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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
I'm curious what others have done to create a framework to hold unfortunate events and circumstances. I'm having difficulty w/ this, esp. since my sense of a higher power is vague at best. I fluctuate between atheist and agnonstic--more likely decline to state. Why do bad things happen? And how does one deal?
Vague question; any books that have helped?
thanks,
fb
Posted by Phillipa on January 5, 2010, at 18:24:12
In reply to framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
fb seems you have one of the same problems I do. Can't find faith. Was taught to trust no one but me. And if you needed something done do it yourself. Never taught about a higher power does it really exist? No I don't deal with it it's frightening. Phillipa
Posted by obsidian on January 5, 2010, at 20:51:41
In reply to framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
can't say that I have answers, only that I relate
are you feeling sad?
-sid
Posted by Sigismund on January 5, 2010, at 21:01:04
In reply to framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
>any books that have helped?
The Wasteland and King Lear for sure.
Florestan's aria from Fidelio (in particular), Mozart's 24th piano concerto....there's heaps of classical music that I've found useful, Dostoevsky of course, anything to free me from the burden of the optimism, basically. Bach naturally.
Posted by Blahblahblah on January 6, 2010, at 4:21:23
In reply to framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
I got a lot of clarity from reading Nietzsche. Try thus spoke Zarathustra, and beyond good and evil. I agree bout Dostoevsky. Also the outsider by Albert Camus. These are all great philosophist that deal with things in a realist way rather thAn trying to sugar coat. Don't be fooled by Nietzsche appearing to be only dark and pessemistic. He sees life as a struggle and the mind as something in which one must overcome. Good luck. If you want to talk more bout these philosophers let me know. I study it at university. Also a good fiction book that incorporates Freudian ideas and nietzsche is called when Nietzsche wept. I hope some of this helps. Please though read through all of Nietzsche so you
don't get stuck in the dark elements of him.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 6, 2010, at 10:51:10
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on January 5, 2010, at 18:24:12
Yeah, I was raised Catholic; now I find some help in Buddhism. Hubby and I laugh that it's the church of God w/o God, referencing Flannery O 'Conner.
> fb seems you have one of the same problems I do. Can't find faith. Was taught to trust no one but me. And if you needed something done do it yourself. Never taught about a higher power does it really exist? No I don't deal with it it's frightening. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on January 6, 2010, at 11:04:02
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » floatingbridge, posted by obsidian on January 5, 2010, at 20:51:41
Hi sid, nice to see you.
Yes, I'm feeling sad--and afraid. I see some babblers here doing some good work in therapy. How do you, or someone build a container for the self? A sense of safety and, well, of being held? Does this make sense? When I never really had one. I know people do it. Like constructing parents, or finding a way to hold loss and through that, strength to let go of loss and live again.
I know I'm rambling.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 6, 2010, at 11:12:10
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Sigismund on January 5, 2010, at 21:01:04
Hi Sigi,
I'm curious, what's the burden of optimism?
King Lear & The Wasteland end in two different faiths, I'm thinking--one in human love and the other in religious transcendance--I mean, from how I see it in my armchair. I don't think O could read the wasteland right now. What do you like about King Lear?
fb
> >any books that have helped?
>
> The Wasteland and King Lear for sure.
>
> Florestan's aria from Fidelio (in particular), Mozart's 24th piano concerto....there's heaps of classical music that I've found useful, Dostoevsky of course, anything to free me from the burden of the optimism, basically. Bach naturally.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 6, 2010, at 11:20:42
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Blahblahblah on January 6, 2010, at 4:21:23
Blahblah,
Thanks for the recommendations. I don't think I could read Nietchze now. And Camus' stranger rips me apart. The fiction you mention is intriguing--I'll look it up.
Thanks,
fb
Posted by Sigismund on January 6, 2010, at 15:01:18
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » Sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on January 6, 2010, at 11:12:10
'The burden of optimism' is just me over-egging the sauce. Not as good as 'The calamity of consciousness' either. I suppose you are right.....everything other than love bites the dust in King Lear, though good (Kent) is not rewarded and general good intentions (Albany) are cruelly frustrated.
In Lear I like lots of things, but the high point (so to speak) is Lear and Gloucester together mad and blind: "Oh, are you here with me then?", a touching of bottom, a point beyond which things cannot get worse and therefore a reassurance of sorts.
I've needed a framework to allow the expression and feeling of grief. Odd isn't it?
'Ridiculous the waste sad time, stretching before and after'.
Posted by Sigismund on January 6, 2010, at 15:05:15
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Blahblahblah on January 6, 2010, at 4:21:23
Now you're talking. I never managed to read much Nietzche, except for 'Ecce Homo' (which is wonderfully entertaining).
I have to read Schopenhauer.
Posted by Sigismund on January 6, 2010, at 15:16:19
In reply to framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
I really did like "The Temptation to Exist" by EM Cioran, especially the essay "Thinking Against oneself". Very funny.
We need to find something to help us feel the grief we cannot avoid, so it does not get stuck in us.
And we find that in art, the great books and music, I think.
Posted by Sigismund on January 6, 2010, at 15:24:34
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Sigismund on January 6, 2010, at 15:16:19
I've been on the lookout for frameworks for grief since I was under 10. I started on shark attacks. This woman was bitten by a shark and died 3 days later...that was a good framework for me, though less so for those around me. "I have learned more since. As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods, they kill us for their sport." Really, Lear is wonderful.
Posted by Daisym on January 7, 2010, at 0:40:39
In reply to framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 5, 2010, at 16:58:14
I think these are very separate questions that perhaps intersect at the point of one answering the other.
Existential struggles happen often when we witness what appears to be senseless suffering. For myself, when people tell me, "everything happens for a reason" I want to demand they find the reason in csa. I usually hold my tongue, because what I know to be true is that people sometimes need to hold this belief in order to cope. I find my faith to be incredibly important as a coping mechanism - though I rage at God at times too. I don't think anyone can really adequately explain why bad things happen. Have you read "God's Shrink"? It is a piece of fiction that tries to answer this question.
As far as a container goes, I think you have to practice with different things to figure out what works for you. Faith - God - can be a container of sorts. You can put your trust in God and not feel quite so alone with your grief, if this works for you. If you don't believe, you can construct other ways of holding or managing your grief. Writing/Journal is one of the major ways I cope. I put my grief on paper, which holds it. Other people have talked about an imaginary box, which locks, or a drawer. It helps to have concrete representations as well. I suggest actually buying a container for yourself and writing things down and locking them away. It might seem silly, but these kinds of symbolic acts do work.
The other major container, for me, is my therapist. We work hard to stay connected between sessions so that I feel held. We work with many of the self-psychology concepts and as we actively dismantled many of my defenses, he alloweded me "borrow" his core self as a way of shoring up mine. The container does spring leaks sometimes, but talking about what is going to work and having a plan in place, really does help.
Posted by vwoolf on January 7, 2010, at 13:36:33
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » floatingbridge, posted by Daisym on January 7, 2010, at 0:40:39
I am very interested to understand what you mean by 'borrowing' his core self. How do you do that? What is that about? And what kind of leaks does that spring as a container? I'd really appreciate it if you could explain.
Posted by Sigismund on January 7, 2010, at 15:53:37
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » floatingbridge, posted by Daisym on January 7, 2010, at 0:40:39
>Existential struggles happen often when we witness what appears to be senseless suffering. For myself, when people tell me, "everything happens for a reason" I want to demand they find the reason in csa. I usually hold my tongue, because what I know to be true is that people sometimes need to hold this belief in order to cope. I find my faith to be incredibly important as a coping mechanism - though I rage at God at times too. I don't think anyone can really adequately explain why bad things happen. Have you read "God's Shrink"? It is a piece of fiction that tries to answer this question.
I never know 'why' really, but sometimes I understand 'how'.
Sometimes I like Ezra Pound's line: 'A botched civilisation, gone in the teeth'.>The other major container, for me, is my therapist. We work hard to stay connected between sessions so that I feel held. We work with many of the self-psychology concepts and as we actively dismantled many of my defenses, he alloweded me "borrow" his core self as a way of shoring up mine. The container does spring leaks sometimes, but talking about what is going to work and having a plan in place, really does help.
It's funny with therapy. You know how you think 'this doesn't work', but after all these years and my therapist now dead, I feel her in me, as I should I guess.
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2010, at 18:13:35
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Sigismund on January 7, 2010, at 15:53:37
>Sometimes I like Ezra Pound's line: 'A botched civilisation, gone in the teeth'.
I'm having trouble with my AD (agomelatine) and have reduced the dose.
I'm not sure that using Ezra Pound in his immediate post-fascist phase justifies much in the way of a critique of this society.
Then again.....
Posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2010, at 18:47:28
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2010, at 18:13:35
Sigi, I'm sorry you're having to tweak your AD. You hanging in there?
I never did cotton to Pound, though here and there a phrase remains indelibly. Of the modernists, I read Williams, though he isn't a true modernist. What I could relate to was the earthiness of his work,
fed by his MD experiences. One could sustain an unfavorable critique of his work as well. (I like reading, but am not much of an intellectual :-)I've been thinking of King Learn quite a
bit since your post. Also brings to mind the samurai films featuring Zatoichi, the blind samurai. Have you seen any?Hope you are doing alright,
fb
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2010, at 19:07:54
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » Sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2010, at 18:47:28
"It has been accidental that I knew Alan Ginsberg. My only association with him was that he had something to say and I wanted him to say it. I have told him - I mean I am disgusted with him and his long lines."
This is from the man who wrote something like
"Twenty sparrows on a scattered turd
Share and share alike."Thank you. I haven't seen those Samurai films. When I was in Japan though we went to Himeji castle, which is a magnificent monument to paranoia, existing for no other purpose than to defend itself, but doing it very beautifully. It even has a courtyard to commit hari kiri or whatever it is.
http://www.destination6.com/images/photos/fullSize/japan_0017.jpg
Posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2010, at 19:29:08
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » floatingbridge, posted by Daisym on January 7, 2010, at 0:40:39
Daisym,
Thanks for writing!
when we witness what appears to be senseless suffering. For myself, when people tell me, "everything happens for a reason" I want to demand they find the reason in csa. I usually hold my tongue, because what I know to be true is that people sometimes need to hold this belief in order to cope. I find my faith to be incredibly important as a coping mechanism - though I rage at God at
times too. I don't think anyone can really adequately explain why bad things happen. Have you read "God's Shrink"? It is a piece of fiction that tries to answer this question.The book looks good--thanks for the link. I really am tired of asking why. Seems so childish. Well, if the shoe fits, I suppose....
What's csa?>
> As far as a container goes, I think you have to practice with different things to figure out what works for you. Faith - God - can be a container of sorts. You can put your trust in God and not feel quite so alone with your grief, if this works for you. If you don't believe, you can construct other ways of holding or managing your grief. Writing/Journal is one of the major ways I cope. I put my grief on paper, which holds it. Other people have talked about an imaginary box, which locks, or a drawer. It helps to have concrete representations as well. I suggest actually buying a container for yourself and writing things down and locking them away. It might seem silly, but these kinds of symbolic acts do work
Writing is very helpful--I'm not sure why
I avoid it--good self-care has been tough for me to cultivate. I'm learning. And the symbolic act of a lock box sounds great. I may use it, really. Thank you> The other major container, for me, is my therapist. We work hard to stay connected between sessions so that I
feel held. We work with many of the self-psychology concepts and as we actively dismantled many of my defenses, he alloweded me "borrow" his core self as a way of shoring up mine. The container
does spring leaks sometimes, but talking
about what is going to work and having a plan in place, really does help.>
Sounds like a great theraputic relationship, one I feel you must have put a lot of effort into creating. My t has talked about how I project my personal
strength on him, and I'm just wrapping
my head around that. A core self. That implies trust. Difficult for me, but
perhaps not an impossible goal. Since I last posted, I had a terrible nightmare, quite apocolyptic and vivid which I wrote and read to t. This was quite fruitful,
laying barer than before my fears and vulnetabilities--I always expect someone to run, and t didn't.A core self. I feel like I'm trying to reconcile the film noir world with an unscathed on. I suppose the work is in part imaginary and symbolic, placing
trust in another. Well, actually, as I write this, I realize it is quite concrete as well. Dismantling defenses. Yes, I suppose
this is a great part of what we are doing. I have a sense of what you mean by 'springi g leaks'. A boat metaphor--shoring up the self.Thank you. You've given some ideas to think about.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2010, at 19:42:00
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief? » floatingbridge, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2010, at 19:07:54
Sigi, is that Pound or Williams?
The films are intended, I think to be somewhat lightish entertainment; there is an extended series of like two billion, filmed in the 60's--70's. They are cinematically lovely and quite poignant, more so, I think, by not aiming at art.
But I love Japanese cinema--at least I did before my first major depression. :-)
thanx for the pic! What a sight.
fb
> "It has been accidental that I knew Alan tGinsberg. My only association with him was that he had something to say and I wanted him to say it. I have told him - I mean I am disgusted with him and his long lines."
>
> This is from the man who wrote something like
> "Twenty sparrows on a scattered turd
> Share and share alike."
>
> Thank you. I haven't seen those Samurai films. When I was in Japan though we went to Himeji castle, which is a magnificent monument to paranoia, existing for no other purpose than to defend itself, but doing it very beautifully. It even has a courtyard to commit hari kiri or whatever it is.
> http://www.destination6.com/images/photos/fullSize/japan_0017.jpg
Posted by Sigismund on January 10, 2010, at 13:22:59
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 8, 2010, at 19:42:00
All that was from Williams.
Alan Ginsberg does have long lines, but I hadn't imagined they would cause disgust.
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness dum te dum.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 10, 2010, at 15:15:00
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Sigismund on January 10, 2010, at 13:22:59
Frankly, the good doctor Williams had his fair share of biases and prejudices. So, disgust, I could guess might be for reasons other than the length and legginess of Ginsberg's lines. Early on I searched for a father figure in poetry. None in the modernists. George Oppen comes close--but I think he's an.objectivist or something like that. He probably thought nothing of the sort
;-)
You sure read lots! And have fantastic recall to boot!
fb
Posted by Sigismund on January 10, 2010, at 17:52:45
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by floatingbridge on January 10, 2010, at 15:15:00
>Early on I searched for a father figure in poetry. None in the modernists. George Oppen comes close--but I think he's an.objectivist or something like that.
I've never heard of George Oppen. I did read something about Robert Frost's attitude to slavery that pulled me up. I'll have to remember Oppen and look him up.
On the subject of TV, I'd thought the anglosphere was completely clapped out...that the domination of corporate interests was so complete that the best we could hope for was to be spoonfed with soundbites. And then along comes "The Wire" (which I imagine everyone in North America knows about) set in Baltimore, written with so much humanity, awareness, love of language and sympathy generally. We watch it with the subtitles on because so much of the slang is foreign to us. The African-American slang is amazing.
Posted by Sigismund on January 13, 2010, at 1:50:34
In reply to Re: framework for trauma / grief?, posted by Blahblahblah on January 6, 2010, at 4:21:23
>I got a lot of clarity from reading Nietzsche.
I enjoyed this....
'Glance into the world as though time were gone; and everything crooked will become straight to you.'
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