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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by pullmarine on October 27, 2000, at 2:10:51
In reply to Ted's theory of heritability (long), posted by Ted on October 25, 2000, at 20:48:59
Hey ted. for my own interest, I'd like to know the sources for the following:
>
Source? Studies have been done where laboratory rats are shocked whenever they approach a food dish. (not serious shocks, just mild). After a period of time, the rat shows signs of depression: avoidance, isolation, etc. even when the shock is removed AND the rat knows the shock is removed. Biochemical analyses show that the levels of serotonin & norepinepherine are decreased in the rat's brain. This experiment shows how a situational affect will have a biochemical effect.
>
> I believe this happens in humans as well: it is only a matter of time. PEOPLE are susceptible to permanent changes which may or may not fix themselves and we can use medication to change the chemical balance in our brains.
>
> Remember, other than the rat studies, this is only Ted's theory and is not necessarily fact (but I think it sounds good). :-)I agree with you ted!!!
>
But there is plenty more of this type of data.> Ted
Posted by pullmarine on October 27, 2000, at 2:33:17
In reply to Ted's theory of heritability (long), posted by Ted on October 25, 2000, at 20:48:59
>Source please!!! Studies have been done where laboratory rats are shocked whenever they approach a food dish. (not serious shocks, just mild). After a period of time, the rat shows signs of depression: avoidance, isolation, etc. even when the shock is removed AND the rat knows the shock is removed. Biochemical analyses show that the levels of serotonin & norepinepherine are decreased in the rat's brain. This experiment shows how a situational affect will have a biochemical effect.> Ted's theory:
>
> Genetics provides a possible, partial, predisposition to depression and bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses (god I hate that word). However, a situational trigger is needed as a cause. the response to the stressor is expressed more in some people than in others(due to many factors).These responses have a wide range in terms of length and severity. In some people, an incident will cause situational depression to occur, but recovery may come fairly rapidly (hours, days, weeks) and they are able to go on with their lives. For others, the individual ends up in a downward spiral of depression, fed by memories and feelings of guilt, humiliation, shame, etc, (possibly due to learned cognitive patters). Depending on the severity & duration, the individual may recover only to have another situational trigger. Eventually, with enough duration, the patterns may become set and difficult to change.
> >
> I believe this happens in humans as well: it is only a matter of time, and number of stressor (there's plenty of data to support this view). some don't have this problem because their depressions are short-lived, or they've had few stressfull life events. others are susceptible to long term or permanent changes which may or may not fix themselves, and can use medication to alter the chemical balance in our brains.
>
> Remember, other than the rat studies, this is only Ted's (now Ted and John's theory) theory and is not necessarily fact (but I think it sounds good). :-) IT DOES!!! and there's a huge amount of research that supports what you wrote.
>
>JOHN
Posted by Ted on October 27, 2000, at 11:25:57
In reply to stealing Ted's theory !!! , posted by pullmarine on October 27, 2000, at 2:33:17
Hey John,
I will look up the rat studies. It will take a while beacuse I never kep track of all of the sources of info. I think it was also covered on a science program on TV a few years back as well, perhaps Scientific American Frontiers, maybe something else.
I like your refinements. Maybe we should really "professionalize" it and submit it for publication. :-) After all, we have LIVED IT!
Ted
Posted by Ted on October 27, 2000, at 23:18:12
In reply to Re: LONG answer!!!, posted by pullmarine on October 27, 2000, at 2:04:38
>i also recommend a short funny book called
>'how to lie with statistics'"lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote by Mark Twain
Posted by pullmarine on October 28, 2000, at 12:49:02
In reply to statistics » pullmarine, posted by Ted on October 27, 2000, at 23:18:12
'I have never wanted any released friend of mine restored to life since i reached manhood.'
Mark Twain
From an essay on the death of his daughter Jean
'The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation'
h d thoreau
Posted by shar on October 28, 2000, at 21:18:37
In reply to statistics » pullmarine, posted by Ted on October 27, 2000, at 23:18:12
As a statistician, one of my favorites is:
"Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything."
Gregg Easterbrook-Shar
> >i also recommend a short funny book called
> >'how to lie with statistics'
>
> "lies, damn lies, and statistics" quote by Mark Twain
Posted by shar on October 28, 2000, at 21:42:03
In reply to Re: LONG answer!!!, posted by pullmarine on October 27, 2000, at 2:04:38
> I have read that heritability is the proportion of variation of a trait that can be attributed to genetic factors as opposed to environmental ones. Can anyone give me a good idea of what that really means?
BTW, just kidding with the title of this post.
In statistics, people are always looking at variance (differences) and trying to explain what proportion may be due to factor a, factor b, or just random fluctuation in the data.
If there was no variance then everything would be the same for everyone, and the question would be answered. But, since there is always random fluctuation (caused by human error, the weather, if the respondent had a headache) one has to account (or try to) for proportions of variance due to the different sources.
So, the researchers said that the proportion of variance due to familial factors was modest in men and significant in women. (My simple interpretation.) They don't say there was a statistically significant proportion due to familial factors, which is pretty important in most social science research. Significant would mean that whatever percentages they found were not just due to chance, or random fluctuation in the data, but really due to the familial factor.
The best I could say would be it is probably significantly familial in women (but did the authors say that?). However, that is not the same as predicting the probability of a child having depression if one or more parent is depressed. All I would be willing to say from what I read in your post is that if you have a depressed female, you are significantly more likely to find that one or both of her parents experienced depression.
I am a cautious statistician. Pullmarine made some good comments on caveats as well. But since we didn't read the article (or at least I didn't) it's an educated guess.
Shar
>
> >In very general terms, the explanation for the first question is as follows (it might be easier to understand with a prinout):
>
> Genes may very well predispose certain characteristics (ie. genotype. is the gene there?for instance the genes for dark skin), but the characteristic may or may not come into existance unless certain environmental cues are present (phenotype. can you see the gene in action. is the skin dark? a person may be genotypically black, but phenotypically white).
>
> For many genes, environmental cues will trigger the genes into action (ie' taning, or some animals growing white fur instead of brown during winter due to changes in temperature).
>
> The observable in traits is called phenotype.
> Often, genes allow a limited range of possible oucomes that are expressed due to environmental factors.
>
> In other words, genes are the constraints within which different outcomes are possible depending on other factors (ie, environmental). a good analogy would be climatic conditions (don't try growing equatorial plants at the north pole, or don't expect snow at the equator)
>
> thus, heritability (the genetic constraints and range of possibilities that we get from our parents)is the proportion of difference in a trait (for instance, skin color) that can be attributed to genetic factors (how closely does the skin color of the offspring match that of the parents?)as opposed to environmental ones (how much of the variation is caused by sun exposure?). You can find that the genes responsible for skin color (there are eight of them if I remember correctly) are inherited. The proportion of variation in skin color is defined largely by these genes, but that sun exposure is a contributing environmental factor. A white person can tan but will not become black regardless of sun exposure, and vice a versa. Thus, skin color is very much an inherited trait Related to the family, not the environment).
>
> With depression, you will find that life circumstances (ie, environmental factors) will play a significant role in causing depression, and that genes may/or may not be partially responsible. It is very hard to assess whether depression is a natural response to life events, or possibly a learned behavior, or whether it's genetic.
>
> I would assume that the converse would then be true; in females genetic factors play a larger role.
>
> >No. because environmental factor do not affect men and women in the same ways. overall, women are taught to be caring, self- sacrificing, and face many hardships and responsibilities that most men don't face. Furthermore, women are usually more verbal about their feeling, thereby accounting for the higher numbers.
>
> > Does this also mean that the daughters of a depressed person are more likely to inherit a tendency towards depression than are the sons?
>
> No. It can be interpreted as an indication that women are more prone to depression than men. But it may very well be a confounding factor (statistical term), meaning that the rates are higher for women because they are better at reporting their feelings than men are, or that they are under more stress.
>
>
> >Does anyone know if there are statistics that say (for example), “If a person has one parent who has experienced depression, he/she has an X% chance of experiencing depression him/herself and if both parents have been depressed, then he/she has a Y% chance of experiencing depression”?
>
> >
> I've read that if one parent is manic-depressive, the chances are 25% for off-springs
> and that if both parents are, the chances increase to 75%, (indicating a dominant gene, see mendel or mendelism or mendelian genetics). But I truly doubt the accuracy of these numbers. source of percentages: touched by fire. k r jamison
>
>
> When you look at statistical data, these some of the questions to ask:
>
> Was the sample representative?
> was the study double blind?
> were the surveys misleading in anyway?
> Margin of Error.
> How were the surveys given, by whom and under what conditions.
> Were there any confounding factors?
> What are the mean and standard deviations?
> Results for the Null Hypothesis?
> Who is doing or funding the research and to what purpose?
>
>
> JOHN
>
>
> PS, check out the rand study on texas's alleged education progress under bush, i also recommend a short funny book called 'how to lie with statistics'
Posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 2:35:33
In reply to Re: statistics one more time, posted by shar on October 28, 2000, at 21:18:37
1."there are no great deeds. There are only small deeds with great love"
Mother theresa
---------2. "When I was young, they said:"wait untill you're older, you'll see. I am older. I have seen nothing. and i mean, nothing."
source: Erik Satie
-------------------
3. "Caress a circle, and she will become vicious"
Eugene IOnesco: La cantatrice Chauve
--------------
"sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
Freud, when asked how he explained his smoking in light of his theories.
Of couse, years later, Bill clinton went on to prove that a cigar is never just a cigar------------
"lady I like my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth occasionally"
Groucho Mark upon meeting a woman who had ten kids.
----------
john> "Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything."
> Gregg Easterbrook
>
> -Shar
>
Posted by Ted on October 29, 2000, at 11:53:13
In reply to Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 2:35:33
"Good, fast, cheap -- choose any two"
-- Robert Craven, my old manager, referring to software product development."Credo qvia absvrdvm est"
("I believe it because it is absurd")
-- Tertullian, a Carthaginian who embraced Catholocism because he felt anything as absurd as Christianity must be true."When all is said and done, there is more said than done"
-- Roy Rogers"The wise man is the fool among the fools"
-- (I don't know; learned in 8th grade)"Question your assumptions"
-- Ric Hulett (a former colleague)"Anything is possible, given enough time and money"
-- me, especially when answering a bone-headed manager who asks "Can you ... ?".
Posted by allisonm on October 29, 2000, at 14:54:36
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by Ted on October 29, 2000, at 11:53:13
In nature, there are neither rewards
nor punishments;
there are Consequences.
-R.G. IngersollTo punish ourselves for others' faults is superlative folly.
-Mary Baker EddyNothing is either right or wrong, but thinking makes it so.
-Shakespeare
Posted by coral on October 29, 2000, at 14:58:07
In reply to Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by allisonm on October 29, 2000, at 14:54:36
"After all, tomorrow is another day!" Scarlett O'Hara
Posted by Lexie on October 29, 2000, at 15:02:19
In reply to Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by allisonm on October 29, 2000, at 14:54:36
Mary Tyler Moore in her recent book:
I try to let these words inspire me:
"Had I not been forced to confront myself I might never have come to know and admire the person I am.
Posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 15:55:32
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by Lexie on October 29, 2000, at 15:02:19
"of course cocaine is not adictive, darling. I should know, I've been doing it for years."
Talulah Bankhead
-------------
"without deviance from normality, there can be no progress."
Frank Zappa
----------
JOHN
Posted by Angela5 on October 29, 2000, at 17:28:57
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 15:55:32
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. -Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)
--------------------------
"The thinking of a genius does not proceed logically. It leaps with great ellipses. It pulls knowledge from God knows where."- Dorothy Thompson
---------------------------
That if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavours to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with success unexpected in common hours.
(I don't remember who this is by.)
-----------------------------
Any truth is better than make-believe.
(I don't remember who this is by.)
-----------------------------
"God does not play dice with the universe."
- A. Einstein
---------------------------
Integrity can be neither lost nor concealed nor faked nor quenched nor
artificially come by nor outlived, nor, I believe, in the long run denied.-Eudora Welty
-------------------------
Empty your mind of all thoughts.
Let your heart be at peace...
Each separate being in the universe
returns to the common source.
Returning to the source is serenity...
When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant, disinterested,
amused, kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king...
you can deal with whatever life brings you,
and when death comes, you are ready.-Lao-tzu, The Book of The Way, 500 B.C., translated by Stephen Mitchell
-------------------------------
Always dream and shoot higher than you know you can do. Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.
- William Faulkner--------------------------------
and a funny one...
Normal is nothing more than a cycle on a washing machine.
- Whoopi Goldberg------------------------
Angela
Posted by pullmarine on October 31, 2000, at 23:22:35
In reply to Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 2:35:33
Beauty affects even those who are unaware of it.
J. cocteau. Les enfants terribles
------A poet dies many times before being born.
J. cocteau. Orpheus
-----
>1."there are no great deeds. There are only small deeds with great love"
>
> Mother theresa
> ---------
>
> 2. "When I was young, they said:"wait untill you're older, you'll see. I am older. I have seen nothing. and i mean, nothing."
>
> source: Erik Satie
>
> -------------------
>
> 3. "Caress a circle, and she will become vicious"
>
> Eugene IOnesco: La cantatrice Chauve
>
> --------------
> "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
> Freud, when asked how he explained his smoking in light of his theories.
> Of couse, years later, Bill clinton went on to prove that a cigar is never just a cigar
>
> ------------
>
> "lady I like my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth occasionally"
>
> Groucho Mark upon meeting a woman who had ten kids.
>
> ----------
>
>
>
>
> john
>
>
>
> > "Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything."
>
> > Gregg Easterbrook
> >
> > -Shar
> >
Posted by Cass on November 1, 2000, at 0:13:19
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by pullmarine on October 31, 2000, at 23:22:35
"Honor is more important than life."
Posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 1:00:58
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by pullmarine on October 31, 2000, at 23:22:35
We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees.
Jason KiddI love the smell of Napalm in the morning.
Apocalypse NowYou fall out of your mother's womb, you crawl across open country under fire, and drop into your grave. Quentin Crisp
I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it. Ashleigh Brilliant
I am but mad north-northwest; when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw. Hamlet, II ii
She was a handsome woman of forty-five and would remain so for many years. Anita Brookner
Posted by B Day on November 1, 2000, at 9:18:55
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by shar on November 1, 2000, at 1:00:58
"I used to have a life. Now I have a Mac and a modem."
Posted by Greg on November 1, 2000, at 14:08:50
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by B Day on November 1, 2000, at 9:18:55
"Life goes on with you, without you or in spite of you"
Posted by Cam W. on November 1, 2000, at 19:45:56
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by Greg on November 1, 2000, at 14:08:50
"I want to be what I was when I wanted to be what I am today."
Posted by R.Anne on November 1, 2000, at 21:45:30
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by pullmarine on October 31, 2000, at 23:22:35
> Beauty affects even those who are unaware of it.
>
> J. cocteau. Les enfants terribles
> ------
>
> A poet dies many times before being born.
>
> J. cocteau. Orpheus
>
> -----
> >
>
> 1."there are no great deeds. There are only small deeds with great love"
> >
> > Mother theresa
> > ---------
> >
> > 2. "When I was young, they said:"wait untill you're older, you'll see. I am older. I have seen nothing. and i mean, nothing."
> >
> > source: Erik Satie
> >
> > -------------------
> >
> > 3. "Caress a circle, and she will become vicious"
> >
> > Eugene IOnesco: La cantatrice Chauve
> >
> > --------------
> > "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
> > Freud, when asked how he explained his smoking in light of his theories.
> > Of couse, years later, Bill clinton went on to prove that a cigar is never just a cigar
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > "lady I like my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth occasionally"
> >
> > Groucho Mark upon meeting a woman who had ten kids.
> >
> > ----------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > john
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Torture numbers and they'll confess to anything."
> >
> > > Gregg Easterbrook
> > >
> > > -Shar
> > >
***********************
"Analysis is not the only way to resolve inner conflicts. Life remains a very effective therapist." -Karen Horney"I do not seek to follow in the footsteps of men and women of old; I seek the things they sought." -Basha
"Know yourself. Be yourself." -Carl Rogers
"The incorporation of death into life enhances life; it enables individuals to extricate themselves from trivialities to live more purposely and authentically." -Irvin Yolam
"A neurotic is one who refuses the loan of life to avoid the debt of death." -Otto Rank
"With the generation of life from the inorganic, it is humanity that was intended. With humanity a great experiment was initiated, the failure of which would be the failure of creation. Whether this is so or not, it would be well for humanity to behave as if it were." -Thomas Mann
--r.anne
********************
Posted by shar on November 2, 2000, at 0:03:07
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by Cam W. on November 1, 2000, at 19:45:56
I have suffered from being misunderstood, but I would have suffered more had I been understood.
Clarence Darrow
Posted by Lisa Simpson on November 2, 2000, at 5:01:00
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by shar on November 2, 2000, at 0:03:07
Groucho Marx:
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others.
Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife.
Either he's dead or my watch has stopped.
I have had a perfectly wonderful evening - but this wasn't it.
Room Service? Send up a larger room.
I must confess, I was born at a very early age.
I never forget a face - but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
Remember men, we're fighting for this woman's honor; which is probably more than she ever did.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.
And my personal favourite:
"Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana".
Posted by noa on November 2, 2000, at 16:46:56
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours!, posted by Lisa Simpson on November 2, 2000, at 5:01:00
Everyone's quotes have been great to read, but the Groucho ones also made me laugh.
Let me add this one that I saw on an embroidered pillow somewhere:
If it's not one thing, it's your mother.
Posted by quilter on November 3, 2000, at 0:20:38
In reply to Re: Favorite quotations. please add yours! » Lisa Simpson, posted by noa on November 2, 2000, at 16:46:56
How about "It could be worse, Martha Stewart could be your Mother-in-law." On a plaque (pillow?)
or "Pessimists build dungeons in the air."
My daughter and I have been collecting these lately, but my mind is blank...maybe its bedtime.
Quilter
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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