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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
Speaking of college, I'm curious as to why some people choose not to go to college. I'm doing some research that concerns U.S. human capital in part, and although this is not part of my research 'question', I am just curious.
Obviously, current mental health issues can prevent college attendance, but I would like to hear your input based on past experiences, former decision dynamics, or characteristics of people you know such as friends or kids.
For 2007, less than 29 percent of the U.S. population had a college degree. The numbers have steadily, but slowly, increased since 1970. For 2000, it was about 26 percent of the population.
It's also interesting that for 2008, women comprised 58 percent of all college students enrolled during that year.
Any opinions would be interesting.
Posted by onceupon on April 7, 2009, at 13:11:16
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
I don't have answers for your initial question, but I know that there is anecodotal (I think) evidence that individuals with mental health issues are more able to attend college now, as compared with several decades ago because of the widespread availability of psychotropic medications. In other words, students who might not have attended college previously, due to overwhelming mental health issues, may now be able to attend given that they can be stabilized on medication. Also, the Americans with Disabilities Act mandates the availability of support services for students with mental health issues. Of course, that means needing to disclose these issues, which can be hairy in its own right, given the ongoing associated stigma.
Good luck in your research!
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2009, at 14:58:56
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
I didn't go to college, because I had no desire to. I joined the army right out of high school (1964).....A lot of people going to college don't really want to, and shouldn't be there (I work at a college).
I won a women's scholarship last year (age 61), and am attending the University now.
My loves were (are) dancing, singing, writing and poetry; born with those talents.
I think it is such a shame that love of Country and Service to your country isn't taught in schools anymore.
Smiles, Sassy
Posted by yellowbird01 on April 7, 2009, at 17:35:31
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
I'm in the mood that is telling me I have nothing useful or intelligent to say, so if this sounds as useless as it feels, I apologize. I'll give the question a shot though. :)
I think one of the biggest factors that influence people to go to college (or more often, not go) is the community you live in. Socioeconomic status and expectations within any individuals community in particular. Community can be as large as the city you live in or as small as the people in your home I think.. and it varies by person. I grew up right outside a major city in an upper middle class family. It was expected that I went to college, and I did. I believe 98% or so of my high school class of 400-some students went to college. It was just assumed. But a person who lives in a relatively low SES area, or in a rural area or factory area where kids typically go from high school directly into working in a local factory as all their adult family members do... the expectation is different. It's actually outside the norm for someone to go to college so the social pressure I felt to attend doesnt exist. Even for a student who might want to go to college, the knowledge of how to go about doing so, and finding the money or scholarships to do so, can be very limited and the student ends up not going, even though they had interest, because making it happen would be so difficult. Breaking the mold is hard and I'd imagine some kids probably even get a backlash from families who have a pattern of not attending college... upset about leaving the family and not doing xyz that was expected of them. I'm rambling, but I hope I'm making sense.
As I said, I did go to college and then straight into graduate school. I did fairly well in college. I'd suffered from pretty severe depression in late high school, but it mostly was gone during college. My first year of grad school, it hit again just as hard. I was literally going to class one day, in the psych ward the next, and back to classes the day I got out, a couple times over. I ended up dropping out of my masters program with a semester and a half (and a thesis) left to go. it was the best decision for me. But my point was that at least for me, it just became impossible for me to do anything in school. I remember lots of things I learned in college, but barely anything I learned in grad school. Not sure what my point is with that, but just my personal experience.
Posted by obsidian on April 7, 2009, at 20:28:58
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
I can't seem to stay out of school...I like it so much. School seems to be for me about possibilities (not always true though).
I'm working on going back, studying something else.
Posted by obsidian on April 7, 2009, at 20:44:29
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
> Obviously, current mental health issues can prevent college attendance, but I would like to hear your input based on past experiences, former decision dynamics, or characteristics of people you know such as friends or kids.
but to answer your question....
sincerely at first I didn't think I could afford it...my mentality was to work, work, work
which just leads to more work in jobs that lead nowhere
and depressed? oh god yes.
The amount of financial aid I was eligible for increased after a certain age...you see they considered my mother's income initially (as I lived with her) until I got to say 23??
Sure I didn't pay rent, but she certainly did not pay for school.
Don't worry, I moved out eventually.
but I must add, there are some occupations that offer a good living without college, and perhaps instead some technical training. Also, some people can find jobs, generally with good union support, that offer them some financial stability.I used to feel like college guaranteed me something, especially something relative to the amount of time spent there...I don't think that anymore.
> For 2007, less than 29 percent of the U.S. population had a college degree. The numbers have steadily, but slowly, increased since 1970. For 2000, it was about 26 percent of the population.I'm surprised at that number actually, less than a third??
Posted by garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 20:57:08
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college? » Garnet71, posted by obsidian on April 7, 2009, at 20:44:29
Yes, less than a third..I'm sure about that number, but I have to check and see if that includes vocational/associate degrees because I also saw a U.S. census number at 17% of the U.S. population w/bachelor's degrees and haven't followed up on that yet to clarify; could be that i just made a typo in my draft. However, college enrollment rates are much higher at any given time, but a lot of people drop out-so that's actually the number of degrees held by the population rather than #of college students.
In the fields of science/technology, somewhere bet. 30 and 40 percent of all U.S. Master's degrees now go to foreigners, and over 50 percent of PhDs in science/technology go to foreigners rather than U.S. citizens. Many go back to their home countries. More U.S. students have opted for degrees in the social sciences. I'm not sure about medical degrees.
Posted by garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 21:10:21
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college? » Garnet71, posted by yellowbird01 on April 7, 2009, at 17:35:31
Now why would you say that was useless? That made a lot of sense actually. My Grandmother had an 8th grade education, and was a single mom. My other Grandmother lost her husband at 35, and had schitzophrenia, though she went to various trade schools and programs. No one in my immediate family has ever graduated college, though lots and lots of cousins/aunts/uncles, but yeah, no one told me about college. I thought for years that you had to have money--I didn't know you could borrow it all after grants and scholarships. That's probably why I go around telling lots of people - hey, if you're poor-you can go to college for free. And I do that all the time. Even the clerk girl I sometimes chat with at the convenience store I frequent. lol
Sorry what happened at grad school :(( I'm going through the same thing right now. The last class I attended in grad school this semester before I took leave, I was having a panic attack throughout the entire class-well, it really escalated towards the end; instead of leaving the class, I stayed. But never went back. I went to the foyer after that and completed a paper for my undergrad program that was due that day, on my laptap, and just found out that somehow I got a 100% on that paper. lol
I'm going back to grad school in the summer, and have to finish my undergrad thesis in a few days here...it's hell because it is so boring. After you learn everything about what you've researched, there seems to be little incentive for to put it on paper. The details and structure are too tedious for me.
It's refreshing to hear you are happy with the decision you made at the time. Regrets can really suck.
Posted by obsidian on April 7, 2009, at 21:25:06
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college? » obsidian, posted by garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 20:57:08
yes, I'd be curious to see if that includes associate's degrees
Posted by garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 22:10:30
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to coll, posted by onceupon on April 7, 2009, at 13:11:16
I didn't know the ADA had provisions for college-i thought that only applied to public schools?
FMLA would be nice, but probably not feasible.
Posted by garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 22:11:51
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college? » Garnet71, posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2009, at 14:58:56
"I won a women's scholarship last year (age 61), and am attending the University now."
That's wonderful-congratulations!
"My loves were (are) dancing, singing, writing and poetry; born with those talents."
That's double wonderful-even better. Who needs college if you've got talent?
Posted by Bobby on April 7, 2009, at 23:33:37
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
...unfortunately--I had the most fun of anyone and nothing but memories and photos to show for it. However, I did make some lifelong friends(Over 25 years ago and we're still close)---and you can't put a number sign on that or undervalue it. There are plenty of people who make the big bucks----but don't have a soul that they can count on in a fix.Back then---we planned our studies around the next big party. My wife and I have stressed education since childhood to our kids----they're probably sick of it----but That's become the American way---to have fun today and worry about tomorrow later.
Posted by Dinah on April 8, 2009, at 7:44:03
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
Not everyone wants to go to college. Why should they? There are many honorable career paths that have nothing to do with college. The skilled trades don't require college. Granted, many of them are becoming obsolete. But many never will become obsolete.
I graduated from a high school where it was pretty much expected that we'd all go on to college. Most enrolled and went at least for a while. Not all graduated. Some went back later, when they were more mature, and were going because it was what they wanted for themselves and not what their parents expected of them. Some didn't. Some found college too difficult, or just didn't like it. Many had parents who didn't go to college, and a goodly number followed the same career paths as their parents. I had a fair amount of admiration for the one of my friends who refused to enroll in college. He knew it wasn't for him, and he chose a trade instead. He didn't allow his family's expectations to push him where he didn't want to go. He's fine and happy.
Many of the friends of my youth had parents who, like their parents before them, fished for a living. It's not an easy life, and it's full of hard labor and hot days. But the people who do it tend to love it, and they're perfectly happy. They'd be miserable stuck in an office or stuck in a classroom. The kids who excelled at school and loved school went to college. They were aware of the opportunities. The ones who didn't much excel at school didn't go to college. IMO, they're just as happy as those who did.
My mother's family of siblings and their kids (and now grandkids) is huge. Education is stressed highly, even though my grandparents didn't make it as far as high school, never mind graduate from high school. Most of my aunts and uncles and cousins graduated from college. But the ones who didn't, with a few exceptions, are just as happy and successful as the ones who did, and as my uncle laughingly points out the son who didn't go to college makes a good deal more than his psychologist brother. They're both happy though. That's what counts, isn't it?
And although we like to believe the myth that everyone is created equal, it just isn't so. My brother grew up in the same schools, had access to learning specialists, etc., came from a family where college was expected, and just never did well in school, never liked it, and in all likelihood was not cut out for college. The expectations that my parents had that college was the only possible path only left him feeling like a failure. It wasn't easy for him, but I'm pretty darn proud of him for how hard he works. He went into the military, works very hard, doesn't earn as much per hour as I do, but I really really hope he feels like a success in his career. He's doing something that always was a goal for him.
Asking why people choose not to go to college is like asking why they didn't choose to become artists or salespeople. People are different. Not everyone enjoys the academic life. Not everyone has the ability to excel in academics. It isn't a failure not to go to college. It's a failure not to make the most of your God-given talents. Whatever those talents might be.
As an aside, Louisiana has what's known as the Tops program. If you make a certain grade in high school, and are in the top twentyfive percent of your class (I think it's top 25%, could be wrong), you don't need to worry about money for tuition at a state college. I'm not sure how it's working out, but I know that kids in Louisiana since the Tops program started are well aware that it exists.
And a few of my mothers' family have severe mental illnesses. They didn't go to college, but really that's the least of their problems.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 8, 2009, at 8:01:27
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 22:11:51
Hugs and Love to you, Garnet!
I plan to get my memoir published: Ghost Child to Triumph (from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice), and have almost 16,000 hits on my poetry website.
The University has a Faculty/Staff talent show every year; for 10 minutes, I get to be my real self......dancer.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by B2chica on April 8, 2009, at 8:31:57
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
i have two nephews that decided not to finish college. one was always afraid he just wasn't smart enough, and i think college was hard for him. he found a good management job and is doing very well.
i sometimes wish he could at least finish his degree i think he's literally only one semester away from graduation.
but the job he was at offered him a huge promotion and moving to another state. he took it.
i am still very proud of him, because the decision he made was for him, what he chose to do.my other nephew i'm worried about. he took classes at a community college, did very well. and just decided to stop. he has no goals. he works at a factory at nights, not very good hours. but it gives him time to play his music and be with his friends.
and yes he still lives at home. he's i think 23.
its not that he works in a factory. (his father does too and is a very good man), but that he just doens't have any goals. kinda like he just doesn't care. and that's what worries me.so i guess there are various reasons people dont attend or complete a degree in college.
money, access, family support, academic ability, fear or just plain desire.and for the record, i did horrible in HS, was surprised i was even accepted to the university i attended. went one year then due to money stayed out a year and worked. i also took that year to decide what i really wanted from college.
i knew i was a poor student, i knew i didn't have the money. but the fact was, i was curious and wanted answers, i wanted desperately to learn and i wanted a career. it was and is my desire to learn that has taken me as far as i've come. its just something inside me.
and i think it was obsid that also said he loves school. i feel like i'm perpetually taking classes. of course with some interruption with this stupid bipolar thing.but the longer i was in college, the better academically i became. by my junior year i was getting all A's.
so i hope kids know that just because you are bad in HS, doesn't mean you aren't cut out for college.
Posted by SLS on April 8, 2009, at 13:28:44
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
My sister, whose IQ rivals my own, did not at any point entertain the notion of going to college. Having been a voracious reader, she soon developed a remarkable writing style of her own that now earns her more than $100,000 a year.
I find it annoying whenever someone judges the worth and success of people based on their education. This is due, in large part, to my own inability to remain academically viable because of having contracted a neurological disease. I learned that someone can learn quite a bit about the world by learning from, and about, people. Thomas Jefferson, probably the most academically inclined of the founding fathers, was self-educated. He just loved books.
I have decided that if I should wake up one day being able to read more than a few consecutive paragraphs, my subsequent education will be accomplished by the reading of books rather than studying for tests. It is more important for me to establish financial security at this time in my life. Any desire I have for a more formal learning environment for a particular interest of mine can be afforded me by my local community college without setting my goal as being graduation.
It would have been nice if...
It wasn't.
Life.
- Scott
Posted by B2chica on April 8, 2009, at 13:57:16
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by SLS on April 8, 2009, at 13:28:44
i do Totally agree with Scott about not judging folks based on their education level but i'm going to comment on the opposite end of the spectrum. i've seen some students go through a Ph.D. program that quite frankly were freakin idiots. and can't believe they even made it through.
So just because you HAVE big degrees, i'm sorry but does NOT make you intelligent. i think getting your 'higher degrees' is more about being able to stand the duration Not necessarily a measurement of intelligence. at least from what i've seen in my experience.i see some people as smart and some as intelligent. the smart ones know one thing very well (or so they think).
the intelligent ones know way more than they believe about many genre's of things. and also have the knowing that there is Always more to learn.and i (personally) would MUCH rather hang around with the latter.
my motto (that a very intelligent colleague of mine used to say)
"the more you learn, the less you know"
-when you can see that, you've got it.
Posted by garnet71 on April 8, 2009, at 14:57:54
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
Thanks for all your comments. I saw some emotional reactions and I hope no one was thinking that because I had asked a simple question that I was somehow implying 'everyone' should go to school and if they don't, they must have something wrong with them..geez...I had recent thoughts/regrets wishing I would have never gone back to school...
I was thinking in terms of human capital in the U.S. and science and technology...Not to far from now, more and more people are going to have to get some type of post-high school formal education
I just like to look at trends and try to project what's going to happen in the future, and was in part trying to figure out if college was mader easier to obtain financially in the US, if more people would go or if the same amount of people would go. Trying to see if there were cultural implications behind the decisions too.
Posted by SLS on April 8, 2009, at 15:05:19
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by garnet71 on April 8, 2009, at 14:57:54
> Thanks for all your comments. I saw some emotional reactions and I hope no one was thinking that because I had asked a simple question that I was somehow implying 'everyone' should go to school and if they don't, they must have something wrong with them..geez...I had recent thoughts/regrets wishing I would have never gone back to school...
>
> I was thinking in terms of human capital in the U.S. and science and technology...Not to far from now, more and more people are going to have to get some type of post-high school formal education
>
> I just like to look at trends and try to project what's going to happen in the future, and was in part trying to figure out if college was mader easier to obtain financially in the US, if more people would go or if the same amount of people would go. Trying to see if there were cultural implications behind the decisions too.
Great points and great questions!
- Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on April 8, 2009, at 15:20:16
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college? » garnet71, posted by obsidian on April 7, 2009, at 21:25:06
Here ya go Obsidian:
There are so many ways to find this data, but I just found this cool map that shows % holding bachelor's degree by state in the US; for all the U.S., it is 27% - but that's only for ages 25 and over. It's also an estimate (i think the census is based on about 3 million surveys).
There's a ton of stuff out there on this.
Thanks, Scott, for understanding my questions.
Posted by Garnet71 on April 8, 2009, at 15:26:54
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
Here's a cool reference guide I use to compare diffent demographics bet. the US and other states:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#People
IT's a great little guide. I thought it would have sore educational data in it, but it doesn't except for literacy rates and % GDP spent on education.
Oh-scroll down and look at our debt in relation to our GDP.
Posted by Phillipa on April 9, 2009, at 12:25:31
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
Haven't read the threads but your initial question for me is I got pregnant out of high school married and brought up my kids at the time college for girls wasn't the Donna Reed life was brought up to believe it. When kids grown did go for nursing but 38 at the time of graduation. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2009, at 15:32:39
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if these thoughts have already been stated.
I think the biggest predictor of whether one will go to college or not is whether one or both of ones parents went to college or not.
I think there is more 'upwards mobility' now than there used to be in the sense that it is now more accepted for people to go to college as an 'adult learner' and there are more scholarships and loans etc that make the decision to go to college less dependent on ones parents income.
But perhaps you are interested in why some people decide not to go to college when their parents went to college?
Are you thinking that less people are going to college now than used to go to college in previous generations?
Posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2009, at 19:59:33
In reply to Re: Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to coll, posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2009, at 15:32:39
Alex I'm old I put myself though at age 38 with three kids. All my kids have four year degrees. Love Phillipa
Posted by chumbawumba on May 11, 2009, at 0:50:37
In reply to Why do people in the U.S opt to NOT go to college?, posted by Garnet71 on April 7, 2009, at 12:39:25
Well as measured by IQ 50 percent of the population is below average intelligence. So maybe not everyone is smart enough for college.
Not everyone's got what it takes to be an astronaut, someones got to ask me if I want fries with my burger.
Besides if everyone went to college then wouldn't the value of a college education be greatly diminished in the workforce.
This is the end of the thread.
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