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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on September 3, 2007, at 12:13:44
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Quintal, posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 11:42:43
I still think it's better to speak to
a compassionate relative who has known
you and your history, or a good friend,
professor or even priest or rabbi, if you are religious.
Human conflicts are common to all, and unless
there is a medical problem, which a therapist
may not recognize or admit to or be able to
treat for that matter, and would require
a dr., you are better off without a T, imho.Squiggles
Posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 12:29:38
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Maria01, posted by Squiggles on September 3, 2007, at 12:13:44
That's OK to a point, but a good T can be more objective. Sometimes our friends and loved ones can't be objective and it can really cloud their perspective. Relatives are not objective either, and in the case of a lot of people here, are not a good source of feedback/comfort, etc. A good, well-trained, mentally fit T can be an asset. The key is finding a competent T. Dr's are too darn busy, and can't address a lot of serious problems in the space of their 15-minute office visits, and many of them have little or no training in active listening and other skills that could help. Their main goal is to treat a physical ailment and move on. A good doc, however, will refer a patient to a T if they feel the patient would benefit. Doesn't happen too often, though.
I've lost a lot of respect for the counseling/psychology profession, but there are good T's out there that can of huge benefit to people who may not have the options you suggested.
I'm definitely not religious, so a clery member/rabbi would be pretty far out of the question for me and others like myself who are not religious or even spiritual.
Posted by Squiggles on September 3, 2007, at 13:12:38
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Squiggles, posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 12:29:38
Actually, i think that someone who knows
you for a long time has the insight and
historical knowledge to be far more objective.
Even in medical matters, such as a gallbladder
problem objectivity is more likely if the
doctor knows your gastrointestinal history.
The objectivity that you may be referring to
is the objectivity of textbook and case observations in their training, but not in the personal knowledge and understanding of your situation.Like Bertrand Russell said, there is knowledge by proposition and knowledge by acquaintance; and in the case of analyzing personal problems, acquaintnce trumps propositions.
Squiggles
Posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 13:36:39
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Maria01, posted by Squiggles on September 3, 2007, at 13:12:38
"Like Bertrand Russell said, there is knowledge by proposition and knowledge by acquaintance; and in the case of analyzing personal problems, acquaintnce trumps propositions."
Not always...if you have been a regular member of this board, you will see that for a lot of the posters/commenters family members/clergy may be at the root of what they are facing. Clergy members alone have been guilty of abuses of power, based on their knowledge and history with the parishioners...the Catholic church is a prime example with the high rates of priests sexually abusing young people within their flock, many of whomm are now adults still coping with the aftereffects of CSA at the hands of a "trusted member of the family"
Some people may lack the strong social network that provides close, loving friendships, or may be bound by personal or cultural mores that inhibit confiding in one's friends.
If you are fortunage enough to have a strong network of friends, etc., and don't see the need for a T, that's awesome..rock on. For many, many people on this board and in real life, that isn't the case. The key for people in those situations is to find a mentally fit, competent T until such networks can be discovered or created. Even then, a good T would come in handy. If you are so fortunate as to not need or want to see a T, I have to ask: Why are you on this board? Just askin'
Posted by Squiggles on September 3, 2007, at 14:01:16
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers*, posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 13:36:39
Both relatives and church people are capable
of abuse - what the statistic are i don't know;
but i would bet on relatives being responsible
for greater abuse.I meant that if you *can* speak to someone close
it would better than speaking to a stranger.Why am i here? i have seen some posts that interested me, and i am spying.:-)
Squiggles
Posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:40:18
In reply to Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers*, posted by Quintal on September 3, 2007, at 4:34:48
I have to say this whole thread makes me really uncomfortable--hurt and angry perhaps.
Part of the reason is that once upon a time I was diagnosed as BPD and went through intensive inpatient treatment so that by the time I completed treatment at one of the best private hospitals in the country, I was not considered BPD anymore.
Also, I have csa issues that I don't let interfere with my work and never have. If they did, I would take a LOA. So, I am not ready to condemn everyone in the field of psychology, my field, with how horrible they are if they had a diagnosis of BPD or narcissistic (there is normal narcissism too). I don't deny there are bad therapists out there practicing. Bad gastro doctors, bad neurosurgeons, bad internists, bad pulmonary doctors, bad kidney doctors, etc, bad nurses, you name it--bad plumbers, roofers, bricklayers, etc etc.
I just am not willing to paint a whole profession as irresponsible for the ones that are bad. There are remedies. For those who have had bad experiences, you can contact the licensing board for that profession in your state, and you can file a complaint. Even if nothing comes of it, if enough people start filing complaints about that person, then it will be looked at for sure. Who knows, maybe others have already filed complaints against the people some here have seen and who were really bad in terms of violating boundaries and other stuff. So, take action.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:43:48
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Quintal, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:40:18
I think I need to just stay away for awile. I am starting to get really upset. Sorry.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 15:16:22
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » RealMe, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:43:48
I am sorry to see that this thread is upsetting to you, but I can understand how it can be, given the line of work that you are in.
I do agree that there are "bad apples" in every profession and line of work, and that the affected people need to take responsibility and file complaints. I have also seen some bright, healthy, caring people in the psych. profession who are grounded and emotionally healthy enough to practice effectively. They give me hope that there are good people in the profession. Unfortunately, people(like myself) can lose sight of that after encountering one of the "bad apples"
Take care of yourself,
Maria
Posted by Honore on September 3, 2007, at 18:53:57
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Quintal, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:40:18
I regret that you're uncomfortable with the thread RealMe. Most therapists have had their own personal struggles, and that seems to make people more capable in many instances of understanding and working well as therapists.
So I think the only thing one can say about this woman is that she has made a strange, although not unprecedented, mistake about diagnosing political points of view with psychiatric categories. It never makes sense to reduce a political point of view to a diagnosis-- especially in a pejorative way, as she did.
It's not valid to suggest that a psychiatric diagnosis, or emotional difficulty, prevents one from being a good therapist, or from making valid judgments about whether one is capable of working as a therapist. These are very complex and personal judgments.
Both are ways of looking at one problem or sphere and confusing with another one-- political or professional. There really isn't any easy correspondence among these things.
But I'm really sorry if that came across in anything that was written, by me or anyone else.
Honore
Posted by Quintal on September 3, 2007, at 19:02:34
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Quintal, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:40:18
I find find material upsetting too RM. I don't like being tarred by the same brush as those borderlines that abuse people, or use suicide and SI as a tool of manipulation either. That's something I've never done, it's just not my personal 'borderline style'. It's likely people only behave that way because they've been abused in some way themselves anyway, so I find her lack of compassion disturbing.
The thing that upsets me most is not just that she holds these opinions, but that she chose to publish them in the public domain under the heading 'Dr. Sanity', and let everyone know she was a practicing psychiatrist. I think it showed poor judgment at best, so I guess we shouldn't take her too seriously, but still.
Q
Posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 19:29:05
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » RealMe, posted by Honore on September 3, 2007, at 18:53:57
I didn't really stay away for long; I just needed to get my bearings again. What I was taking from what I read was that someone who has had serious problems in the past or problems in the present has no business working in psychology.
As I thought about it more, there isn't a person alive who does not have problems, including therapists. If we idealize them and believe they are perfect, then we do them and ourselves a disservice. You are right Honore. I am not saying that this woman is okay in her comments. My upset had to do more with what seemed to be the tenor and tone of some posts that anyone with problems had no business working in the field. So, I will let that be an opinion of some. I still do an outstanding job so I am told, and so I will have to get my hard shell back on and ignore anyone who would suggest there is no way I can work and have problems too.
I was in therapy throughout my postdoc at Menninger's, and those folks knew my history, and so if they were not concerned and valued my work, well then these were some of the best of the best in the field doing psycholanalytically informed treatment at the time. So, later; I have two reports to finish tonight. One for sure, and I should get the other one started.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Quintal on September 3, 2007, at 21:49:03
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Honore, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 19:29:05
My concern was that this woman seemed to bear extreme hostility to the people she was/has been working with. Surely this is an barrier to a healthy therapeutic relationship? Nobody has suggested that you personally are unfit to practice because of the past BPD diagnosis, in fact I would think a former sufferer would have greater insight and compassion than a non-sufferer. It was the perceived lack of these qualities in 'Dr. Sanity's' posts that disturbed me. While acknowledging that all therapists are human and have human frailties, I strongly feel that 'Dr. Sanity' should not work with borderline patients while she holds such extreme prejudices against them. How much progress could you have made if people like 'Dr. Sanity' worked at Menningers, for example? I understand why this is a sensitive issue for you, and for those of us who suspect we have been abused by doctors, psychiatrists and therapists with untreated borderline personality disorder this is a sensitive issue too.
Q
Posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 22:15:36
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » RealMe, posted by Quintal on September 3, 2007, at 21:49:03
I am not upset with anyone; I just had a sensitive moment. It is something I struggle with at times. Should I even do the type of work I am doing and will be doing in the future plus supervising which I love to do??? My T thinks it is fine but often wonders if evaluating sex offenders hasn't affected me sort of after the fact, a delayed reaction. I said I did not think so except maybe a couple of guys, but they were violent rapists, and I have never been raped as an adult by a stranger. So, I have questioned what I have been doing, and lately I have seen few sex offenders as they seem to come in waves up for trial. My last two next week are not sex offenders, and so what next!!!
I also understand how you feel. I was diagnosed as chronic schizophrenic at one time prior to my treatment at Menninger's. Most doctors had given up on me. My hospital doctor at Menninger's and later as my T just laughed and laughed at this. I didn' t think it was so funny, but he did as he said I wasn't schizophrenic like I thought I might be. I am not so sure I liked having the diagnosis of BPD either, but it was a lot of hard work to deal with personality reconstruction as they call it. So then, I was told I just had some avoidant traits but no Personality Disorder. My T now and my last one agree. I guess this is why my T thinks I can handle stuff better now. He's right, but it doesn't make it any less painful.
No that psychiatrist sounds a little weird to say the least. I will say that most therapists do not like working with people with BPD. This is because, I think, they believe it is all manipulation and gaming. I know that is not true. Menninger's was expert in working with BPD, and I have always liked working with BPD patients. I would not join in the emergency when it occured and was not put off by it. I would try to explain calmly what I saws from the time span of a few days. And the anger never got to me either. I knew it was not me personally that the person was angry with. Anyway, obviously there is more to it than that.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 22:24:41
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » RealMe, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 14:43:48
I in no way was implying that you aren't fit to practice. As others have said, there are many people in the psych. field who have encountered a lot in their lives and have gone on to become wonderful practitioners because of their hardships. Unfortunately, there are those out there who have let their hardships enter the room with them when working with clients, and well, you know the rest in my case :/
I just wanted to clarify that for you, because I didn't want you to think I was implying that you(or anyone else) were unfit to practice because of their histories. Quite the opposite =)
Posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 22:46:47
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » RealMe, posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 22:24:41
Maria
I was not thinking of you personally or anyone personally. It just struck me, the tenor and tone all together. I was in a bad spot at the time I started reading the thread, and it just stuck me for some reason. Don't worry. Everyone here has been great, and I have felt badly that people have had bad therapists, me included.
I even had one as a 19 year-old, a therapist who was grooming me for sex, and I didn't realize it at first. He kept telling me to dress like a young lady, change my hair style, and other stuff which I did. Then he wanted me to sit next to him on the couch, and I did. He put his arm around me and started to tell me about how beautiful I was, etc. I never went back to see him again. He was ICH anyway, fat and ugly. I hate to say that as I now feel fat and ugly, but it is how I felt back then.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 23:05:26
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Maria01, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 22:46:47
Oh, wow. That is just awful.
One of my classmates from when I was studying psych had a younger sister who was being treated for PTSD secondary to being assaulted. The male T she was seeing wound up sexually assaulting her. Fortunately, she was able to tell her family and they got it handled. My classmate was so outraged that it even happened that she went on to work for the enforcement arm of the BBS!
=) Unfortunately, she was very busy. We've lost touch over time, but I loved her career choice.A family friend had a simliar experience to yours...*shakes head*. I also had a "grey area" experience at 15. I was chronically truant in school, and as a condition of staying enrolled there, I had to see a counselor. The Dr. my mom worked for recommended this guy who had a good track record with teens.
Dude spent more time staring at my chest( I was an early bloomer) and he just creeped me out. I called him a pervert and walked out. Needless to say, he got no more referrals from my mom's employer, and I never went back. I'm just glad I stood up, because so many young girls are afraid to stand up. We wound up handling my truancy as a family and that was the end of it. =)
I just do not understand people like that..they makes everyone else look bad.
On a separate note, I had a run-in with someone who said that all vet techs are irresponsible and clueless. I was p.o.'ed; there are some lousy vet techs out there who ruin it for the rest of us who practice with good conscience and the pets interests at heart. It also contributes to our pay scale being relatively low as well =(
It's easy to see how a few ineffective people within a profession can really make it hard for everyone else in that field. I digress....
Posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 23:26:41
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » RealMe, posted by Maria01 on September 3, 2007, at 23:05:26
I just looked at her blog site. This woman is wacko in my opinin. She says her specialty area is aerospace, and she has written a book on choosing astronauts for the space program. If she is involved with this in any way, no wonder we have had problems. We have a female astronaut right now who was stalking a woman who was involved with a male astronaut. He was seeing two women at the same time, I think. I may be wrong. I don't keep up with this stuff, but the female astronaut was just in court recently to get her ankle bracelet removed. Trial hasn;t started yet. So, anyway. Wow, she is one scarey character, Dr. Sanity (my name for her is Dr. Insanity).
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by B2chica on September 4, 2007, at 9:16:25
In reply to Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers*, posted by Quintal on September 3, 2007, at 4:34:48
not only do i find this persons comments and 'stories' appalling, but i am amazed at how she uses these persons 'personality disorders' for her own political agenda.
why is she comparing people with BPD to those 'against' Bush or against the war??
honestly when reading this, my first reaction was Quintal, just stop reading this dribble. it's not even worth a comment or getting upset about, its like reading the inquirer. i find this person SO FAR beyond a reliable source of information that its almost funny. because of her 'links' to her political 'insight', it just pushes her over the edge and puts this article/book into the 'fiction' area of my mind.
i can't even read others responses to this because it's so rediculous.
PLEASE Quintal. dont continue with this persons 'insights'. they are in no way helpful OR insightful.
and besides...You may have BPD...but you Recognize this and BOY is that a huge step.
i do hate the stigma that is put on those dx with BPD.
my mother was very clearly BPD and it did affect me negatively, but that doesn't mean "they're all alike".
she talks so negatively about them...if she's that upset by it, i hope she stops practicing psychology.
Posted by Maria01 on September 4, 2007, at 9:25:05
In reply to Re: Dr. Sanity and new name, Dr. Insanity, posted by RealMe on September 3, 2007, at 23:26:41
I took a look at the blog, too. She is not the most stable pillar under the pier, as my aunt would say.
Yoicks!
Posted by pegasus on September 4, 2007, at 11:02:06
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers* » Maria01, posted by Squiggles on September 3, 2007, at 14:01:16
I disagree that it's necessarily better to speak to someone who is intimately involved in your life in a mutual relationship. In my experience, a therapist is the only person who has been willing to skillfully spend the attention and time on *my* issues that I really needed to break through to a new way of looking at things.
I have many good friends, and close family members, and they are certainly helpful people in my life. But I would not be comfortable spending an hour every week talking about my deepest, most private thoughts (assumptions, fears, convictions, etc.) with them. Even if I did spend an hour every week talking deeply with them, I'd be so much more concerned about how they would react to what I was saying, and with giving equal attention and assistance to them, than I do with my therapist. They are not trained to handle just *anything* like therapists are. Most of them would certainly be freaked out by some of the things I've worked on with a therapist. And many of them would take very personally, in an unhelpful way for me, a lot of what I've needed to discuss in therapy.
It's just not the same kind of help. Sure it's great to have supportive people in your life, and to be able to confide in them. But in my real life, I want those relationships to be mutual, because that's how you maintain them and find them fulfilling. In therapy I find it incredibly helpful that the relationship doesn't have to be mutual, and that I can go places that mutuality would make difficult.
peg
Posted by Squiggles on September 4, 2007, at 11:06:31
In reply to therapy vs. friendship » Squiggles, posted by pegasus on September 4, 2007, at 11:02:06
It's only my opinion. I find speaking to strangers
about very personal matters intimidating. I like to know the person, and also know that the have insight and memories of my history to some extent.
I also don't like the charge of personal interactions-- it reminds me of prostitution.Everyone is different.
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on September 4, 2007, at 11:25:35
In reply to Re: Is 'Dr. Sanity' an undiagnosed BPD? *Triggers*, posted by B2chica on September 4, 2007, at 9:16:25
B2chia, this is what upset me; in over five pages of Google search results for BPD, nearly all of them were supportive, bar this one - and by a practicing psychiatrist of all people. This is easily the most ignorant and venomous diatribe directed at the mentally ill persons that I've ever read. I think my psychiatrist had BPD, or strong traits, and he was very aggressive towards me, and he has cut off my access to psychiatric care, probably for good. So I find 'Dr. Sanity's' Blog very triggering. I wanted to share this with the board in the hope of getting support.
>i can't even read others responses to this because it's so rediculous.
I wish people would read other's responses to threads like this because it helps to gauge the tone and content of our posts.
>why is she comparing people with BPD to those 'against' Bush or against the war??
That's what I wondered too. My guess was that her social schema or whatever goes something like this:
"I got f*cked over by someone with BPD, therefore all people with BPD are bad. I hate socialists, therefore all socialists are bad people. All bad people have BPD, therefore all socialists must have BPD".
It's extremely crude and naive, but as far as I'm concerned this is the caliber of her political theories. I'm really shocked that someone who has actually studied medicine and psychiatry can have so little insight into their own mental processes.
>she talks so negatively about them...if she's that upset by it, i hope she stops practicing psychology.
Me too, though I can't see it happening unless she actually attacks someone, even then it's pretty much a crap shoot. Who would a jury believe; the patriotic psychiatrist or the borderline patient?
Q
Posted by RealMe on September 4, 2007, at 20:05:31
In reply to Re: Dr. Sanity and new name, Dr. Insanity » RealMe, posted by Maria01 on September 4, 2007, at 9:25:05
> I took a look at the blog, too. She is not the most stable pillar under the pier, as my aunt would say.
> Yoicks!OOH; I like that one, "not the most stable pillar under the pier." I have to remember that one.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Squiggles on September 5, 2007, at 11:21:27
In reply to Re: Dr. Sanity and new name, Dr. Insanity, posted by RealMe on September 4, 2007, at 20:05:31
I just looked at her site; she's conservative
(i hold conservative views in some areas and socialist in others),
but it's interesting to look at both sides; i think that's the moto of Justice. Certainly, i have run across friends and their relatives who are willing to expel you from their group if you consider conservative views.Squiggles
Posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:53:12
In reply to Re: Dr. Sanity and new name, Dr. Insanity » RealMe, posted by Squiggles on September 5, 2007, at 11:21:27
My concerns about her have nothing to do with conservatism or liberalism. They have to do with the issues that are raised about how she views psychopathology.
RealMe
(OzLand)
This is the end of the thread.
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