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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:39
I was watching on Primetime, at 6 about this new treatment that litterly shocks people who do harm to htem selves.
Such as headbanging till almost brain damage is done, biting there self, screaming, this was said with "autistic" children.
They also talk about drugs......haldol, heavy antipsychotics taht make the person basically sleep all day, zoned out, antipsychotic'd person. They thought this treatment would benefit better than drugs.
The treatment is done by every time the child or teenager starts to hit, bite, or inflict any harm to themselves, there is a very intese shock that is giving which straps are on there arms and legs, that deliver the shock. What i cant understand is, if they continue it, they will get the shock over and over and over again, until it forces them to quit. But thats delivering more pain than just what they are doing to themselves, but its suppost to be non harmful, but painful.
What happens if they have no memory after the shock not to do it? do zap them 10-20 times until there body is exhausted?
Conterversy was stated about this. Should drugs be used really, there have been success stories about manually strapping them down, but this is something htat look like someone one very psychotily ill in a locked up psych ward. But there was success..... in a few.
What do you think.
1. Antipsychotics- which zone, almost make the patient sleep all day, have no real ocupation because there so zoned out.
2. The Shock Treatemnt.
3. Manually restraining the patient. -- this is what i go for. But it takes alot of people and more money, for theapy.
Should they also just maybe use shock treatment and therpy?
What do you think?
Rj
Posted by rjlockhart on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:39
In reply to Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by rjlockhart on February 23, 2007, at 0:45:32
Posted by Declan on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:39
In reply to Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by rjlockhart on February 23, 2007, at 0:45:32
None of the above.
It's about funding, isn't it?
Posted by Klavot on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:39
In reply to Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by rjlockhart on February 23, 2007, at 0:45:32
I have a problem with biting myself too, no kidding, and it seems to be getting out of control.
Years ago, my psychiatrist did the following for my OCD, and it worked quite well. She had me wear an elastic band around my wrist all day, and her instructions were that, every time I submitted to OCD behaviour, I was to punish myself by pulling the elastic band taut and giving myself a nice moderately painful flick.
In the beginning, nothing much seemed to happen, but after a few weeks of doing this, I one day noticed that my OCD behaviour had just about disappeared.
Klavot
Posted by Phillipa on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:39
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by Klavot on February 23, 2007, at 3:34:57
Seriously? I tried this once and cause I really didn't feel it abandoned it. Love Phillipa
Posted by rjlockhart on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:39
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm » Klavot, posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2007, at 10:05:13
well i mean back to what i was saying.
Is shock treatment like treating someone like an animal you know like those shockers they put on dogs for peeing somewhere in the house.
I dont really agree with it. I would say just like back in the good old days, restrain them, use therpy, and you may have results.
rj
Posted by notfred on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:40
In reply to Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by rjlockhart on February 23, 2007, at 0:45:32
> What do you think?
>
> Rj
I think that this is an issue where no one has a proper frame of reference to form an informed and educated opinion unless they have been in close contact with autistic persons, such as family members or caregivers.
Posted by windgusts on February 25, 2007, at 13:13:40
In reply to Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by rjlockhart on February 23, 2007, at 0:45:32
can they reward them when they do something good with food treats, and discourage them in other ways like restricting their toys or tv rather than shocking or drugging them?
Posted by Declan on February 25, 2007, at 13:14:42
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm » rjlockhart, posted by windgusts on February 24, 2007, at 2:26:28
Maybe, I dunno, it may require some sort of force to prevent certain behaviours.
It's not that I have a problem with....it's more doing it through a technique.Drugs are problematic with autistic people.
Generally they are sensitive to them and require lower doses.
Sometimes low dose SSRIs (of the calming sort?) can be helpful.
Posted by wishingstar on February 25, 2007, at 17:35:35
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by notfred on February 23, 2007, at 16:57:39
I agree with notfred in many ways. I dont have close contact with anyone diagnosed with autism, although I do know quite a bit about it from the work I do. I think it's hard to make a call on these situations without knowing a lot about autism but more importantly, without knowing a lot about these particular children. What is their current level of functioning? What treatments/interventions have been tried before? what were the results? what is their level of cognitive functioning and would it be possible to use a more cognitive reinforcement/punishment system (like tokens, etc) or is this beyond their abilites? How strong are the shocks (because obviously very strong shocks would be unethical, but I'm sure that isnt the case here, or theyd be shut down)? Whats the function of the repetative behavior and can it be redirected or resolved in another way that the person isnt able to communicate? And on and on. My immediate reaction, with few details on the situation of course, is that strictly restraining them isnt enough. Sure, it keeps them safe in the moment, but does very little to stop the behavior from recurring.
I'm not necessairly for shocks.. the idea does sound a bit odd. I guess I'm just trying to present a middle ground. I dont want to judge without knowing what theyre really doing over there.
Posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 17:54:40
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by wishingstar on February 25, 2007, at 17:35:35
I work with lots of kids on the spectrum. Different techniques work for different children. Like all things, treatments are often presented in the best, or worse, light. What we all want is for every individual to be given the best chance to function in the world -- contributing to the greater good and being happy as individuals. Sometimes parents are desperate to try anything. Imagine if your child banged his/her head over and over again and you were powerless to prevent such self-injury?
What we know is that different medications work, some better than others. Sometimes we need to sedate children in order to give them a chance to rest and heal. It takes 10 days to form a habit and nearly 60 to break one. So intervening strongly and quickly with self-harm behaviors is critical.
We also know that for some children with autism, touch can be excruciating and terrifying. Restraining them can be a form of torture. I think we all flinch when we think of shock therapy because there are so many bad movies about it. But it can and is used humanely and effectively. We also know that certain kinds of depression and OCD behaviors respond to "large" shock treatment. Often used as a last resort, it can be an attempt to "reset" the brain.
I also believe that none of these things typically are used in isolation or carelessly. It is a matter of money sometimes, but more often it is a matter of desperation to reach and save these children. No parent chooses any treatment lightly. My heart breaks for them.
Posted by wishingstar on February 25, 2007, at 18:05:15
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 17:54:40
Daisy, I think that was a great post. You expressed some of what I was thinking in a much, much better way.
You mentioned that you work with autistic children.. Do you mind if I ask what you do? Of course you dont have to share here if you dont want to, but I'd be curious. It's a population I havent done much work with but I find it very interesting.
Posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 19:35:14
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm » Daisym, posted by wishingstar on February 25, 2007, at 18:05:15
Thank you.
I am the director of a nonprofit for children and we have a large program for children with special needs. The predictions are that in 10 years, 1 in 5 children with special needs will have autism. And this is in the under 5 population where diagnosis typically doesn't happen until age 3. We argue all the time whether this is a mental health affliction or a developmental delay (hence the PDD label.) In the end, we use a team approach from all disciplines.
btw, it is more and more common for mental health workers to encounter folks with developmental delays in their practices. Talk about a shock to traditional talk therapy!
Posted by wishingstar on February 26, 2007, at 9:58:01
In reply to Re: Shocking autistic children from doing harm » wishingstar, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2007, at 19:35:14
Very neat daisy! That sounds like a very interesting job.. although I'm sure LOTS of stresses and difficult days.
In my opinion, I think we're going to continue seeing the increase in rates of developmental delays and childhood issues as the industrial (aka toxic) nature of our society continues to progress, at least if it stays on the track its on - more chemicals and stronger chemicals. I dont necessairly believe (or know enough about it to give an educated opinion) that toxins are THE cause for autism as some argue, but I do know that we're harming ourselves in the name of productivity and our bodies have to pay the price somehow. We're not immune to as much as we think we are. That's way off topic from where this thread started, sorry... much of my undergrad and grad work was on chemical sensitivities and environmental medicine and it's something that is really interesting (and frightening) to me. I'm probably really not educated enough on developmental delays or their causes to even relate the two. Please feel free to disagree because you obviously know much more about these issues than I do.
We do have a few children with with mild autism and other issues (mild MR, I know) on our intensive in-home caseload. It's difficult because we're there mostly to deal with behavioral issues and problems within in the family, usually with traditional talk therapy and behavioral interventions as they present themselves. Most of us are not well trained in working with other disabilities and the things they require can be different from a typical child/family. It's a learning experience for clinician and family at the same time. We use a team approach as well, but no disability specialists are involved in our program, except for possibly a special ed teacher if one is already involved. There is so many things that need to be done, and just so few people (and so little time!) to do them.
I feel like I know what I'm trying to say in my head and it isnt translating into words very well. Hope that made more sense than it does on my screen.
This is the end of the thread.
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