rzip on February 4, 2001, at 16:00:28
> > Church, Psycho-Babble, different strokes for different folks. :-)
>
> What are you implying? This seems an odd statement...can you please elaborate.Maybe it was a little odd. I just meant that different people find support in different places.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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