![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by shar on October 27, 2000, at 12:50:35
In reply to Re: Poems--Could you, would you, designate?, posted by pullmarine on October 27, 2000, at 7:10:42
Pull,
I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
Shar
> I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> or maybe not.
>
> JOHN
>
> > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> >
> > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Shar
Posted by shar on October 27, 2000, at 12:59:42
In reply to Re: Oh, no! Double post. My fault. What's punishment? » shar, posted by Greg on October 27, 2000, at 11:31:27
Greg,
I've already suffered through that and more what with the "World" Series being on. I heard it was finally over and some team beat some other team.
Shar> Shar,
>
> Your punishment is no X-Files for two weeks.
>
> Greg
>
> > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > >
> > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Shar
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 28, 2000, at 22:42:27
In reply to Re: Poems--Could you, would you, designate? » pullmarine, posted by shar on October 27, 2000, at 12:50:35
Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).Dasypodidae
> Pull,
>
> I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
>
> Shar
>
>
>
> > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > or maybe not.
> >
> > JOHN
> >
> > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > >
> > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Shar
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:00:15
In reply to Is this a tribe?? » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on October 28, 2000, at 22:42:27
(borrowed from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm)
INVOCATION
We are from the Halluca Nation
We are the tribe that they can not see
We live on an industrial reservationWe are the Halluca Nation
We have been called the Indian
We have been called Native AmericanWe have been called Hostile
We have been called Pagan
We have been called Militant
We have been called everything but who we areWe are the Halluca Nation
The human beings
They can not see us, but we can see themWe are the Halluca Nation
Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
Our D.N.A. is of the past and the futureWe are the Halluca Nation
We are the evolution
The continuationWe are the Halluca Nation
John Trudell
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 1:00:02
In reply to Is this a tribe?? » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on October 28, 2000, at 22:42:27
I grew up as an Air Force brat. One time in my counseling group I said my life felt nomadic; which would be ok, if your tribe was ok (because you always moved with your tribe). My tribe was abusive.
This (PB/PSB) is like a tribe to me.
I hadn't really verbalized the notion of tribe here until Pullmarine talked about liking to trick us, and I thought every tribe has its trickster. And it does.
How soon did it seem that way? .....I felt close to some people after being here 2-3 months.
Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? .....Not really to the first question, yes to the second if I don't know the poster(s).
Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? .....I really don't know.
I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
Sympathy: I'm very sorry to hear you are sick. I hope you feel better soon, because it's just awful to be sick.Shar
>
>
>
> Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
>
> Dasypodidae
>
> > Pull,
> >
> > I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
> >
> > Shar
> >
> >
> >
> > > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > > or maybe not.
> > >
> > > JOHN
> > >
> > > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > > >
> > > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Shar
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 1:01:19
In reply to Tribal matters, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:08:00
> INVOCATION
>
> We are from the Halluca Nation
> We are the tribe that they can not see.
> We live on an industrial reservation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We have been called the Indian
> We have been called Native American
>
> We have been called Hostile
> We have been called Pagan
> We have been called Militant
> We have been called everything but who we are
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> The human beings
> They can not see us, but we can see them
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We are the evolution
> The continuation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
>
>
> John Trudell
>
> http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
>
> poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 1:29:54
In reply to Is this a tribe?? » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on October 28, 2000, at 22:42:27
> I THINK OF IT AS A POTENTIAL BIG BROTHER IN THE MOST ORWELLIAN SENSE OF THE WORD.
>
>
> Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
>
> Dasypodidae
>
> > Pull,
> >
> > I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
> >
> > Shar
> >
> >
> >
> > > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > > or maybe not.
> > >
> > > JOHN
> > >
> > > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > > >
> > > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Shar
Posted by coral on October 29, 2000, at 3:10:20
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe??, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 1:29:54
In suspicious moments, I, too, see the Orwell reference - The "infamous" Dr. Bob sitting back, observing all the tortured souls -- this one's on Prozac, this one's on Lith, this one's anti-med --- wondering what we'll do next.
The majority of the time, I see it as a tribe in the sense that we all share some form of not being "CNP's" and appreciate the "famous" Dr. Bob for providing the forum for sharing, growth, support and healing.
In the bleakest moments, I'm just so glad it's here that I don't bother thinking about "why" it is here.On a personal note, being at peace with my personal tribe was something of supreme importance to me. However, I've had to give that up. My sister is BPD and there is NO evidence she's making any efforts to get better, and holding my boundaries is the only means to detente and personal peace.
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 9:52:58
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe??, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 1:29:54
Hmmm...a dysfunctional dystopia??? A sort of social/personal revisionism? Stop blaming society and blame our biochemistry? Learn to love our meds and our labels ? An occasional two minute hate against the dissenters to unify the group? Surely that's not what you mean-maybe my medication needs to be reevaluated. Please clarify. It's not enough to obey Big Brother....you must learn to love Big Brother.
> > I THINK OF IT AS A POTENTIAL BIG BROTHER IN THE MOST ORWELLIAN SENSE OF THE WORD.
> >
> >
> > Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> >
> > Dasypodidae
> >
> > > Pull,
> > >
> > > I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
> > >
> > > Shar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > > > or maybe not.
> > > >
> > > > JOHN
> > > >
> > > > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Shar
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 10:04:24
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? » pullmarine, posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 9:52:58
Gee, see how jaded yet naive one can be. I never think of Dr. Bob when I'm posting. I never even thought he read all the posts. But he must read some because he does pop in now and then.
It doesn't feel 1984 to me, because the only thing I have to do to post here is be civil, and I'm a big fan of civility. The disclaimer up top says that what you say could conceivably be used against you, and that is also true of all the A groups (AA, NA, etc.). The A groups are not protected communication, and posting on this board is public, and so not protected. In fact, anyone on this board has access to all the posts.
Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc. And, worst case scenario, what would he hold against us that every reader here couldn't do the same?
S
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 10:19:39
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe??, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 1:00:02
Thanks for replying. I wonder if having a transient childhood makes most people form bonds more quickly. It seems like it might sometimes have the opposite effect. The idea that you see PB as a tribe is probably a big comfort to you. I don't mean that to be as condescending as it sounds. But isn't the tribe just your personal tribe and not all of PB? A tribe you can choose is less a tribe than a circle of "friends" which might overlap with other peoples' circles but is just your creation. A tribe would exist outside of the individual and not depend on the individual's choice. Or do you consider everyone that posts (or reads) PB one of the tribe whether you choose them or not?Does every tribe have its trickster? Or are there whole tribes of tricksters too? And who defines the roles? It seems like everything on the board (at least the majority ) is submitted by people who are not who they say. Besides the pseudonyms they post under, doesn't just writing move it into the realm of artifice if not fiction. I know the same thing happens in f2f communications but not to this extent I would think. And isn't fiction often closer to the truth than a selective recitation of the facts? And isn't labeling something fiction sometimes just a way to achieve maximum deniability while telling a truth?
The world is a strange place for naive and trusting people.
Thanks for the sympathy. I feel better this morning.
Dasypodidae
> I grew up as an Air Force brat. One time in my counseling group I said my life felt nomadic; which would be ok, if your tribe was ok (because you always moved with your tribe). My tribe was abusive.
>
> This (PB/PSB) is like a tribe to me.
>
> I hadn't really verbalized the notion of tribe here until Pullmarine talked about liking to trick us, and I thought every tribe has its trickster. And it does.
>
> How soon did it seem that way? .....I felt close to some people after being here 2-3 months.
>
> Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? .....Not really to the first question, yes to the second if I don't know the poster(s).
>
> Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? .....I really don't know.
>
> I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> Sympathy: I'm very sorry to hear you are sick. I hope you feel better soon, because it's just awful to be sick.
>
> Shar
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> >
> > Dasypodidae
> >
> > > Pull,
> > >
> > > I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
> > >
> > > Shar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > > > or maybe not.
> > > >
> > > > JOHN
> > > >
> > > > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Shar
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 11:00:21
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 10:04:24
I'm confused. Are you calling Dr Bob, Shaman Bob?
Why?
I'm not talking about surveillance, I'm talking about Newspeak and the Thought Police. I'm talking about the Therapeutic Culture in general. And I do think there are parallels here! I was thinking of redefining all pain and social injustice in terms of mental illness within the individual. Of a kind of spiritual revisionism where despair and longing are only chemistry. Where the outrage at social injustice is labeled mental illness, etc. etc.I really really don't think Dr Bob is peeping at me through his little picture square!
What has AA got to do with anything? I don't even LIKE Bill W. It takes what it takes but that's just not what it takes for me ;o)
Dr Bob is not MY shaman. How can he be yours if you never even think about him? That's something to think about.
I didn't mean to offend you. I thought it was an interesting way to think of PB and I wondered what you meant.
Sorry if I upset you. I didn't mean to. I haven't read 1984 in years. Maybe we remember it differently. Best wishes
Dasypodidae
Gee, see how jaded yet naive one can be. I never think of Dr. Bob when I'm posting. I never even thought he read all the posts. But he must read some because he does pop in now and then.
>
> It doesn't feel 1984 to me, because the only thing I have to do to post here is be civil, and I'm a big fan of civility. The disclaimer up top says that what you say could conceivably be used against you, and that is also true of all the A groups (AA, NA, etc.). The A groups are not protected communication, and posting on this board is public, and so not protected. In fact, anyone on this board has access to all the posts.
>
> Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc. And, worst case scenario, what would he hold against us that every reader here couldn't do the same?
>
> S
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 11:14:09
In reply to Tribal matters, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:00:15
> (borrowed from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm)
>
> INVOCATION
>
> We are from the Halluca Nation
> We are the tribe that they can not see
> We live on an industrial reservation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We have been called the Indian
> We have been called Native American
>
> We have been called Hostile
> We have been called Pagan
> We have been called Militant
> We have been called everything but who we are
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> The human beings
> They can not see us, but we can see them
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We are the evolution
> The continuation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
>
>
> John Trudell
>
> http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
>
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 12:35:54
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 10:19:39
Wow, that is way more analysis of "tribe" than I am interested in. PB/PSB feels like a tribe, my tribe.
I can say that my growing up made me a survivor: extremely adaptable, and able to make acquaintances pretty quickly, and get along with others, but...I don't easily open my heart anymore. It was bruised too many times before I even understood what was happening.
I get very attached to my family (whether it be friends or blood relatives), my sister lives across the street, my mom across town. I finally have roots.
I'm glad you feel better today.
Shar
>
> Thanks for replying. I wonder if having a transient childhood makes most people form bonds more quickly. It seems like it might sometimes have the opposite effect. The idea that you see PB as a tribe is probably a big comfort to you. I don't mean that to be as condescending as it sounds. But isn't the tribe just your personal tribe and not all of PB? A tribe you can choose is less a tribe than a circle of "friends" which might overlap with other peoples' circles but is just your creation. A tribe would exist outside of the individual and not depend on the individual's choice. Or do you consider everyone that posts (or reads) PB one of the tribe whether you choose them or not?
>
> Does every tribe have its trickster? Or are there whole tribes of tricksters too? And who defines the roles? It seems like everything on the board (at least the majority ) is submitted by people who are not who they say. Besides the pseudonyms they post under, doesn't just writing move it into the realm of artifice if not fiction. I know the same thing happens in f2f communications but not to this extent I would think. And isn't fiction often closer to the truth than a selective recitation of the facts? And isn't labeling something fiction sometimes just a way to achieve maximum deniability while telling a truth?
>
> The world is a strange place for naive and trusting people.
>
> Thanks for the sympathy. I feel better this morning.
>
> Dasypodidae
>
> > I grew up as an Air Force brat. One time in my counseling group I said my life felt nomadic; which would be ok, if your tribe was ok (because you always moved with your tribe). My tribe was abusive.
> >
> > This (PB/PSB) is like a tribe to me.
> >
> > I hadn't really verbalized the notion of tribe here until Pullmarine talked about liking to trick us, and I thought every tribe has its trickster. And it does.
> >
> > How soon did it seem that way? .....I felt close to some people after being here 2-3 months.
> >
> > Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? .....Not really to the first question, yes to the second if I don't know the poster(s).
> >
> > Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? .....I really don't know.
> >
> > I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> > Sympathy: I'm very sorry to hear you are sick. I hope you feel better soon, because it's just awful to be sick.
> >
> > Shar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> > >
> > > Dasypodidae
> > >
> > > > Pull,
> > > >
> > > > I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
> > > >
> > > > Shar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > > > > or maybe not.
> > > > >
> > > > > JOHN
> > > > >
> > > > > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Shar
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 12:41:47
In reply to Tribal matters, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:08:00
In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
> INVOCATION
>
> We are from the Halluca Nation
> We are the tribe that they can not see
> We live on an industrial reservation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We have been called the Indian
> We have been called Native American
>
> We have been called Hostile
> We have been called Pagan
> We have been called Militant
> We have been called everything but who we are
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> The human beings
> They can not see us, but we can see them
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We are the evolution
> The continuation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
>
>
> John Trudell
>
> http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
>
> poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 12:57:27
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 11:00:21
> I'm confused. Are you calling Dr Bob, Shaman Bob?
> Why?.................Because tribes have shamans, it was really sort of a joke. Dr. Bob is more of a ghost figure to me, usually. When I'm posting I don't think "What will Bob think about this" I am engrossed in the issue at hand.
>
> I'm not talking about surveillance, I'm talking about Newspeak and the Thought Police. I'm talking about the Therapeutic Culture in general. And I do think there are parallels here! I was thinking of redefining all pain and social injustice in terms of mental illness within the individual. Of a kind of spiritual revisionism where despair and longing are only chemistry. Where the outrage at social injustice is labeled mental illness, etc. etc.
............On first reading, I see things differently than you. Whatever you replace the current "Newspeak" etc. with, will become the new "Newspeak" etc. Maybe you are thinking at a macro level and I'm thinking at a micro level.>
> I really really don't think Dr Bob is peeping at me through his little picture square!
>
> What has AA got to do with anything? I don't even LIKE Bill W. It takes what it takes but that's just not what it takes for me ;o).............Pullmarine and you both made reference to 1984 (big brother), and I was commenting on how I regarded that. Big brother would relate to heavy monitoring of activity, what was said (content), how it can be used against one, etc. (at least as far as the book 1984 was concerned) and I was making the point that anybody can monitor what we say here, and we should not really have an expectation of confidentially, so it did not make sense to compare PB/PSB to Big Brother IMHO, or to compare Dr. Bob to Big Brother. I made the additional point that we shouldn't expect AA etc. to be confidential (the parallel would be talking about personal things).
>
> Dr Bob is not MY shaman. How can he be yours if you never even think about him? That's something to think about.
.........I hope my shaman explanation above answers this question.>
> I didn't mean to offend you............Not offended.
>
> Sorry if I upset you..........Not upset.
I didn't mean to. I haven't read 1984 in years. Maybe we remember it differently. Best wishes
..........Ditto to you on the best wishes.
>
> Dasypodidae
>
>
>
> Gee, see how jaded yet naive one can be. I never think of Dr. Bob when I'm posting. I never even thought he read all the posts. But he must read some because he does pop in now and then.
> >
> > It doesn't feel 1984 to me, because the only thing I have to do to post here is be civil, and I'm a big fan of civility. The disclaimer up top says that what you say could conceivably be used against you, and that is also true of all the A groups (AA, NA, etc.). The A groups are not protected communication, and posting on this board is public, and so not protected. In fact, anyone on this board has access to all the posts.
> >
> > Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc. And, worst case scenario, what would he hold against us that every reader here couldn't do the same?
> >
> > S
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 13:45:39
In reply to Tribe or band of refugees?, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 12:41:47
> Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description.
Ken,
Just to be clear, my use of the word tribe is based on the idea of a group of people characterized by a common "ancestry" or customs. Ancestry in the PB/PSB sense, meaning not geneology, but some shared experiences that many of us have in common. (Funk and Wagnall helped me with defining this.)About as far away from a legalistic definition as one could get. Although, if my mom has done her geneology correctly, I am a card-carrying Native American tribe member. My use of trickster and shaman comes from what I've read, heard, seen, about Native American culture, the pow-wows I've attended, and from the course I took on "minority literature" in which the authors were Black, Chicano, Native American.
And, I didn't have in mind only native american tribes; but thoughts of tribal customs in African, and other tribes outside the US.
My usage is "if the word fits, use it." Not in the least juridical.
Shar
> In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
>
> In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
>
> One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
>
> The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
>
> As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
>
> The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
>
> Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
>
>
> > INVOCATION
> >
> > We are from the Halluca Nation
> > We are the tribe that they can not see
> > We live on an industrial reservation
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > We have been called the Indian
> > We have been called Native American
> >
> > We have been called Hostile
> > We have been called Pagan
> > We have been called Militant
> > We have been called everything but who we are
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > The human beings
> > They can not see us, but we can see them
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> > Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > We are the evolution
> > The continuation
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> >
> >
> > John Trudell
> >
> > http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
> >
> > poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 14:20:01
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees? » KenB, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 13:45:39
>
> Ken,
> Just to be clear, my use of the word tribe is based on the idea of a group of people characterized by a common "ancestry" or customs. Ancestry in the PB/PSB sense, meaning not geneology, but some shared experiences that many of us have in common. (Funk and Wagnall helped me with defining this.)
----The point is well made, but there remains a much closer form of sharing than this forum will ever approach. The suggestion that electronic text communication is synonymous to DNA relationships might diminish, in some people's minds, the value of deeper “tribal” relationships. Some writers and speakers have referred to casual dismissal of deeper relationships as being culturally genocidal. Among some people, “tribe” suggests meanings that go far beyond Funk and Wagnall’s definition. Funk and Wagnall is a collection of English usages, and not so much of usages common among English speaking "ethnic" groups.
>
> About as far away from a legalistic definition as one could get. Although, if my mom has done her geneology correctly, I am a card-carrying Native American tribe member.----Card carrying Native American tribal members carry (or at least own) tribal ID cards. It is strictly a legal definition. Tribal membership criteria vary depending on the Indian Reorganization Act constitution adopted by a specific reservation government. If you are qualified, perhaps it would be enriching for you identify your tribal family and apply for membership. Of course, card-carrying membership does not define family ties. Familiarity with family members best defines family bonds.
>My use of trickster and shaman comes from what I've read, heard, seen, about Native American culture, the pow-wows I've attended, and from the course I took on "minority literature" in which the authors were Black, Chicano, Native American.
----Exactly. The oustider's view looking in, whether looking as a reader or as a guest at social events, is often different than the members’ view as seen living on the inside.
> And, I didn't have in mind only native american tribes; but thoughts of tribal customs in African, and other tribes outside the US.
>
> My usage is "if the word fits, use it." Not in the least juridical.
>----Indeed, "fit" is a personal and subjective standard, informed by an individual's experience and background. My experience with "shamans" and "tricksters" began in my southern white christian "tribe."
Sometimes the behaviors most offensive to some cultures might be considered benign and even be encouraged by others. The PsychoBabble archives offer ample evidence of such differences.
Kendall
>
>
> > In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
> >
> > In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
> >
> > One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
> >
> > The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
> >
> > As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
> >
> > The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
> >
> > Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
> >
> >
> > > INVOCATION
> > >
> > > We are from the Halluca Nation
> > > We are the tribe that they can not see
> > > We live on an industrial reservation
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > We have been called the Indian
> > > We have been called Native American
> > >
> > > We have been called Hostile
> > > We have been called Pagan
> > > We have been called Militant
> > > We have been called everything but who we are
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > The human beings
> > > They can not see us, but we can see them
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> > > Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > We are the evolution
> > > The continuation
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > >
> > >
> > > John Trudell
> > >
> > > http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
> > >
> > > poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 14:55:39
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 10:04:24
> Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc.Because PB has great potential for research.
so we're all guiney pigs.JOHN
Posted by coral on October 29, 2000, at 15:02:45
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 14:55:39
No doubt this group would have loads of fun with a Freudian slip! :)
Posted by Greg on October 29, 2000, at 15:22:44
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees? » shar, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 14:20:01
Shar,
You and I should both by this time in our lives that no matter what we say or how we try to say it someone will disagree with it. I have been on both sides of this coin lately.
If it helps you to know this, I am honored to be a part of your "tribe".
Greg
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 15:47:23
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees - Shar, posted by Greg on October 29, 2000, at 15:22:44
All,
Could we agree that it can be useful to consider the other side? Perhaps other perspectives are not mentioned solely to disagree with an opinion. New information might be offered to build on a statement so as assert a unique and genuine concern. Additional information might be offered to expand, rather than limit horizons.
While,
> > >"Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect."...the flip side is that a symbolic means of "tribal" inclusion, such as electronic text communication, can sometimes serve to restore a sense of place that is important for stable cognitive functions.
If so, symbolic means of inclusion that serve some well might be inadequate for others. Discussion of the variable values can be constructive.
Kendall
>Shar,
>You and I should both by this time in our lives >that no matter what we say or how we try to say >it someone will disagree with it. I have been on >both sides of this coin lately.>If it helps you to know this, I am honored to be >a part of your "tribe".
>Greg
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 16:00:16
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by coral on October 29, 2000, at 15:02:45
> No doubt this group would have loads of fun with a Freudian slip! :)
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 21:47:18
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees? » shar, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 14:20:01
Ken, let me stress and reiterate that the word tribe has more than one definition. One being yours, one being mine, and then all those dictionaries and reference manuals.
I am not, do not intend to, would not try to, and don't want to try to make a parallel between what is a tribe in my life and the precise, specific, legalistic definitions/customs/laws that come together to define a Native American tribe.
Enough said? I simply have my own opinion, cannot see how it impacts at all on the different definitions of tribe used by others, since I don't refer to those. God forbid that we are only allowed to use a word in it's strictest most legalistic form. In that case, I am sure the word refugee, as you use it, could have exactly your points made about it.
I am ready to drop this.
Shar>
> >
> > Ken,
> > Just to be clear, my use of the word tribe is based on the idea of a group of people characterized by a common "ancestry" or customs. Ancestry in the PB/PSB sense, meaning not geneology, but some shared experiences that many of us have in common. (Funk and Wagnall helped me with defining this.)
>
>
> ----The point is well made, but there remains a much closer form of sharing than this forum will ever approach. The suggestion that electronic text communication is synonymous to DNA relationships might diminish, in some people's minds, the value of deeper “tribal” relationships. Some writers and speakers have referred to casual dismissal of deeper relationships as being culturally genocidal. Among some people, “tribe” suggests meanings that go far beyond Funk and Wagnall’s definition. Funk and Wagnall is a collection of English usages, and not so much of usages common among English speaking "ethnic" groups.
>
>
> >
> > About as far away from a legalistic definition as one could get. Although, if my mom has done her geneology correctly, I am a card-carrying Native American tribe member.
>
> ----Card carrying Native American tribal members carry (or at least own) tribal ID cards. It is strictly a legal definition. Tribal membership criteria vary depending on the Indian Reorganization Act constitution adopted by a specific reservation government. If you are qualified, perhaps it would be enriching for you identify your tribal family and apply for membership. Of course, card-carrying membership does not define family ties. Familiarity with family members best defines family bonds.
>
> >My use of trickster and shaman comes from what I've read, heard, seen, about Native American culture, the pow-wows I've attended, and from the course I took on "minority literature" in which the authors were Black, Chicano, Native American.
>
> ----Exactly. The oustider's view looking in, whether looking as a reader or as a guest at social events, is often different than the members’ view as seen living on the inside.
>
>
> > And, I didn't have in mind only native american tribes; but thoughts of tribal customs in African, and other tribes outside the US.
> >
> > My usage is "if the word fits, use it." Not in the least juridical.
> >
>
> ----Indeed, "fit" is a personal and subjective standard, informed by an individual's experience and background. My experience with "shamans" and "tricksters" began in my southern white christian "tribe."
>
> Sometimes the behaviors most offensive to some cultures might be considered benign and even be encouraged by others. The PsychoBabble archives offer ample evidence of such differences.
>
> Kendall
> >
> >
> > > In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
> > >
> > > In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
> > >
> > > One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
> > >
> > > The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
> > >
> > > As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
> > >
> > > The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
> > >
> > > Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
> > >
> > >
> > > > INVOCATION
> > > >
> > > > We are from the Halluca Nation
> > > > We are the tribe that they can not see
> > > > We live on an industrial reservation
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > We have been called the Indian
> > > > We have been called Native American
> > > >
> > > > We have been called Hostile
> > > > We have been called Pagan
> > > > We have been called Militant
> > > > We have been called everything but who we are
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > The human beings
> > > > They can not see us, but we can see them
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> > > > Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > We are the evolution
> > > > The continuation
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John Trudell
> > > >
> > > > http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
> > > >
> > > > poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 21:51:32
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 14:55:39
Pull,
it says right up top that he is allowed to make use of these posts. I figured research would be the most likely way.
Shar>
> > Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc.
>
> Because PB has great potential for research.
> so we're all guiney pigs.
>
> JOHN
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.