![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Snowie on November 21, 2000, at 18:23:31
In reply to New Arrival Takes Offense, Stirs Contrition, Anger, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 17:23:49
Please don't go, Whiney. I think I love you.
Snowie
> Hello, everyone,
>
> I'm brand new to this board, and I'm highly offended that others have been discussing topics longer than I have and have formed opinions about issues and interactions, and developed on-line friendships that don't include me.
>
> Furthermore, I read a few postings out of context, and I'm deeply insulted and offended by the extreme rudeness of those who express their opinions about any issue to which I'm overly sensitive; however, if asked about it, I will not define my values or explain what I found offensive, because you already should know what I think is right and wrong.
>
> Although I've only been here eleven minutes, I think a new board should be created to insulate me from people who have a sense of humor. Such humor is inappropriate around those of us who experience REAL depression and other difficulties. But what would you care?
>
> I'm such a kind, caring, intelligent person while you all are members of cliques and don't really care about the feelings and sensiblities of others. I'm qualified to associate you by comparison with anyone I want to, but your attempts to psychoanalyze me are completely out of line. You hardly know me!
>
> I AM taking responsibility for my feelings, all of them, except when you offend me or degrade others or otherwise upset me, even when I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.
>
> Well, I don't see any reason why I should stay, since obviously no one here cares about anyone who hasn't already been a member of the inner circle for many months. This is disappointing, because I'm sure I had SO MUCH to offer.
>
> I won't tell you my real name, because my privacy is very important to me, and I would not want to have to be accountable for what I wrote. Good-bye forever! I hope you are very happy that you have torn down the hopes of a caring, intelligent person with your hurtful attacks and critical, cliqueish remarks!
>
> A. Whiney Newbie
Posted by Greg on November 21, 2000, at 18:24:23
In reply to Re: OK, I'll Stay!! Whiney, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 18:14:26
Thanks for putting a little perspective on things, at least for me. Kind of gets easy to lose focus after awhile, eh?
The knee is healing, albeit slowly. Still a bit swollen and tender, but this allows me to milk the family for additional sympathy :^). I think it's an old age thing, I just don't mend as fast as I used to in the olden days...
BTW, I'm really glad you decided to stay...
G
> Well, it seems like some of you are actually nice people, although I don't know how anyone would know that if they just came upon this board for the first time. I'm too lazy to spend a couple of days searching the archives, so I assume that whatever you say right now represents how this board has always been and will always be. That's fair, isn't it?
>
> Anyway, as long as everyone is ready to tip-toe around my feelings, I guess I'll stay and participate. Thanks to those of you who made me feel welcome here.
>
> A. Whiney Newbie
Posted by Cam W. on November 21, 2000, at 18:34:14
In reply to New Arrival Takes Offense, Stirs Contrition, Anger, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 17:23:49
A.Whiney - Fine, GO! But what about my feelings? Don't you care? How about all of us you are leaving behind? What's to become of us? That's gratitude for you!
8^) Cam
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 18:53:30
In reply to Re: New Arrival Takes Offense, Stirs Contrition, Anger, posted by Cam W. on November 21, 2000, at 18:34:14
Go or stay, it's YOUR choice! Just keep your hands off my whip!
Coral
Posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 18:57:49
In reply to Re: Whiney, posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 18:53:30
> Just keep your hands off my whip!
>
> CoralI invented the whip.
Whiney
Posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 18:58:45
In reply to New Arrival Takes Offense, Stirs Contrition, Anger, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 17:23:49
Funny or not, this strikes me as kind of mean.
I guess my feelings are that even if you dislike how someone conducted themselves, they are still a person with feelings. Coming on the heels of a recent thread of this nature, I am upset about this parody because one newcomer was expressing suicidal feelings and was in great distress, even though that was not clear because it got lost in her angry complaints.
I think humor is great, but not at someone else's expense.
Posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 19:11:00
In reply to Re: My Whip!, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 18:57:49
Cam W., SLS, JohnL, et al:
Since a precursor to serotonin is l-typtophan, which is found naturally in abundance in such foods as turkey, is it safe to say that those who tend towards serotonin-depletion depression may be somewhat energized by dinner this Thursday, while those with "normal" neurotransmitter levels will become sleepy? I realize this question probably belongs on the "meds" board.
Whiney
Posted by Cam W. on November 21, 2000, at 19:18:31
In reply to Re: Sorry to rain on your parade, but............., posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 18:58:45
Noa - Sorry, I did not realize this was about a real person (Hannah, I presume?). I never really did follow those threads. I was just trying to make funny, again. - Sincerely Cam
Posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 19:33:12
In reply to Re: Sorry to rain on your parade, but............., posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 18:58:45
Dear Noa,
I was thinking of a collage of individuals, most of whom are not even on this list. The "whiney newbie" shows up on lists devoted to photography, bicycling, cats, even growing bamboo! There's certainly nothing unique going on here at Psycho-Social-Babble when it comes to the quirks of group dynamics on electronic bulletin boards.
I haven't been following the most recent threads, so I actually don't know which story or person you're talking about. If my parody was close to fact at any point, it's because it plays out over and over again, month after month, with different actors.
However -- I should admit that I WAS thinking of YOU when I wrote the first reply and signed it "Ark." I thought it was pretty good parody.
You are the soul of goodness and tolerance, Noa, a person of infinite patience. I'm glad you're here.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 19:33:49
In reply to Re: Sorry to rain on your parade, but............. » Noa, posted by Cam W. on November 21, 2000, at 19:18:31
> Noa - Sorry, I did not realize this was about a real person (Hannah, I presume?). I never really did follow those threads. I was just trying to make funny, again. - Sincerely Cam
Posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 19:43:39
In reply to Re: Sorry to rain on your parade, but............. » Noa, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 19:33:12
> However -- I should admit that I WAS thinking of YOU when I wrote the first reply and signed it "Ark." I thought it was pretty good parody.
Yep, it was. I'll give you that, Mark.
And --(picture Homer S. slapping forehead)--- after the wheels have turned ever so slowly......I fiiiinnnnnaallllyyy geeeeetttttt tttttthhhhheeeee puuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnn----Noa-Ark. :0)
Thanks for your reply. It isn't so surprising that the same dynamics occur here as other places, BUT, the very essence of this place is for emotional support, so I think we just have try to be aware of that.And many of us who come here are quite sensitive, having struggled and suffered a lot in our lives.
In general, sarcasm is risky in this form of communication. All the more so with a group of people that has many who are here because we are prone to hurting.
I hate being so "preachy"! But I had to say something. Thanks for understanding.
Posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 19:57:08
In reply to New Arrival Takes Offense, Stirs Contrition, Anger, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 17:23:49
I think there is a fundamental lack of respect and understanding on this board for people who have had their senses of humor surgically removed. To the rest of you, it's just levity; to us, it's a painful reminder that everything should be taken personally and in the worst possible light. There's no joke, however innocent, that couldn't apply to someone. Therefore, jokes are a form of discrimination and oppression, a way for those with a sense of humor to put down those without. I feel I have to speak out about this important injustice!
In the words of our next president, well, read them for yourselves:
http://slate.msn.com/Features/bushisms/bushisms.asp
A. Whiney Newbie
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 20:19:17
In reply to Re: Very Very Serious!, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 19:57:08
> I think there is a fundamental lack of respect and understanding on this board for people who have had their senses of humor surgically removed. Just so there is no confusion, the aforementioned surgical procedure is NOT a lumpectomy.
Now, WHO has my whip?????
Coral
Posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 20:24:07
In reply to New Arrival Takes Offense, Stirs Contrition, Anger, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 17:23:49
> Hello, everyone,
>
> I'm brand new to this board, and I'm highly offended that others have been discussing topics longer than I have and have formed opinions about issues and interactions, and developed on-line friendships that don't include me. xxx
>
> Furthermore, I read a few postings out of context, and I'm deeply insulted and offended by the extreme rudeness of those who express their opinions about any issue to which I'm overly sensitive; however, if asked about it, I will not define my values or explain what I found offensive, because you already should know what I think is right and wrong.
>
> Although I've only been here eleven minutes, I think a new board should be created to insulate me from people who have a sense of humor. Such humor is inappropriate around those of us who experience REAL depression and other difficulties. But what would you care?
>
> I'm such a kind, caring, intelligent person while you all are members of cliques and don't really care about the feelings and sensiblities of others. I'm qualified to associate you by comparison with anyone I want to, but your attempts to psychoanalyze me are completely out of line. You hardly know me!
>
> I AM taking responsibility for my feelings, all of them, except when you offend me or degrade others or otherwise upset me, even when I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.
>
> Well, I don't see any reason why I should stay, since obviously no one here cares about anyone who hasn't already been a member of the inner circle for many months. This is disappointing, because I'm sure I had SO MUCH to offer.
>
> I won't tell you my real name, because my privacy is very important to me, and I would not want to have to be accountable for what I wrote. Good-bye forever! I hope you are very happy that you have torn down the hopes of a caring, intelligent person with your hurtful attacks and critical, cliqueish remarks!
>
> A. Whiney Newbie
Posted by shellie on November 21, 2000, at 20:29:46
In reply to Re: Whiney, Don't Go!, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 17:31:19
> with your angry snap judgments, vague defensive responses, and attention-getting outbursts!
>
please be civil.bob (oops, I mean shellie)
Posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 20:46:18
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by shellie on November 21, 2000, at 20:29:46
Having been there and done that myself at times, thank you for the parody! And, I've also seen the pattern occur on other boards as well as in certain group situations. You really nailed all the characters and how those things can play out! I enjoyed it thoroughly and I was laughing out loud.
SharP.S. Coral--while I believe you can talk about your whip here, any Lu-p reference belongs in the Lu-p thread above. I believe you get a demerit now.
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 20:55:40
In reply to Thank you, Mark H. and others, posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 20:46:18
How is it that I'm always the one to get in trouble?????? Wellllll....... okay.... demerit demerrier! :)
Posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 22:37:56
In reply to Re: Sorry to rain on your parade, but............., posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 19:43:39
Dear Noa,
I actually crossed messages with you earlier, so I didn't read your second post until after I had posted again.
You raise many good points, as always. There is an element here among the wounded (myself included) who respond to dark humor, and perhaps we experience a bit of resentment about certain types of unrestrained behavior because we suck it up all day long every day and avoid lashing out at those who may deserve it.
When we are among ourselves, it seems particularly uncivil for people to jump in who apparently lack even the most rudimentary basics of therapy, the kinds of things that are taught in the first few visits, who absolutely cannot consider the possibility that someone here might have a valid first impression or observation worth considering about the inappropriateness of their interactive behavior.
Paramount is owning one's own feelings -- those who haven't figured out that "offense is in the taking" haven't even begun their work. It's OK for them to be here, for all of us to offer one another support, but when they jump into the middle of a thread with righteous indignation, the choices are 1.) to ignore them; 2.) to educate them; or 3.) to ask them to start their own threads and butt out.
We need your level of compassion here, but we also need lots of people who don't put up with bad behavior. To me, it is not kind to coddle the level of self-indulgence that some people bring to this board. This may be the only place in their lives where they're challenged to take some accountability and responsibility for themselves. To some people at some times, "knock it off" is the most loving, compassionate thing you can say.
I don't want to name names, but you and I both have at times given up on some of the chronic self-sabotagers who beg for advice and then ignore it, who cry out for help and then disappear, who threaten violence and then never report back or maintain even the smallest amount of accountability when offered help.
It's not my place, of course, to suggest a set of "rules" for this list. The alternative is to use parody to highlight some of the attitudes that have caused unnecessary dissonance and strife on this and other boards.
I hope our differing viewpoints will continue to work together to offer a range of styles and ways of reaching people.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 22:44:56
In reply to Re: Debriefing with Noa, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 22:37:56
> Dear Noa,
>
> I actually crossed messages with you earlier, so I didn't read your second post until after I had posted again.
> xxx
> You raise many good points, as always. There is an element here among the wounded (myself included) who respond to dark humor, and perhaps we experience a bit of resentment about certain types of unrestrained behavior because we suck it up all day long every day and avoid lashing out at those who may deserve it.
>
> When we are among ourselves, it seems particularly uncivil for people to jump in who apparently lack even the most rudimentary basics of therapy, the kinds of things that are taught in the first few visits, who absolutely cannot consider the possibility that someone here might have a valid first impression or observation worth considering about the inappropriateness of their interactive behavior.
>
> Paramount is owning one's own feelings -- those who haven't figured out that "offense is in the taking" haven't even begun their work. It's OK for them to be here, for all of us to offer one another support, but when they jump into the middle of a thread with righteous indignation, the choices are 1.) to ignore them; 2.) to educate them; or 3.) to ask them to start their own threads and butt out.
>
> We need your level of compassion here, but we also need lots of people who don't put up with bad behavior. To me, it is not kind to coddle the level of self-indulgence that some people bring to this board. This may be the only place in their lives where they're challenged to take some accountability and responsibility for themselves. To some people at some times, "knock it off" is the most loving, compassionate thing you can say.
>
> I don't want to name names, but you and I both have at times given up on some of the chronic self-sabotagers who beg for advice and then ignore it, who cry out for help and then disappear, who threaten violence and then never report back or maintain even the smallest amount of accountability when offered help.
>
> It's not my place, of course, to suggest a set of "rules" for this list. The alternative is to use parody to highlight some of the attitudes that have caused unnecessary dissonance and strife on this and other boards.
>
> I hope our differing viewpoints will continue to work together to offer a range of styles and ways of reaching people.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 23:36:11
In reply to Re: Debriefing with Noa, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 22:37:56
!
> Dear Noa,
>
> I actually crossed messages with you earlier, so I didn't read your second post until after I had posted again.
>
> You raise many good points, as always. There is an element here among the wounded (myself included) who respond to dark humor, and perhaps we experience a bit of resentment about certain types of unrestrained behavior because we suck it up all day long every day and avoid lashing out at those who may deserve it.
>
> When we are among ourselves, it seems particularly uncivil for people to jump in who apparently lack even the most rudimentary basics of therapy, the kinds of things that are taught in the first few visits, who absolutely cannot consider the possibility that someone here might have a valid first impression or observation worth considering about the inappropriateness of their interactive behavior.
>
> Paramount is owning one's own feelings -- those who haven't figured out that "offense is in the taking" haven't even begun their work. It's OK for them to be here, for all of us to offer one another support, but when they jump into the middle of a thread with righteous indignation, the choices are 1.) to ignore them; 2.) to educate them; or 3.) to ask them to start their own threads and butt out.
>
> We need your level of compassion here, but we also need lots of people who don't put up with bad behavior. To me, it is not kind to coddle the level of self-indulgence that some people bring to this board. This may be the only place in their lives where they're challenged to take some accountability and responsibility for themselves. To some people at some times, "knock it off" is the most loving, compassionate thing you can say.
>
> I don't want to name names, but you and I both have at times given up on some of the chronic self-sabotagers who beg for advice and then ignore it, who cry out for help and then disappear, who threaten violence and then never report back or maintain even the smallest amount of accountability when offered help.
>
> It's not my place, of course, to suggest a set of "rules" for this list. The alternative is to use parody to highlight some of the attitudes that have caused unnecessary dissonance and strife on this and other boards.
>
> I hope our differing viewpoints will continue to work together to offer a range of styles and ways of reaching people.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2000, at 0:53:20
In reply to Re: Debriefing with Noa, posted by Mark H. on November 21, 2000, at 22:37:56
> There is an element here among the wounded ... who respond to dark humor, and perhaps we experience a bit of resentment about certain types of unrestrained behavior because we suck it up all day long every day and avoid lashing out at those who may deserve it.
Humor is fine, but not if it involves, or could be perceived to involve, making fun of others. In other words, please suck it up here, too. :-)
> We need ... compassion here, but we also need lots of people who don't put up with bad behavior. To me, it is not kind to coddle the level of self-indulgence that some people bring to this board. This may be the only place in their lives where they're challenged to take some accountability and responsibility for themselves. To some people at some times, "knock it off" is the most loving, compassionate thing you can say.
Again, please be careful not to put pressure on others.
I think it works out nicely if I deal with "bad behavior" ("maintain the therapeutic milieu") and the members of the group provide the support and education. It's a kind of division of labor.
Some people aren't open to support and education. They won't benefit from being here. I think we need to accept that this board can't be all things to all people.
Bob
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 8:10:15
In reply to Re: Debriefing, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2000, at 0:53:20
Is the point you are making to avoid dark humor?
Posted by Mark H. on November 22, 2000, at 10:42:19
In reply to Re: Debriefing, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2000, at 0:53:20
Dear Dr. Bob,
Fair enough, Dr. Bob. You may delete this thread now if you wish without concern. I've made my point.
The vast majority of participants are among the most skillful, experienced, interesting, multi-faceted, delightful, helpful, kind, funny, intuitive, and passionate people I've ever known. I would GLADLY list them name by name with the outstanding qualities and gifts they possess and offer so freely to others, but for fear that I would inadvertently forget someone I intended to include.
This board is a treasure-chest and life-saver, a rich source of information on treatment and coping strategies, and a wonderful place to share experiences and support.
I am grateful, as always, to you and to the regulars who devote uncounted hours every week providing services and friendship that money could not buy.
And I'll gladly comply with your request that I let you take care of behavioral issues. I actually appreciate a bit of corrective guidance from time to time and don't find it offensive at all.
Thank you for your gentle guidance in response to my parodic thread.
With respect,
Mark H.
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 13:37:44
In reply to Re: Fair Enough; End of Thread » Dr. Bob, posted by Mark H. on November 22, 2000, at 10:42:19
> The vast majority of participants are among the most skillful, experienced, interesting, multi-faceted, delightful, helpful, kind, funny, intuitive, and passionate people I've ever known.
And, Mark, I have gotten to know some such wonderful people here who started out as highly reactive and hostile at first. Or, who had such periods of hostility and reactivity when they were in a particularly bad place. I myself have said some uncivil things and have learned from mistakes I have made here. Some babblers have even been banned for a while and came back. But people are multifaceted and I don't like to write people off completely, even if I don't condone uncivil behavior on their part.
I also think it is important not to jump in and always react to uncivil or hostile posts--and definitely think responding in kind is not a good idea. I don't agree with you that this is a place to correct other people's attitudes or problems. It is a place for mutual support. That doesn't mean we cannot disagree or confront each other sometimes. But I don't feel responsible to somehow correct anyone's supposed pattern of self-indulgence. To assume that self-indulgence is the problem is a big assumption. There is a lot we don't know about each other here.
I feel that my job here as a participant is to maintain good boundaries around myself. And to speak honestly about my opinions and feelings if I can do so in a way that doesn't add undue hostility here.
Dr. Bob has advised, at times, the following (I am paraphrasing--Dr. Bob, plese feel free to correct if necessary): if you don't think you can say something without bumping up against the civility boundary and possibly crossing it, it is usually a good idea to withhold your thoughts, or wait and restate them in a more civil way.
Shar, I am a lover of dark humor. My taste in films and books shows that. But good judgment about context and meaning to others here is also important. Dark humor in the form of sarcasm does have its risks in this modality, and I have seen it cause problems before.
Mark, I agree that I have withdrawn from some who made repeated calls for help and presented in dangerous conditions only to withdraw from the offers of help and support and come back again and repeat it. But I don't think that parodying that person would be appropriate either. People who have done that might need help seeing the boundaries, but they are really suffering tremendously--I have no doubt of that--even if it seems the crisis passes and they forget about it. I don't think adding more hostility to the interaction helps at all. I do think it is ok to state where our own boundaries are and what we can deal with or not, and even to withdaw, as I did, from responding to some people who I do care about but cannot deal with some of the ways they apprach and leave and ask for help, and seem to ignore it, etc. But there are others on this board who can tolerate that and have something to offer these people that I might not. I think at some point, Dr. Bob sometimes comes in and sets a boundary for the board, but sometimes a person can participate here within the boundaries of the board, but each of us needs to be aware of our own boundary needs.
Geez, I have no idea if this makes sense, I feel I have rambled on and overused the word boundary....
This dialogue is important. Dialogue is good. We don't always have to agree. I appreciate your considering other perspectives.
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 15:42:37
In reply to Re: Fair Enough; End of Thread, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 13:37:44
> Shar, I am a lover of dark humor...But good judgment about context and meaning to others here is also important. Dark humor in the form of sarcasm does have its risks in this modality...Noa,
actually, any form of humor in this modality has its risks, as we've seen time and again someone react to something written in all innocence to be humorous, but it pushes someones buttons.Having been the target, recently, of sarcastic "humor" I can agree it is unpleasant--especially when someone goes to the trouble of making it intentionally personal. I suppose I see a place for humor here, and not everyone does. I don't see many people rushing to offer support to the attackee, but instead--and under only certain circumstances--focusing on the attacker who must be in pain. It appears that who is doing the sarcasm makes a big difference, too, in the way people react.
So, really, when considering the breadth and depth of humor witnessed in the time I've been here, there is really no consistency. Sometimes an "attack" is ok, sometimes not, sometimes an attacker is seen as a poor victim who can't express their pain clearly, and the person being attacked is largely ignored or attacked yet again for responding to the attacker.
And, all this whole rigamarole started, in my opinion, because some people were having some innocent fantasy fun, hurting nobody, attacking nobody (except in one instance I can recall, when an attack was launched at a well-meant joke and people responded), but evidently displeasing a vocal minority who felt that the fun should be moved elsewhere, and lashed out at those who disagreed.
I saw a clear goal put forth, a lot of nastiness when L posts were not immediately banished, some celebrating when L posts were restricted to one thread, and the preservation of what I consider to be a questionably supportive milieu.
Well, I think the vocal minority won. As you can tell, posts of fun (as in Lumptonia--and I give myself a demerit for mentioning that name here) have diminished significantly. Restrictions have been placed on where posts can be put, so that others will apparently feel more comfortable posting on important issues. ?? And, if unsupported suppositions are correct, we should see an influx of new posters who stayed away due to the L posts.
This is supportive? Educational? Or a good example of competitive manipulation often found in group dynamics when splintering occurs?
Shar
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