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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 21:13:39
In reply to Re: Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by muffled on July 15, 2008, at 18:33:05
> Glad you didn't have to use any of your takedown training on him.It was at the forefront of my mind, believe me.
> *well FWIW I have this angst too. I have a male child, it can be disturbing sometimes.Awww, that sounds very tricky (((((muffled's kiddo, kiddo's momma))))
>
> > So, T has an interesting theory, no doubt with strong psychodynamic undercurrents. Here's his formulation of my psychological delimma:
> >
> > Trauma history leads to fear of men, but ALSO (here's where it gets interesting) a fear of my own power and sexuality. In my current interactions (face to face interviews with men, or leading tours or such), there are two parties, both with sexual energies. I am one of them, the man is the other. I try to diffuse the sexual charge by compartmentalizing my own sexuality and ignoring the man's power, to the extent that I am capable. (can you imagine how much it took to stay 'present' in this discussion? This is SO hard for me). That I can begin to engage in normal social interactions by acknowledging and experiencing my own sexuality. That I need to understand that most men have innocent intentions and boundaries that do not permit liasons.
>
> *OK ???????????????????????????????????
> I admire you sticking with this convo, and with a man no less. llurpygirl, you got SERIOUS guts.
thank you muffy, it means a lot to hear that.
> But WTF??? I just bury any sexuality for ther most part cuz WTF?? SEX goto do w/ANYthing ANYways??? Makes me SO pissy mad, everything sex sex sex ...WTF???? ARRRGGGHHH.
you make me chuckle. I'm kinda like that, but obviously h doesn't appreciate the status quo, and I'm starting to feel some... pressure. I guess it all comes out in therapy, huh?
>
> > At this point, I attempted to wrap up our session, but he refused to grab his planner (which is his signal that the session is over), and agonizing "ums" "i don't knows" and mumblings interupted long silences. T repeating himself, Llurpsie trying hard to keep it together and not bolt out of the room. DanGeR going off, and panic rising in my throat.
>
> *You are nice to your T. I can get kinda cheezy if my T psissing me, mind you...I got a female T. I wouldn't have a male T. Did your T do ANYthing to assist in calming you??? Was he aware of your intense discomfort?I know he was aware of it. we digressed for about 5 minutes to take some of the weight off of it. Then I remarked that I would have a lot to think about, and he said- what? about the sex stuff? at which point we summarized the main stuff, and then he made me laugh at myself. T's really good at making me laugh. I laugh HARD at least 5x per session- sometimes I crack him up too. Humor is good to diffuse tension.
>
> > Do you guys get into any of this stuff with your T's? I feel like such a freak. T had this amused look on his face at the end, and was telling me that I am a very interesting young woman to work with. I asked him if he meant that in a pejorative sense (my self-esteem needed a little bolstering at this point), and he smiled more and said that I am a very interesting patient, and that I was complicated. I guess that's a compliment coming from him.
>
> *Well your responses are not freaky thats for sure IMHO...but then...mebbe *I* kinda a freak myself....hmmmm!
> Your T seems to be making things complicated if you ask me.
> Wassup w/all this sexuality sh*t???
I think he's trying to draw a link between me having fear of men, me having aversion to sex, me having very restrained emotional range. so? I dunno. I kind of like his theory, because it makes me squirm, and I usually don't squirm like that unless it's mostly true.> Sorry, sore spot for me.
> I not talk bout this stuff yet. NewT wants to figger other stuff first.
yep, gotta have priorities
> You a brave one Llurpster I'll give you that.
> Seems to me that you paranoid of men cuz men who SHOULD have protected you, didn't. DUHHHH, so NO WONDER you scared.
> So now guess you goto understand that ALL men won't hurt you.
> I try and look at men being nice and say to myself, see, the just PEOPLE who happen to be male, but they just like anybody, they not bad just cuz they got the bad parts that hurt, they just PEOPLE like females too. Some people. male or female ARE bad, but MOST are not. We just gonna have to try and trust our instincts.
> Think there's something that we goto deal with the rage bout it all too....so that we don't keep having the desire to go round knackering guys we might perceive to be bad, even if we don't do it, but its not nice thots.
not exactly sure what "knackering" is, but it sounds like fun? I dunno. lol. guys are people too. it's so hard, because intellectually, I hate to think of myself as being sexist, but my gut is very sexist. :(> OK I crazy, I admit it. Had T today, not earl gret but DD Tea, HA.
> Take care Llurps,
> M
>
>DD tea? hot or iced? 3 splenda with mine, please, or honey, whatever you got.
(((((muff)))))) thnks for your feedback
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 21:22:53
In reply to goodness » llurpsienoodle, posted by raisinb on July 15, 2008, at 19:57:50
> I can't imagine having that discussion with my female therapist (of course, ever since I told her I wanted to sleep with her...), much less a male therapist! That took a lot of courage on both your parts.
I've been seeing him for about a year now, and it DID take a lot of courage, for him to listen to it and avoid the temptation of just shifting the focus onto the traumatic stuff, instead of staying with my current psychological reactions.
>
> <<Trauma history leads to fear of men, but ALSO (here's where it gets interesting) a fear of my own power and sexuality. In my current interactions (face to face interviews with men, or leading tours or such), there are two parties, both with sexual energies. I am one of them, the man is the other. I try to diffuse the sexual charge by compartmentalizing my own sexuality and ignoring the man's power, to the extent that I am capable. (can you imagine how much it took to stay 'present' in this discussion? This is SO hard for me). That I can begin to engage in normal social interactions by acknowledging and experiencing my own sexuality. That I need to understand that most men have innocent intentions and boundaries that do not permit liasons.>>
>> I'm sure your therapist knows what he is talking about. Some of it doesn't seem logical to me (i.e., how can experiencing your own sexuality lead to more normal social interactions? and how does feeling more sexual yourself enable you to see how men aren't as sexual as you think?)
>A little bit of context, since I didn't really provide much! -- I have been having problems "connecting" with people except on an intellectual level. I am profoundly uncomfortable with being seen as "attractive", and frequently dress all sloppy so that I won't give off any "sexual vibes" as T would say. T thinks it's a strategy that I developed to have "safe" relationships with men-- to compartmentalize myself in that way.
> But I think learning to love your own sexuality is always a valid goal. Most of us--not just women, and not just people with trauma histories--haven't achieved that.
>
> I have to agree with muffled a little bit, though--psychodynamic therapists are sometimes a little too focused on sex, to the exclusion of all the complex emotional, childlike feelings that attend the physical urges. It is possible that there are lots of things you fear from men, besides sex (this is just speculation of course).
>oh, there ARE many things- you are so right. Sex is intimidating and overwhelming, but I grew up with so much physical violence that I am much more fluent in THAT language.
> Anyway, kudos to you for the work you are doing! Discussing intimate sexual details with a male therapist? You should buy yourself a Mercedes or something.
I'm more of a beemie girl *wink*
-Ll
p.s. thank you so much for your ideas-- explaining this stuff helps me sort things out in my own mind.
Posted by Looney Tunes on July 15, 2008, at 22:02:51
In reply to Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 17:09:25
Woa. I can not even go anywhere near that topic with male or female therapist. I am still in the "I am a plant and I bud," mode.
The closest I get is talking about "boys being cute." SO mature. Let's try pre-teenage feelings.
I give you alot of credit. My old T always said that you had to face these issues to "heal." She was a psychodynamic, but I think for people who have experienced abuse, it has to be discussed to be able to move forward into having a normal and healthy sexual life.
But what do I know...I am just a plant.....
Posted by Lemonaide on July 15, 2008, at 22:15:27
In reply to Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 17:09:25
I don't know how you could take those late night buses, it scared me because I felt out of place and vulnerable of anyone on that bus except you of course.
For me, I trust men more than women, but like you I am sure it had to do with what sex my abuser was. My mom was scary, she seems so normal at times but yet when she got that look in her eye, it frightened me, didn't know what to expect.
Most of the men I have met seem very upfront about how they feel, I find it hard to read women.
You are very brave for seeing a male therapist.I am scared of one nationality of men, that seem attracted to me, because I have some common features like their nationality, and they intimidate me because they look at you very strongly and bold. I am not sure where that fear comes from. Is it all kinds of men, or just a certain type? such as older, younger, etc.?
Posted by Phillipa on July 16, 2008, at 0:38:49
In reply to Re: Scared of men *triggers* long » llurpsienoodle, posted by Lemonaide on July 15, 2008, at 22:15:27
Could be why I like and always have liked men more than women for me it was verbal abuse. Now I'm thinking. Love Phillipa
Posted by chiron on July 16, 2008, at 17:51:22
In reply to Re: goodness » raisinb, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 21:22:53
I actually went to a female therapist to try an deal with my men issues (that all they want is sex). She said she enjoyed talking to me but she didn't feel like she was helping.
Yesterday, I went to a new doc. I told him I had man issues (related to sex), and his response was, but it's such a wonderful thing. He thinks I have an attachment disorder.
Fu** him
Posted by Daisym on July 17, 2008, at 1:02:47
In reply to Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 17:09:25
I suppose it is "clinically significant" or whatever.
Don't you just hate it when you know those phrases...and they apply to you?!
It makes perfect sense to me that you would be afraid of your own sexual power. Most kids believe that they caused their abuse in some way - that they had the power to turn someone they loved "bad." But they didn't know exactly how - or how to control it. So as adults, those feelings still live in us. If we are responded to by men - even easy, flirty, kinds of responses, those old feelings get activated. So we go into shut down mode - freezing. And the smaller we feel, the bigger and more powerful men feel. No wonder you get freaked out.
Sometimes I ask myself, "who do you think you are that you think you can control the universe?" That sometimes works to remind myself that I'm not that powerful. But most of the time I'm caught in the fear reaction before I realize what is happening.
Don't you wish you could be comfortable about all of this? I can talk to my therapist about sex, although the questions sometimes make me blush. Recently, about sex: "so what do you like? What helps you relax and what feels good?" Um...flannel nightgowns?
Good work staying with the discussion.
Posted by muffled on July 17, 2008, at 9:19:18
In reply to Re: Scared of men *triggers* long » llurpsienoodle, posted by Daisym on July 17, 2008, at 1:02:47
whoah weird. I allus was afraid of s*x.
But I KNEW if I wanted, I could make ANY man have sex w/me, that men were powerless to control their urge to have s*x. It made me feel powerful maybe? I dunno. I know its illogical, but I got a part that still beleives that. Cept now I say that a good looking person (no longer my fat OLD self) could make ANY man stray if she wanted to.
ANY.
This isn't true right?
I am not sure.
I grew up in a family of all girls. Dad was the only male in the house. Even the dog was female!, AND the cat I think! ;-)
M
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 9:30:12
In reply to Re: Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by muffled on July 17, 2008, at 9:19:18
I don't think so.
No one can make anyone do something else. You could tempt them mightily. Whether they gave into the temptation was up to them.
Men can be pretty darn nice and decent. Even the ones who aren't Ken dolls. It all depends on the man. They aren't all alike any more than women are all alike.
That being said, I think any woman who isn't cautious when alone with a strange man off the street isn't showing enough survival instinct. I used to work somewhere where the standard was to have one or two people alone in the place late at night. I was often mightily wary. I also think that a museum should have security devices in place for their employees, male or female. Panic buttons for them to push that will turn on all sorts of very loud alarms.
Posted by Sigismund on July 17, 2008, at 20:10:48
In reply to Re: Scared of men *triggers* long » muffled, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2008, at 9:30:12
>I got a part that still beleives that. Cept now I say that a good looking person (no longer my fat OLD self) could make ANY man stray if she wanted to.
ANY.
This isn't true right?
No, of course it's not true.I'm not sure why.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 17, 2008, at 21:58:09
In reply to Re: Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by Sigismund on July 17, 2008, at 20:10:48
Tomorrow I go in for my follow-up session. I've been thinking a LOT about your thoughtful replies. I think it's been an interesting thread for hearing other folks' experiences of the other sex, and sex, and therapy. I will let you know how it goes. At least this time I have the weekend to allow my body & mind to return to equilibrium, rather than having to hop off to work right away.
-Ll
Scared (still-- what's new)
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 18, 2008, at 15:47:16
In reply to Scared of men *triggers* long, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 15, 2008, at 17:09:25
Today T said- there is one category of person that is simply not sexual, and never will be. I don't think you are in that category (etc. I was very embarrassed). Suggested that I experiment with more revealing clothing, and to take notes on how I feel. Dear GOD.
Cleavage
Behavioral
Therapy
Posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2008, at 19:31:20
In reply to Oh, it gets better cleavage behavioral therapy » llurpsienoodle, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 18, 2008, at 15:47:16
Li got great boobs? If so show them off!!!! Love Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 20:34:31
In reply to Oh, it gets better cleavage behavioral therapy » llurpsienoodle, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 18, 2008, at 15:47:16
I'd leave that CBT well alone.
Young women look very good in shirts and jeans.
When I was at university everyone thought that Barbie was the devil.
Now that we have Bratz dolls (for 3 year olds) wearing G strings so that the brain (of the 3yo)can be moulded into an appropriate consumption pattern. Barbie was a rocket scientist. The Bratz dolls become fashion designers and hang around malls. Well, each to his own, maybe there are good malls someplace (I guess, still, beam me up.)
And this means the whole society, from little kids to old people has been sexualised, and that space for kids, which wasn't that great (but it was a space), has been privatised.
Thus we have the paedophile scapegoating thing. It was always there of course. Kids were once 'interfered with'. It's not a phrase one hears these days.
Parents used to kick their kids out of the house and tell them to play outside all day too.
Posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2008, at 21:16:37
In reply to Re: Oh, it gets better cleavage behavioral therapy » llurpsienoodle, posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 20:34:31
Sigi you remember that too? Guess we're just old at least I am. Love PJ
Posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 21:24:50
In reply to Re: Oh, it gets better cleavage behavioral therapy » Sigismund, posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2008, at 21:16:37
Barbie seems to have aged gracefully, PJ.
I can't believe how scornful we were.
My daughter is doing this for Society and Culture, and there has been a Senate enquiry into sexualisation of young children, about which it can/will do nothing.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 7:58:14
In reply to Re: Oh, it gets better cleavage behavioral therapy » Phillipa, posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 21:24:50
No doubt I look good in jeans and a T-shirt, but I'm no three-year-old. The idea is to accept the fact that I am a grown woman with certain sexual urges, however buried in shame and disgust they may be. I cloak myself in blubber and messy hair to disguise myself.
Unfortunately I was interfered with.
-Ll
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 9:33:03
In reply to Re: Oh, it gets better cleavage behavioral therapy » Phillipa, posted by Sigismund on July 18, 2008, at 21:24:50
Foregoing the usual Prada glasses in favor of contact lenses and Dolce Gabbana shades
Foregoing the usual Old Navy tshirt in favor of fitted Diesel tshirt.
I am a product of my consumptive upbringing.
One time I wore this shirt and a woman hit on me. It was interesting and unexpected.
I'm off to the outlet malls to buy some summer skirts.
So what if I wear them to therapy and my T notices and has a slight smile on his face. I would no doubt blush uncontrollably and be VERY uncomfortable. In the past I have deliberately shown up for therapy very disheveled.
Catch 22.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 9:57:21
In reply to start first with the eyelashes, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 9:33:03
Holy guacamole.
Llurpsie is wearing a pink dress.
and no nerdly glasses.
Help.
(it's my sister-in-law's influence-- she's visiting us for the foreseeable future. she's kind of a princess)
-Ll
Posted by raisinb on July 19, 2008, at 12:05:31
In reply to jumping into the deep end. sundress » llurpsienoodle, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 9:57:21
Next thing we'll see you on America's Next Top Model! :)
Posted by Sigismund on July 19, 2008, at 17:33:35
In reply to start first with the eyelashes, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 9:33:03
>One time I wore this shirt and a woman hit on me. It was interesting and unexpected.
See. There's something to be said for it.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 20, 2008, at 7:19:09
In reply to jumping into the deep end. sundress » llurpsienoodle, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 9:57:21
It sure feels like it. And yet I persevere. I woke up at 6 am and sewed a batik skirt. A-line, with flat felled seams. I'm very proud of the seams, which gives me more courage to wear the skirt.
In chat last night I was reminiscing about my short and colorful time dating before I got married. I realized that I truly had some freaky dates and that any real chance of a relationship I had was compromised by my protective armor of thorns "don't get too close, because I WILL hurt you".
Talk about compartmentalizing my sexuality. Geez. I had a sleepover buddy in college. hetero man. It never once occurred to me to take advantage of the situation. I remained untethered.
In college I used to dress wearing much more revealing clothing. I was also obsessed with exercise and diet and such. There was always this horrible thing going on inside though. I would get close to being at my goal weight, and I would freak out and binge, because I felt almost naked walking around without my protective blubber. Around the same time I would switch abruptly from sundresses to bathrobes. or something like that.
Well, I ramble.
The real reason for my post is this:
I usually like to update T on my progress or lack of progress at the beginning of the session. How the hell do I report progress to T about this stuff, without seeming like I'm flirting with him. Hey, T-- look at me, I feel sexy, and I'm showing off my legs to prove it. WTF? is he supposed to be happy for me or something. What if he chooses to comment on the hypothetical outfit. I would be mortified.
I suppose the only way to work through the mortification is by talking about it. dammit.
-Ll
Posted by Lemonaide on July 21, 2008, at 18:06:00
In reply to Is it reckless to wear a skirt? » llurpsienoodle, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 20, 2008, at 7:19:09
If you are doing it for own progress and for yourself, it won't matter how T sees the new clothes.
I still don't see how dressing more revealing with help with your fear of men. Maybe I am old fashion, but I don't see the correlation between self esteem and revealing clothing. It seems kinda like your T has this view that women should be "seen" to have self confidence. Or perhaps I don't have the whole story.
Because while this might work when you are still young, but what do you do when you are 40? I feel self esteem has to come from within yourself on how you feel about you regardless of your physical presence. This is something I am working on in therapy. That in the end, it doesn't matter what others think of you to make you have good self esteem.
How you dress is only secondary to that. It reminds me of rich people who think they have to have designer clothes, expensive cars, etc. to feel good about themselves. Eventually it doesn't work.
I don't know maybe I am just older and don't see the superficial stuff people have or are wearing as who they really are.
My T would question why the need to cover up but also would go into the issue of why you feel afraid of men. Wearing more revealing clothing without working through this issue completely can be risky.
What if you are overcompensating to show improvement before working out that issue. That could put you in a more dangerous situation with men. It just seems like he is putting the cart in front of the horse. But like always I could be wrong, maybe I just understand what he is trying to do.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 21, 2008, at 20:16:40
In reply to Re: Is it reckless to wear a skirt?, posted by Lemonaide on July 21, 2008, at 18:06:00
Hi Lemona,
Thanks for your thoughtful postI guess the issue is that I associate men looking at me with bad things happening to me. Yep, we're working on feeling safe in safe situations-- the therapy office being a prime example. I have difficulty at times with tolerating my own sexuality. It's not so much of a self-esteem issue. In a world of only women, I'd be smashing every day. But in the real world, 50% of folks have a Y chromosome. It's THEIR attention that I have trouble with. Because their attention brings out a part of me (the part that is sexy) that I'm not entirely comfy with.
Bringing out my inner sexy beast is something that I have to LEARN how to do. Tolerating the attention it may draw is something I have to get used to.
Psychologically, it's kind of a desensitization thing.
Am I leaping ahead too quickly? oh, probably. maybe it's more like flooding than a gradual desensitization.
-Ll
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 22, 2008, at 13:08:33
In reply to Re: Is it reckless to wear a skirt? » Lemonaide, posted by llurpsienoodle on July 21, 2008, at 20:16:40
I always dress impeccably, but make sure some cleavage is showing (only place I do that is in therapy, LOL).....I love to dress up, and always wear skirts; killer legs ya know.
I am 61, but look 41 and feel 18. I love to wear a suit with a sexy lacy thing underneath. Very come hither, LOL, LOL...I always wear high heels and eyelashes.....
But then; been trying to tempt my t for years (long story behind that)......
Naughty me, Sassy
This is the end of the thread.
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