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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
I saw my therapist today. He said that i stepped over the line, that i feel entitled, that i have blocked empathy and that my transference is getting in the way of work, and that i am not at the point right now to do work on all these issues.
The plan now is to space out my sessions to once in two weeks and later--once a month ("diluting transference"). In the interim, i am supposed to look for another therapist (he knows i can't afford it, to which he said, "It is what it is."). And after that? He said, "Then we'll see." I left it at that, and did not push, because this answer at least gives me a tiny hope that he will not drop me.
Honestly, i did not understand a lot of what he was saying to me. When he brought up all those things, i just sat there, acknowledged and admitted to them, but felt he expected me to do something else. "I don't want you to do anything, but i don't think you are actually willing to work on these things." But these things have only come up after that phone message!!! So, let's work on them now!!! No, he thinks i got everything i could from therapy with him, and now i should look for someone else.
I don't get it.
Posted by Looney Tunes on August 17, 2008, at 22:38:03
In reply to Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
Wow neb. This is quite shocking. I re-read your original post about the phone call and then this post.
Lets look at the facts. You made an inappropriate phone call after an inappropriate pick up by his wife. You acknowledged that your phone call was wrong. And now, he wants to dump you. I think he is wrong.
To me, this is something to talk about. Obvious you have feelings about that and it is something to talk about. The transference is the what makes the therapy.You know I ask my T about his family all the time. Sometimes he answers (like yes I have kids) and sometimes we discuss why it is so important that I know. My feelings are always fantasies of what I wish I had. VERY important to talk about. He would not dump me because of transference of this type.
Now, if you threatened him or his family, he should terminate because he is probably frightened and could not work effectively with you. But it does not seem that you did that, right?
Neb, I am really at a loss. I know it is painful, but have you thought about looking for a more psychodynamic therapist or can work with STRONG transference. They are out there and some do sliding scales.
This just does not seem right to me. Transference just does not go away. It is part of everyday life and our relationship patterns.
Posted by backseatdriver on August 18, 2008, at 7:49:58
In reply to Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
Seconding LT ... I think you'd do really well with a good psychodynamic psychotherapist, someone who could create a safe space for your feelings, all of them, and help you work on them inside that space. What worked best, for me, was to do a lot of the ground work with a female psychodynamic psychotherapist, who helped me feel and name my feelings, and gave me the experience of having my feelings validated and contained. The work was slow but not very painful; the transference was maternal and relatively mild. It did not disrupt my life.
Then, after some time off, I switched to a male psychodynamic psychotherapist who is also an MD, and he's working with me on both the therapy and the medication. He is less nurturing and strictly supportive than the first therapist, but he still wants to work within the transference. This is very hard, especially without the support my first T gave me, because the transference is intense, but slowly I'm becoming psychologically more flexible and stronger somehow. The challenge is to stay with, to stay in it, to fight to relationship (as Dinah puts it) if necessary, to deal with conflict and uncertainty.
(FWIW, I have depression with PTSD.)
You might benefit from the same strategy: more nurturance now, to build you up for a different, more challenging kind of therapy later.
Posted by raisinb on August 18, 2008, at 11:12:58
In reply to Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
I am so, so sorry you are having to go through this. When I read your post, I got a stomachache thinking about how painful this rejection must be.
I don't know the full story of what happened between you and your therapist. But it seems that he's been triggered and can't work out the feelings your phone call brought out in him. Sometimes this happens. Sometimes therapists just have weak spots that hurt their clients.
It sounds as if he's trying to make this separation your fault ("you're not willing to work on these issues") when that's obviously not the case, which probably means he's feeling guilty. I hope that you do not take these statements to mean the termination *is* your fault, though. You title your posts "termination because of strong transference," as if your feelings caused it--but they didn't. It is your therapist's weaknesses that caused this.
I know you don't want him to "drop" you, understandably. But as the pain gets better, maybe you should think about whether *you* should drop *him.* He's proven himself a therapist who cannot handle your most intense feelings without blaming and rejecting unjustifiably. If the relationship continues, will you be walking on eggshells in your sessions? I know I would. And that would cause a heck of a lot of repressed anger.
Good luck and try to take care of yourself during this difficult time. I'd encourage you to see other therapists. Lots of them have sliding scales and there are clinics. Often, in these community clinics, there are hidden therapist "gems"--a close friend of mine has one. She's never paid more than five bucks for a therapy session, and she loves her therapist. The good ones *are* out there and you deserve one who will truly help you.
Posted by Tabitha on August 18, 2008, at 11:49:38
In reply to Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
This sounds sooo painful. He just isn't handling this well at all. If he doesn't work with strong transference, let him own that and tell you directly, instead of telling you that you aren't willing to work, and dragging out the termination.
Just the fact that he would say spacing out your sessions will "dilute the transference" tells me he's utterly clueless. IMO it's more likely to make you feel even more desperate and panicky, and hurt like heck.
I think the best thing you could do is get support in ending this relationship. At this point he's just hurting you and giving you a burden to work through with another therapist.
Posted by rskontos on August 18, 2008, at 20:14:16
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » nebulae, posted by Tabitha on August 18, 2008, at 11:49:38
Nebulae,
I agree with everyone. In fact, my t who has been one for a long time, told me that transference is in fact a good thing as long as it is handle appropriately by the therapist. He says it is his responsibility I stay safe within the confines of therapy. Now I haven't let him in to get to that point, that is my own inability to trust anyone. But he never shies away from, instead he says I need to see him as a parental/dad/good figure so that I will learn relationships are good things. I don't see them as such at the present. If for some reason I developed a strong transference I could never see him running from it, I see him as being capable to deal with it the way a good therapist should and needs to.
I question the way yours is handling you and perhaps he is causing more pain than is necessary and I think you might need to listen to everyone else and look for someone that has the professional skills to work with transference. It is something that often happens and isn't a bad thing.
take care, and I am sorry you are hurting when you should not be.
rsk
Posted by nebulae on August 18, 2008, at 22:02:06
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transfer, posted by backseatdriver on August 18, 2008, at 7:49:58
Backseatdriver,
He uses different approaches, including psychodynamic.
And you know, he said the exact same thing you did, that maybe i need someone who wouldn't be as pushy as he is, since i am not ready for this right now.
But the thing is, i've been through his being very cold and direct and pushy, i've been in the "thick" of therapy already, so i believe i AM ready for another round if it needs to be this way. But he says that i am not ready.
And he just brought up a whole bunch of issues, which he says, he's seen all along, and he just dumped them on me, and did not attempt to kind of lead through them, just sat there, and i didn't know what to do, except admitting to them. It's like he just gave me an agenda to look at with my next therapist, but not with him.
I cannot believe i am loosing this relationship. I feel he is undoing what has been accomplished. How can i trust anyone, if this beautiful relationship ends this way. I thought this man will be my guide in this life for many more years. He is an extremely intelligent, experienced, wise and good man. I thought he cared about me and was interested in supporting me. This is crazy.
Posted by nebulae on August 18, 2008, at 22:15:25
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transfer » nebulae, posted by raisinb on August 18, 2008, at 11:12:58
Raisinb,
Thanks so much for your reply. I don't know what's going on. I tried to ask him that maybe he overreacted, but you can't win any argument with him, he kept saying all those things i already mentioned.
I agree on the point about walking on eggshells and being resentful. It's also hard to see myself going through these last sessions, knowing that the full trust isn't there anymore, that this relationship is coming to an end. So why invest?
What also bothers me, is why he never mentioned or pointed out any of those bad things he now says he had noticed long time ago? Why did they come up for the first time at the last session? He also said that my transference was at times bordering on inappropriate. So why did he not warn me and set boundaries then and there??? Instead, he let it evolve into this angry message i left him, and now he is terminating!
Posted by nebulae on August 18, 2008, at 22:20:15
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transfer, posted by rskontos on August 18, 2008, at 20:14:16
rskontos,
Thank you!
And yes, transference is a good thing in therapy, but i guess, up to a certain point. I just wish i had been told beforehand up to what point it is appropriate/tolerable/workable.
Posted by nebulae on August 18, 2008, at 22:27:03
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by Looney Tunes on August 17, 2008, at 22:38:03
True, i did not threaten him or his family.
He is a psychodynamic therapist, and is supposed to be very experienced with transference.
At this point, i have no clue what to think about any of this. This is a relationship unlike any in my life, even the very best ones. When such a relationship ends this crazy way, you don't know what else is left to believe in.
Posted by nebulae on August 18, 2008, at 22:32:19
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » nebulae, posted by Tabitha on August 18, 2008, at 11:49:38
I never thought that i'd be one of those clients that need to see another therapist because of a previous one.
I want to hold on to him so desperately. Not even as much to him, as to my faith that wonderful, loving, supportive people do exist, and relationships with them are entirely possible. But all i see right now is this relationship that gave me hope, falling apart.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on August 19, 2008, at 12:40:20
In reply to Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
Hi Nebulae,
I read your earlier threads too, and I agree what others have written in response. The way your T is handling this sounds most unprofessional. This kind of occurrence is a client's worst nightmare. You trust someone deeply, you learn to open up and share very intimate things and then they all of a sudden pull the carpet from under your feet.
You don't deserve this reaction. You left him a phone message that might have upset him - that's not something to terminate someone over. He's acting on his counter-transference it seems. He's having a strong reaction, and he should be seeking supervision to deal with his response so that he can continue to work with you through your transference. Instead he's acting on the transference and doing you a lot of harm. This isn't how it should be done.
I don't know what to suggest. It would be a good thing for him to seek supervision about what's happened - that's what he should be doing rather than forcing termination. I think his plan to taper off contact with you, will cause you unnecessary pain. I would immediately search for another therapist, one with a sliding scale. I would also ask your present therapist whether you can together have a consultation with a second therapist regarding the rupture and his choice of actions.
I really feel for you.
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on August 19, 2008, at 14:09:37
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transfer » nebulae, posted by Wittgensteinz on August 19, 2008, at 12:40:20
The most constructive thing I can suggest, if you feel you can't leave this T, is to try to find out more clearly, and in more detail-- or in any way you can-- what your T sees as your not being able, or willing, to work in therapy.
Whatever you understand now, there must be more to it. You say that your T is very experienced and that your relationship was going really well. Yet he says that there are many things over a long period that make him feel that you're not able to work on the issues that are getting in the way. Clearly, you and he are not communicating well-- something is missing. You might be able to learn more about what's at stake for him, and how you might learn to hear better whatever perspective he has that led him to think termination was necessary.
I hope you can make some sort of progress and stay in the relationship if that's what you need.
Nadezda
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 19:20:07
In reply to Update: Termination because of strong transference, posted by nebulae on August 17, 2008, at 21:59:57
This sounds like cw's behaviour, but Exactly, almost to the T (hahahahaha).
I am an angry woman.
I know what was right, and what was wrong.
What is right, and what Is Wrong.
I remember seeing a counsellor and talking about my transference with him, and talking about his phoning me at home on a Sunday morning to tell me he couldn't see me anymore, it was the way I was, and the way he was, it wouldn't work, he couldn't see me anymore. But before that, the way he encouraged and flirted with the transference without really knowing what he was doing, being caught blind-sided because he was playing a flirtation with himself. Playing games. Not understanding the pain and the anguish of being BPD, and abandoned, and lost. Completely lost, in the world.
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 19:21:02
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » Tabitha, posted by nebulae on August 18, 2008, at 22:32:19
It was never a relationship on his part. He is cold, heartless, and one day, may he be haunted as well.
Posted by nebulae on August 23, 2008, at 20:56:39
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » nebulae, posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 19:21:02
Susan, what happened? How was he flirting with your transference? What happened before he called in and terminated?
Posted by susan47 on August 24, 2008, at 15:59:23
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » susan47, posted by nebulae on August 23, 2008, at 20:56:39
First of all, the way he looked at me. Obviously noticing a new hairstyle. I dressed to impress once; the next appointment, he was dressed to impress. I played on things like that. I flirted with it because I wanted to see if I was making an impact, and if I was, I needed to know what that impact was. I told him I was smoking mj before I came to see him, actually I told him I was eating it, I didn't smoke it, but quickly that turned to smoking it as well, then I just stopped eating it and became an avid smoker. He never mentioned my eating mj, or getting stoned before I came to see him, as any sort of problem at all. He was accepting. He was a good therapist, I'm convinced of it. But somehow along the line, he said it was okay for me to phone him between appointments, because I had said I had a crush on him and felt uncomfortable and couldn't tell him the things I wanted to tell him during appointments.
So this was okay, for a while.
And I talked a lot, endlessly nonstop, my life was fascinating, I was happy for the first time in years, when I was able to express all my sorrow over my failed marriage, over my children's illnesses, my failed relationship with my eldest child who had just left for university at 17 because he couldn't stand the atmosphere at home anymore. I lived in such an oppresive home, and I helped to make it that way, and when I phoned my ex-T, the atmosphere became so much lighter suddenly, I felt like I was sharing a burden.
And I think he was concerned, what to do, how to make this patient go away.
He tried to stop seeing me, by telling me he was too busy to see me for two weeks he was all booked up, but I persisted to the third week, and it got to where I was seeing him once every three-four weeks but phoning him every f*ck*ng day, every day I think, to find the relief, I was going to leave my husband, and he waited until I left my husband and was out on my own for about three months when he terminated me.
He didn't understand he was truly terminating what seemed like my life's blood, and still does.
I don't know if at this point I'll ever get over the grief I still carry around.
Do you know how embarrassing this is to tell to anyone?
Do you know how hard something like this is to get over?
Posted by susan47 on August 24, 2008, at 16:09:03
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » susan47, posted by nebulae on August 23, 2008, at 20:56:39
I am borderline, I just had a Dx recently, and I GAVE IT TO MYSELF (The Dx) and the psychs at the hospital, my family doctor, and the therapist I am now seeing all agree that yes, I am borderline. I'm 51 years old. This should never have been allowed to happen, my ex-T, if he really is a good therapist, should have known almost right away, it isn't something a person can hide, let's be honest here.
In fact, I am surprised I had to Dx myself, I am surprised no one wants to help someone like me, that I am see as just so much trash my ex-T could take to the curb.
Posted by susan47 on August 24, 2008, at 16:25:49
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » nebulae, posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 19:20:07
When I told him I felt so sorry for my ex-T:
"You're borderline, you've been going through all this, and you feel sorry for HIM????"
But it's impossible not to have feelings, because the feelings I Have about my own life and my own self are so overwhelming, it's hard not to cry, and not to share my feelings. Sharing my feelings helps me to release them. I feel so strongly and I didn't know that was the biggest obstacle in my life, it just felt like I needed relief from the feelings. But in the end I could see a person getting overwhelmed of course, the violations to the guidelines were just too severe. Still, it hurts like nothing ever has. And this is what I now have to hurdle.
Posted by susan47 on August 24, 2008, at 16:28:28
In reply to The Counsellor Said, posted by susan47 on August 24, 2008, at 16:25:49
I'm being driven crazy and triggered by everything, it's not just feelings of failure, it's feelings about everything I read and see and hear and experience. The feelings have always been so overwhelming and they're mostly just bad feelings, if they were good feelings that would be another thing entirely. I think. I don't know. Maybe I would've been like the Crocodile Hunter. He had a lot of really good feelings, and he shared them all over the place.
Posted by nebulae on August 25, 2008, at 20:20:55
In reply to And Now, posted by susan47 on August 24, 2008, at 16:28:28
Susan, this sounds just awful... I know that therapy is supposed to be painful at certain times, but stories like these make you wonder. I hope you will eventually get rid of this pain.
Nebulae.
Posted by susan47 on August 26, 2008, at 11:27:39
In reply to Re: And Now » susan47, posted by nebulae on August 25, 2008, at 20:20:55
He phoned me on Sunday morning I think it was in July or maybe August. He said "Your transference is too strong. I can't see you anymore. It's the way you are, the way I am, it won't work" and I said "That's okay, I understand. Don't worry about it." Twenty minutes later, maybe even ten, I called his office phone completely undone, completely unwrought, completely over the top and unremitting about how awful a person I am, how horrible. I was calling back in February I'm sure of that same year saying how this transference I was experiencing was really sick, it was wrong, and I'd told him I was in love with him back in his office I think around September. I'd left my husband in February (the wrong thing to do at the time, as I completely ended the next two years on the phone to my ex-T's answering machine, and crazy here on Babble as well).
I have been through hell, I have put myself there without realizing or wanting it, and my ex-T knew it all the time and was accessory to it and fearful of doing anything positive to change it.
I almost died.
I was suicidal.
I was in hospital.
I lived a nightmare.
I still live it.
I am heavily addicted to marihuana.(Although some "experts" would say, falsely so, that mj is not addcting .. IT IS.)
I am learning to want to live.
Please help me.
Susan
Posted by sassyfrancesca on August 29, 2008, at 8:59:25
In reply to Re: And Now, posted by susan47 on August 26, 2008, at 11:27:39
(((Susan))): I am SO sorry. What he did was UNETHICAL.......Good t's are trained to understand transference and attachments. It is the "nature of the beast"
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on him. He knew/knows better. From my research and understanding the ONLY reason a t should send you away (abandon you) is if you are a threat to him, etc., etc....
A t is NOT supposed to abandon you. Again, that is UNETHICAL, unless he/they have a good professional reason.
I am SO sorry; he doesnt' sound like he knew what he was doing. Unfortunately, when that happens, the client pays the price.
Can you see someone else? Did he give you a referral (they are supposed to do that).
Love, Alice
Posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:59:13
In reply to Re: Update: Termination because of strong transference » nebulae, posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 19:21:02
> It was never a relationship on his part. He is cold, heartless, and one day, may he be haunted as well.
I take that back. If he is haunted, nothing will be set right. Nobody, no one, can be haunted.
I have to heal this with myself.
I have to heal this with him.
But how?
It can't be done.
This is the end of the thread.
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