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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Daisym on May 12, 2009, at 23:42:14
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
I have to point out that guilt is not an effective punishment in these situations. If you pay him the full fee, he will not feel guilty. So you will have attempted to shame him, and he won't take the bait. I'd hang on to your money.
Perhaps you could put on your own therapist hat here and wonder (out loud of course) what he feels you worked on or accomplished in your last session? Be curious with him - did he earn a full fee? If so, why does he think he did? Who is responsible for the frame, including fire drills?
But don't hurt yourself to hurt him. It isn't worth it.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on May 13, 2009, at 0:16:33
In reply to I loathe my therapist sometimes., posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 11:54:55
Dinah,
First of all, OMG!!!! about all of it. The money thing is big, of course, but I'm still stuck back on the experience of the fire drill. AAACKK.Secondly, what 10derHeart said about your T's motivation for seeing you has to be right on and was beautifully said.
Thirdly, I LOVE what Daisym has suggested. TOTALLY. I mean, I especially like the idea of coming to it from a curiosity perspective. They are always telling us to do that! Who does work for who anyway?
Lastly, everyone on this board is SO INCREDIBLE. Wait, I'll make a new thread about that.
Anyway, I'm sorry this happened. I totally get why you would have felt like you did and sure hope that some resolution can come of it.
FMD
Posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 1:35:45
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
It IS funny in a sort of "can you believe the nerve of this guy" sort of way.
Not to fan the flames but I wonder if he knew about the fire drill. Office buildings I worked in notified the tenants of drills in advance. I remember being at one medical office when they were having a drill in the building and we were advised to ignore it. Patients were not expected to get dressed and participate in the drill. At places I worked people in the middle of projects or meetings also ignored the drills. I wonder if all therapists would choose to participate in the drill.
> Does it seem crazy that at present I want to punish him by insisting on paying the full fee? Not that he'll recognize it as punishment. He'll likely consider me a gracious and understanding client who understand how much this wasn't his fault.
Yes! It seems crazy. It also seems totally normal and something I would do. (which means it probably IS crazy). Don't do it!
It's not his "fault" any more than it would be his fault if he were out sick but it IS his responsibility. One of the things your fee pays for is the office for the therapy to take place in. He couldn't provide that so he couldn't provide the therapy. You are not his income insurance policy!
>But on my end, I think it will wedge a little distance between us, and at this moment a little distance doesn't sound half bad. But that may be falling a bit short in the generosity of spirit I'm trying to learn to cultivate.
If it were me the demand for payment alone would be enough to drive a bit of a wedge. But I think you should show some generousity of spirit and treat him as if he were a reasonable professional Refuse to pay him at all! If he objects suggest that he really needs to get some professional advice on this matter. I wonder if he's ever been in this situation before. You've built a very strong relationship with him over the years. It would be honoring that relationship to explain to him that this is not an acceptable way to behave with you (or with anybody else). Who else would care enough to tell him?
Finally I don't think I'd interpret this as meaning he doesn't care about you. He sounds like the kind of person who demands money from everyone. You know, the ones who if they had to drive their sister to the grocery store would charge for both gas and their time and assume that everyone else did the same. I once had a friend like this. Great person, and a good friend, except was raised with some very wierd ideas about the role of money in friendships.jane
Posted by seldomseen on May 13, 2009, at 9:50:53
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
Well, I certainly agree that it was an inappropriate, ham-handed, ill-timed request.
I would have been mad as well, but like you I could *probably* separate the fiduciary relationship between the therapeutic one.
But that is a *big* probably, the two, unfortunately intrude on each other all too often.
I think it is a bad idea to pay him the full fee for the interrupted session. I would explain to him why I felt that way, preferably outside of a session.
I do think your therapist will come around and apologize for his mistake.
I will admit, I'm waiting on Poet's cyberslap as well.
Seldom
Posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 14:34:05
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
Dinah,
FWIW I think you should only pay for the time that you actually received therapy. Therapy is a contractual service. You pay for the service and he provides his time and the space. I think you both have to respect the frame in a case like this. Personal fault really doesn't come into it. If you are sick and have to cancel at the last minute, it's not your fault but you still (depending upon what the frame is) may need to pay for the missed session because it's your side of the contract. If his office, or he himself, is suddenly unavailable, he is not providing his contracted service regardless of whether it is his fault or not.
Although we all may hate the frame at times, it does serve to protect us as well. And it helps to keep the fiduciary considerations minimized in the relationship. It sounds like that might be especially helpful in this case. Using money for love, guilt, or other purposes just doesn't seem like a good idea for the therapy.
Mollie
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 13, 2009, at 15:22:22
In reply to I apparently haven't slept enough yet, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2009, at 21:35:43
How are you today, Dinah? Any resolution?
I'm thinking about you. Wish I could slap him upside the head for you (no incivility intended, though).
(((((((Dinah)))))))
Posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 15:34:02
In reply to Re: I apparently haven't slept enough yet » Dinah, posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 14:34:05
You mentioned that your sessions are not paid for by insurance. But maybe insurance is one way to think about things.I am no fan of the insurance industry, to put it mildly. But I have also never been a fan of providers who bill for services not provided. My daughter once had a T (for a very short time!) who started his sessions often 20-30 min late and ended promptly on time - and billed insurance for the full hour. If I had kept good records I would have reported him for his ethics, or lack thereof.
I'm not saying your T is unethical. I'm just wondering if this could be another way to look at the situation.
Just a thought.
Posted by Dinah on May 13, 2009, at 21:03:58
In reply to one other thought..., posted by mollieQ on May 13, 2009, at 15:34:02
He totally got it.
I told him I wasn't inclined to take my therapist's offer to pay half, and he started singing the Church Lady song. He's right. Fiftyfive dollars is a small price to pay for moral superiority. A bargain even.
My therapist could well blow the entire session fee on a dinner and movie in one evening. While my contempt for him as a person who tries to get the last dollar from a client no matter what the right thing to do may be will last forever.
Sigh. But Mollie is right. It's not good for the therapy relationship. And Daisy, you have a point too. I'd be interested to know how he thinks he deserves it.
At the moment, though, I suppose I'm a bit curious why I took it so badly and got quite as angry as I did. After all, he didn't give me any information I didn't already have. As many of you noted from my posts over the years, he is frequently insensitive and he likes money a lot. *A lot*. I know this and I love him anyway. I appreciate his finer qualities, but I am fully cognizant of his less fine qualities.
Does this mean I've slept enough? Have I dissociated myself from the rage? Or have I put everything in perspective and realized that I overreacted? I'm really not sure.
I may talk to him about it, or I might not. At the moment, I think his thoughts are trending to "I'm going to make sure I cancel with her next time there's a fire drill. She sure is kicking up a fuss, and it's easier to just avoid the whole thing." And mine might be trending to "It might not be worth the bother. It's easier to just avoid the whole thing."
And be happy I have a husband who knows me so darn well, and is with me anyway. For no money at all.
And boy, my lower thighs really hurt. Apparently a distinct set of muscles is involved in walking down stairs, and my legs are not used to using those muscles.
Thanks everyone. :) It's so nice to have you guys.
Posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 23:53:02
In reply to And I love my husband especially sometimes, posted by Dinah on May 13, 2009, at 21:03:58
>
> And boy, my lower thighs really hurt. Apparently a distinct set of muscles is involved in walking down stairs, and my legs are not used to using those muscles.
Aha! That's the explanation. We've all heard endlessly how exercise cures just about everything. This is a brand new, cutting edge therapy that synergisticly incorporates exercise directly into the therapy session.Therapists! Are you tired of feebly suggesting that a little exercise might help while knowing that your clients are going straight home to eat ice cream from the carton while complaining about therapy on line? Tempted to tip your lumpish clients out of their chairs and MAKE them do something? Try out new and improved therapy / physical trainer combo model. Benefits include clients too tired to phone you after hours, improved cardio fitness for the therapist, and an acceptable outlet for those stray urges to really see the client wince. Double billing may also be possible for clients who have fitness incentive programs through work or insurance. Call our 800 number today to become a certified STAIR model therapist. Mastercard/Visa accepted.
Be grateful you weren't charged extra for this new double therapy Dinah.
jane
(yes, going down stairs is way worse than going up)
Posted by Dinah on May 14, 2009, at 9:06:06
In reply to Re: And I love my husband especially sometimes » Dinah, posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 23:53:02
rofl.
Jane, you are good for me. I wonder if he'll think of such a good reason.
I wonder if I've shifted the pendulum too far to the other side. I don't think I overreacted on the anger, but maybe on the hate. I guess it's never pleasant to be reminded that someone you love isn't the person you wish they were. Particularly when it involves them being paid to see you. It's bound to provoke primitive reactions, no matter how accepting I am of his foibles.
I hate to talk about these things with him, but maybe I will.
I still can barely sit or stand, and hop in pain on any downward steps. He's not in particularly good shape either. I wonder if he's hurting as badly as I am. My husband said I kept waking him up all night yelping and moaning, even after Advil. That should wear off soon though, I'd think. A couple of days is all it lasts.
Posted by antigua3 on May 14, 2009, at 19:35:55
In reply to Re: And I love my husband especially sometimes » Dinah, posted by jane d on May 13, 2009, at 23:53:02
You had me laughing out loud.
Thank you, thank you, thank you...
antigua
Posted by muffled on May 15, 2009, at 12:22:04
In reply to And I love my husband especially sometimes, posted by Dinah on May 13, 2009, at 21:03:58
"I may talk to him about it, or I might not. At the moment, I think his thoughts are trending to "I'm going to make sure I cancel with her next time there's a fire drill. She sure is kicking up a fuss, and it's easier to just avoid the whole thing." And mine might be trending to "It might not be worth the bother. It's easier to just avoid the whole thing."
He KNEW there was going to be a fire drill?????
WTF??? If he knew, then you own him NOTHING. Cuz he was forwarned and should have rearranged the appt time.
HIS responsibility totally if thats the case....
BTW...HI DINAH!!!! :-)
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 12:42:55
In reply to ??? » Dinah, posted by muffled on May 15, 2009, at 12:22:04
Hi muffled!
He said if I gave it to him, he'd tear it up. Sadly, I think it was more power struggle than rapprochement. I accused him of wanting to take away my moral superiority. He said that I had moral superiority either way, but that I also had $110. He said that he had acted like an *ss, and he was trying in the only way he could think to make it up to me. I told him that money couldn't make it up to me. He said he knew. But there was a mulishness to his chin and a flatness to his eyes that told me it was far more than an attempt to make amends. He's angry with me, I think.
I'm not sure he ever did understand the point. He kept saying things like "You have every right to be angry." but then was unable to accurately reflect back why I was angry. I explained many times, in as many different ways as I could. He said that in relationships, sometimes we have to repeat ourselves in order to be understood. I think he may have gotten a glimmer when I told him that there was a fundamental difference in our perceptions of the relationship based on the fact that I cared enough about seeing him to pay him every single time I saw him. While he had to be paid to see me. I told him that he needed to be cognizant of that when thinking of his words. That asking me for the cash, when I was clearly upset (or it should have been clear to him as my therapist, even if I wasn't crying or hyperventilating), shook the trust I had finally gained that I was more than an income stream. He didn't ask if I was ok. He didn't express regret. He asked for a check. I felt like a great big fat dollar sign.
I admitted that I'd hated him for a moment. I told him that had I not had a well established relationship with him, I'd have dropped his check in the gutter, walked off, and never seen him again. I told him it was a foolish business decision to jeopardize a profitable income stream for the fees of a single session. I was unkind. He was angry, but wouldn't admit it. I wish he'd admit it at least. His eyes get so flat when he's angry that they really do look brown instead of blue.
I also told him that maybe it was for the best. That maybe once in a while I needed to feel the truth in my gut, not my brain. And that the polite ritual of handing over the check and receiving a receipt might not be sufficient to viscerally feel the truth. He didn't deny it. He looked a little sad.
He said that being a therapist was a weird way to make a living. That it was a job in some respects. But that part of the job was forming relationships. And that the relationships were real - very real, and separate somehow to him.
Or something like that. He said it really well, much better than I do. I'm sure he has had to discuss it before...
Posted by muffled on May 15, 2009, at 12:49:20
In reply to He refused to take a check today, posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 12:42:55
maybe he's not a total *ss......
Just an idiot.
Good for him for at least showing a hint of class and decency.
Take care,
Ones
Posted by Tabitha on May 15, 2009, at 13:01:25
In reply to He refused to take a check today, posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 12:42:55
I wonder if he was flummoxed by the whole awkward episode himself, and asking for payment was his way of restoring the relationship to its normal order?
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm defending him-- I just thought looking for his own fragile humanity in this might feel better than seeing him as a callous, money-grubbing businessman.
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 13:05:41
In reply to Re: He refused to take a check today, posted by Tabitha on May 15, 2009, at 13:01:25
That's what he said. That he was discombobulated. He said he was upset that this had happened in my time slot, because he knew how anxious I was in crowds. And he wasn't thinking clearly.
I suppose that could possibly be true. He does tend to lose his head in stressful situations. He didn't look all that stressed, but maybe he was.
But now he's angry with me. I hate that. I'd much rather be angry with him.
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 13:17:52
In reply to Re: He refused to take a check today » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 13:05:41
My moral superiority.
He hurt me and I was unkind today. But maybe he didn't mean to hurt me, and maybe I meant to be unkind.
I feel pretty rotten.
Posted by rskontos on May 15, 2009, at 14:07:39
In reply to I guess I lost it :(, posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 13:17:52
Dinah,
Don't feel bad. I just dropped in here briefly and saw your thread. I appreciate your mail to me the other day and wanted to tell you not to beat yourself up.
I think he just showed his human side, for better or worse, and it was your unfortunate luck of the draw to be the one that it happened to.
He is a good therapist for you, but he was wrong. At least he admitted and tried to make reparations. I understand how you feel though and you are right and he is right.
That does happen sometimes. Two people in a relationship both being right but still at odds.
take care
rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 19:10:56
In reply to Re: I guess I lost it :( » Dinah, posted by rskontos on May 15, 2009, at 14:07:39
Thanks, rsk.
I hate behaving badly, and I do think I behaved badly today. I called him to apologize, and he doesn't seem mad.
I'll try not to be angry with myself about it.
Hopefully we can start over again next week.
Posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 22:54:54
In reply to Re: I guess I lost it :( » rskontos, posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 19:10:56
I think one of the great things about being secure in a relationship is being able to show your anger, even in an unkind way, and yet still know that the relationship will be OK. These bad minutes pass and fade. I'm jealous of your courage.
sometimes I watch couples fight on TV and I'm always blown away when someone speaks their own truth clearly, no matter if it hurts the other person. Not making excuses for another's bad behavior or poor judgement means you trust that they can hear you and make their own adjustments. We tell parents to say, "I don't like what you did, not I don't like you."
You did that today. It was good.
Posted by Poet on May 15, 2009, at 23:20:33
In reply to I guess I lost it :(, posted by Dinah on May 15, 2009, at 13:17:52
an extra hard one straight to Dinah's T's head.
Dinah, please don't feel bad about thinking you were unkind to your T, he hurt you and you have a right to defend yourself against hurt.
One more cyberslap to his head.
Poet
Posted by mollieQ on May 15, 2009, at 23:31:05
In reply to Re: I guess I lost it :( » Dinah, posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 22:54:54
I don't think you should feel bad about how you responded even when you fought with him, Dinah. You expressed, clearly and firmly, your feelings about something that is a very real issue within your relationship. That is important, and that you can do it is, as Daisy said, a tribute to your relationship.The issue of money is particularly sensitive in the therapy relationship. I'm glad your T was able to indicate how it affects him as a person who does therapy for a living. What happened to you is what happens in every close relationship: something stirs up a deep, complex, painful issue that is unresolved, and soon everyone is off to the races. In a good relationship, you air the feelings, dust yourselves off, and start again. And that appears to be what happened here.
So good for you. Just sorry it had to be so darned unpleasant for you.
Mollie
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2009, at 8:21:02
In reply to Re: I guess I lost it :( » Dinah, posted by Daisym on May 15, 2009, at 22:54:54
See, I'm not usually like that. My husband and I fight very respectfully. He told me I was acting like my mother once. But we worked that out and added it to the below the belt remarks.
I tend to attend to the relationship as a whole more than I do to any given moment in the relationship.
Still, with my therapist I do occasionally blow up and act unkindly. Maybe because I have no belief that I can hurt him. Maybe because I don't think I can hurt him, I'm driven to try. On occasion. Rare occasion I hope.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2009, at 8:22:27
In reply to By Popular Demand A Cyberslap, posted by Poet on May 15, 2009, at 23:20:33
*That* he does deserve. :)
Thank you, Poet.
(I hope you're having a good time. I wish I could be there.)
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2009, at 8:27:04
In reply to Re: I guess I lost it :( » Daisym, posted by mollieQ on May 15, 2009, at 23:31:05
> In a good relationship, you air the feelings, dust yourselves off, and start again. And that appears to be what happened here.
I hope so. I called to humbly apologize, and when he called back I had my son in the car so couldn't really talk. But he seemed fine, and had likely forgotten it. Sometimes my therapist's rotten memory works well for me. He rarely is angry for long.
I thought I had the money issues sorted out in my brain. But I guess they were just lying dormant for the right trigger.
It's funny. I'll always have pain in this relationship because of how it's structured. Yet if he were to say to me that he'd see me for free, or cared about me like a friend, I'd be horrified and fight it every step of the way. I'm angry that I don't have something I don't really want. Weird, isn't it?
This is the end of the thread.
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