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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 16:38:13
I've sort of drifted in and out of varying states of depression for several years. I take meds that work pretty well and have been seeing a therapist for a couple of years now whom I really like. One of the things I really struggle with (and there are definitely a few) is a pervasive guilt about having depression and more to the point, not being able to keep it at bay more successfully. I have no family history of depression and have really led a relatively trauma free, and healthy life. I have what alot of people would consider to be a good job (altho I pretty much hate it) and a great family. I have a decent understanding of some of the factors that precipitated a second episode of major depression about 5 or 6 years ago, but I can't forgive the fact that I can't seem to put all this behind me. I function fairy well and very very few people have a clue that I've had depression. But on some level I feel depressed or are otherwise reminded of depression every day and it's this huge part of my life that I can't rid myself of. It sometimes feels as if the only thing that depresses my is my depression itself. My tolerance level for this has disappeared and it seem to take next to nothing to trigger depressive thoughts. My suicidal ideation is off the charts too much of the time. It's so bad for me sometimes that I've developed this theory that the only reason that I still feel depressed is that i want to be - that on some level it's easier to be depressed than not, and that if I really wanted, I could will this all away or make some radical changes to my life that my help to shake me out of my current malaise. My therapist keeps telling me that she's certain this isn't the case with me, but I can't seem to figure out why it's impossible for me to feel better about myself. I'm so contemptuous of the way i do feel. I feel that I'm caught in this spiral. Sorry for all the ramblings but can anyone identify with what I'm talking about? ksvt
Posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 17:39:58
In reply to Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 16:38:13
Hi- I felt more guilt at my first depression (5 years ago) than I do now. At that time, my knowledge of depression was very minimal-but I had a great doctor that not only helped with prescriptions but just talking. Of course,I think there still is a stigma attached to depression maybe that's what causes your guilt. There are still only a handful of people that know about my depressions, and most of them are people who went throught it themselves so are very understanding.
I am in a mild depression right now, but as I have had many difficult things happen this year (death of parent, illness of other parent,moving, changing jobs) I don't feel guilty, but that it is the stress of the circumstances I have been going through. Hope this helps some. CS
Posted by CarolynAnn on October 15, 2000, at 18:29:20
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by cs on October 15, 2000, at 17:39:58
I think most depressed persons feel some degree of guilt. Some of that is from the illness itself, and some from the social stigma of mental illness. If you can't see it you must be imagining it. Even though I KNOW better, I still feel that way myself sometimes. I hope that knowing you are not alone helps.
Carolyn
> Hi- I felt more guilt at my first depression (5 years ago) than I do now. At that time, my knowledge of depression was very minimal-but I had a great doctor that not only helped with prescriptions but just talking. Of course,I think there still is a stigma attached to depression maybe that's what causes your guilt. There are still only a handful of people that know about my depressions, and most of them are people who went throught it themselves so are very understanding.
> I am in a mild depression right now, but as I have had many difficult things happen this year (death of parent, illness of other parent,moving, changing jobs) I don't feel guilty, but that it is the stress of the circumstances I have been going through. Hope this helps some. CS
Posted by Cindy W on October 15, 2000, at 20:04:07
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by CarolynAnn on October 15, 2000, at 18:29:20
> I think most depressed persons feel some degree of guilt. Some of that is from the illness itself, and some from the social stigma of mental illness. If you can't see it you must be imagining it. Even though I KNOW better, I still feel that way myself sometimes. I hope that knowing you are not alone helps.
> Carolyn
>
>
> > Hi- I felt more guilt at my first depression (5 years ago) than I do now. At that time, my knowledge of depression was very minimal-but I had a great doctor that not only helped with prescriptions but just talking. Of course,I think there still is a stigma attached to depression maybe that's what causes your guilt. There are still only a handful of people that know about my depressions, and most of them are people who went throught it themselves so are very understanding.
> > I am in a mild depression right now, but as I have had many difficult things happen this year (death of parent, illness of other parent,moving, changing jobs) I don't feel guilty, but that it is the stress of the circumstances I have been going through. Hope this helps some. CSksvt, you're definitely not alone! I feel guilty for STILL being depressed. Despite the best meds and therapy I can find, the depression is still with me. It waxes and wanes.
Posted by Ted on October 15, 2000, at 20:47:42
In reply to Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 16:38:13
ksvt,
I have bipolar disorder. I don't have guilt about having mental illness. I have guilt about behavior and actions while either depressed or (hypo-)manic. Not quite the same thing, but perhaps you can understand the difference. And for me it goes back 30 years to childhood. I am haunted by shameful and/or humiliating memories of past actions.
Ted
Posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 22:54:17
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please » ksvt, posted by Ted on October 15, 2000, at 20:47:42
K-
I think in our society there is a huge focus on being productive, the Puritan work ethic, accomplish big things, earn your age, etc. And in a depressed state, when you are moving thru molasses, it just goes against all of that. So, I think we flog ourselves for laziness or I should do more, or I should be able to just quit feeling this way, etc.And other people flog us for that too, even if they are somewhat subtle. (hah) So, if I were to leave work early, or take a medical leave, or not get out of my pj's till 5:00 p.m. on Sunday, etc. that is antithetical to the "we should be busy and productive and happy" way of thinking.
I always get pissed when someone says I'm feeling sorry for myself (I got that lots as a depressed teen). Damn straight! I'm in pain and I hate it. I am motivated to get out of pain. If there was proven method, I'd jump on it. So, if I don't feel sorry for myself, who will?
Oh, and if you are female, esp. not young, (I'm 48), and you have weight gain on meds--there's another 57 "rules" you are going against. Supposed to be attractive, size 8, no gray hair, and a great big ol' smile. Yessiree!
Now I'm pissed. I always get pissed when I think of this, and it's actually very energizing.
Thou art not alone.
Shar
Posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 0:50:02
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 22:54:17
Once when I was in the hospital, one of the assignments I was given was to make a large sign stating DEPRESSION IS AN ILLNESS NOT A CHARACTER FLAW! You are in good company I think. Quilter
Posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 6:21:08
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 0:50:02
Yes, yes, yes, I so feel the guilt. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (I know that intellectually, but this morning, woke up feeling like yesterday's dog poop.) After stringing several positive days together, feeling I was making really good progress, everything collapses in a nano-second. It's like making a wonderful, elaborate sandcastle, feeling happy and even proud (maybe that's my sin?), and one damned wave knocks it into oblivion. Then, the self-loathing starts (or surfaces?) Maybe subconsciously I knew this was going to happen today because yesterday, I insisted that my husband and I tackle a business proposal that's due this afternoon. (We're self-employed). So, I have six hours to get ready for this appointment, and even taking a bath seems an impossible task. Had we not completed the rough draft yesterday, there's no way I could've helped with it today, and would've dumped it (again!) on my husband. Guilt? Yes. I'm his life partner and business partner, and as valuable to him right now as a flat tire. He's wonderful and deserves more. As I sit here writing this, I'm desperately hoping the meds kick in before he gets up, so it'll be easier "faking it" today. Guilt. Right now, I can't get away from the self-condemnation of how I could've let this happen to me.
Posted by Christina on October 16, 2000, at 8:15:03
In reply to Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 16:38:13
I feel guilty about the effects my illness has on my family. I also feel guilty about how it affects my job performance (or lack thereof).
My family understands my problems, but my employer and co workers do not (because I haven't disclosed this). I think they probably just consider me lazy or incapable. I live with the daily stress of thinking I will eventually get fired.
I think I'll start another thread about this topic (job performance).
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 8:55:35
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by shar on October 15, 2000, at 22:54:17
> I always get pissed when someone says I'm feeling sorry for myself
I know this might sound like semantic manipulation, but I believe that if one is truly feeling SORRY for oneself, it is not depression, but empathy. Depression is more like shaming oneself or blaming oneself. So what others call feeling sorry isn't really that. Truly feeling sorry might be the start of some good grief process.
Posted by CarolAnn on October 16, 2000, at 9:53:22
In reply to Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by ksvt on October 15, 2000, at 16:38:13
ksvt, I know exactly what you are talking about! I have also felt, many times, that I ought to be able to 'overcome' my depression, then I feel guilty that I haven't managed to do it yet.
I also feel extremely guilty anytime I see a person with a physical handicap. I start thinking about how I am perfectly healthy and, "what have I got to be depressed about?". I absolutely detest the phrase, "count your blessings"! That really lays on the guilt, because to anyone else, my life looks so great: loving husband, nice home, healthy child, objectively speaking, my life 'is' great! So, again, "what have I got to be depressed about?". In fact, how *dare* I be depressed?!? CarolAnn
Posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 10:39:44
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please » ksvt, posted by CarolAnn on October 16, 2000, at 9:53:22
Yes, I feel badly (guilt + shame, I think) about the effects of my depression on friendships, family relationships, job performance, and overal reliability.
I am trying to "undo" the damage now, which can be a discouraging process, without letting it depress me again!
Posted by Ted on October 16, 2000, at 20:24:26
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 0:50:02
> Once when I was in the hospital, one of the assignments I was given was to make a large sign stating DEPRESSION IS AN ILLNESS NOT A CHARACTER FLAW!
Beautiful! Absolutely beautiful. Well done!
Ted
Posted by ksvt on October 16, 2000, at 20:29:48
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by noa on October 16, 2000, at 10:39:44
> Yes, I feel badly (guilt + shame, I think) about the effects of my depression on friendships, family relationships, job performance, and overal reliability.
>
> I am trying to "undo" the damage now, which can be a discouraging process, without letting it depress me again!Thanks for all the responses. I think I do ok not obsessing about all of the bad things that have already happened because of depression, like friendships ignored, poor job performance (altho that one I may never get over), loss of money etc. What eats at me mostly is that even when I'm doing relatively well, there are still all of these residual side effects so I never really feel well, I just feel bad or better. I fortunately have really good insurance coverage - theoretically unmanaged care when it comes to mental health benefits. Purely out of the blue, my insurer started just ignoring my claims for therapy about 4 or 5 months ago. At one point they claimed that none of these claims showed up in their computer (altho they were all submitted separately) and I had to resubmit them as a group. Now they keep telling me my claims are under review to see why they are not being processed. My insurer gives itself 7 to 21 days to respond to inquiries, so every time i call it seems to trigger a new 21 day period. The only relevance to this thread is that I actually feel guilty about my extensive use of mental health resources. If I were my insurance company, I'd like not to be paying my claims, because there does seem to be no end to them. I know that there are tons more expensive diseases out there and I'm really pretty healthy otherwise, but if I view my entitlement to mental health care and benefits with a more jaundiced eye, how can I expect the insurance industry to act more responsibly? ksvt
Posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 23:43:31
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by ksvt on October 16, 2000, at 20:29:48
I have felt especilly guilty when in group therapy it seems like everyone else has had terrible things happen to them, like incest, rape, abuse, stalking...you name it. I did not have to cope with alcoholic parents, a single parent upbringing. I have no right to feel as bad as these people so why am I here? I must just be weak willed or a hypochondriac of some kind.
Part of me knows that none of us has chosen to feel the way we do, or to shirk our duties to others. But this horrible illness, this invisible disabling thief of hope is a part of each of us here. The fear of what lies ahead, and the guilt about what lies behind are mortal enemies I will have to fight as long as I live. I sure do hate trying to pick up the pieces so often, though. I tell others about my depression because I would rather be known as a nut than a lazy, stupid slob. Peculiar isn't it?
Quilter
Posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 23:54:29
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 23:43:31
> Quilter,
I feel the same way that you do. I have a set of wonderful parents. I am attending a very good school. I could have a bright future. So, why is it that I act and feel the way that I do?
I do feel guilty that I must either be weak or I am psychotic. However, I do not want to put myself down after just picking myself up after a very bad weekend. I actually felt better all on my own after interacting intensively on this board. Either I am going in my shell again and pretending everything is o.k. Or, I am really blossoming as a result of the various degree of support I have been receiving.
Finally, I hear you your guilt, but sorry I do not have an answer. Hopefully, sympathy helps a bit.
Yours truly.
I have felt especilly guilty when in group therapy it seems like everyone else has had terrible things happen to them, like incest, rape, abuse, stalking...you name it. I did not have to cope with alcoholic parents, a single parent upbringing. I have no right to feel as bad as these people so why am I here? I must just be weak willed or a hypochondriac of some kind.
> Part of me knows that none of us has chosen to feel the way we do, or to shirk our duties to others. But this horrible illness, this invisible disabling thief of hope is a part of each of us here. The fear of what lies ahead, and the guilt about what lies behind are mortal enemies I will have to fight as long as I live. I sure do hate trying to pick up the pieces so often, though. I tell others about my depression because I would rather be known as a nut than a lazy, stupid slob. Peculiar isn't it?
> Quilter
Posted by noa on October 17, 2000, at 6:48:40
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please » quilter, posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 23:54:29
Quilter, that theme has bothered me from time to time--others have had it worse. But I came into this world with some significant vulnerabilities, and the "match" with the parenting I received (tho certainly not the worst parenting) was not a good one.
I guess what I feel guilty about with regard to all of this is that I wish I could feel more gratitude for what is right, and not just be focused on what is wrong. For example, I am able-bodied, smart enough, had a good education (for the most part), have good siblings, have parents who have mellowed a lot in their old age, etc. etc. etc.
About 8-10 years ago, when I was in a better state of mind, I used to come home every day to my tiny studio apartment after a day at work, visiting disabled infants and their parents in the poorest parts of town, and sigh a sigh of relief, and say to myself, "ah, stable, affordable housing". What I had wasn't much, and I surely wanted more, but seeing these families in their situations (really dangerous housing situations often, on top of having to care for really sick babies and poverty and assorted other problems), really put it in perspective for me.
BTW, that stable affordable housing wouldn't have lasted for me. About 3 years after I left that town, the town repealed the 36 year old rent-control laws, and I would have been displaced!
Posted by tenuous on October 20, 2000, at 15:37:06
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by noa on October 17, 2000, at 6:48:40
I feel guilty because there is no good reason to feel bad. I feel guilty because of all damage I've done over the years. And just to
keep the guilt flowing freely, I have to keep hearing how all I have to do is:1) exercise regularly &/or
2) eat right &/or
3) take vitamin/herbal supplement X &/or
4) Just get over it./Get on with your life.I have tried all of these separately and in combination. NO they didn't work. Some of them helped a bit, but the implication
that I was depressed because I was not doing something right was more destructive than whatever help I got from the advice.
Thank God some people in the medical community finally figured out that this is physical and not just a bad attitude.
Maybe I won't feel so guilty when the rest of the world quits blaming me for feeling down without a good reason.
Posted by coral on October 20, 2000, at 18:09:32
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - feedback please, posted by tenuous on October 20, 2000, at 15:37:06
Oh, yeah.... As my world collapsed within me, like a black hole, my sister harangued my weakness, ending with, "I just don't have time to be depressed."
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 15:16:21
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - tenuous, posted by coral on October 20, 2000, at 18:09:32
Don't wait for them to stop doing that, because they might never stop.
What you can focus on is not buying into what they are saying, and not blaming yourself.
And, seeking out people who don't do this to you.
Posted by coral on October 23, 2000, at 7:42:46
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - tenuous, posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 15:16:21
Thank you, Noa. You are so right. Unfortunately, due to a parent with dementia, I still have to have contact. But, I shall never again make the mistake of discussing or even mentioning a depressive episode to her.
To me, that's one of the advantages of this board. People understand. I have one very dear friend who has also suffered clinical depression and she truly understands. Other friends are sympathetic and know that every few years, I just go nuts and am incommunicado because I fail miserably at getting them to understand. I know this sounds "holier-than-thou" but when I'm battling the beast, the last thing I need is for someone to say "Oh, I know just how you feel. Why, just last week, I got terribly depressed because Saks isn't carrying my perfume anymore."
Posted by Noa on October 23, 2000, at 17:21:17
In reply to Re: Guilt about depression - to Noa, posted by coral on October 23, 2000, at 7:42:46
The "I know just how you feel" line is one of the worst! In casual conversation, among people who are not in real distress, it is a way of connecting. But when talking to someone in real distress, it just sends the message that not only do they NOT know how you feel, but they are completely CLUELESS about what you are dealing with.
I think, for the purpose of taking care on oneself, it is helpful to identify which friends/family members ARE able to provide needed support. Then there will be the ones who are reliable as distractions from distress, but you really can't confide in them. Sometimes, the ones who disappoint you with lines like "I know just how you feel", you can wait until you are doing better and then, if the friendship is worth it, talk to them about this. It might just be a matter of education. I wouldn't think it is a great thing to try while one is in the midst of depression, crisis, distress, because you have to be able to deal with the discussion, so leaving it to when you are more stable is probably a good idea.
But, then, try to have a realistic sense of the people in your life and what you can expect from them.
This is the end of the thread.
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