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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
Not a good night.
But there's been a shift. I woke up with an entirely different perspective.
I know why I don't question my therapist about his seeming anger or contempt or body language.
It's not so much that I am afraid, although I am.
It's because he never tells the truth.
And having him lie to me is thousands of times worse than taking whatever he dishes out.
I questioned him once about taking a piece of paper and ripping it in tiny pieces because I said I didn't believe him. He denied the paper ripping.
Even when we had such a bad session about the dream a few weeks ago. The next session he denied everything. "Did I say negative transference? Oh I really meant positive. Those are just big words like formal spanish."
Once I did argue with him. He insisted that I had a bad week because of some minor incident that happened at work. I argued for weeks. "No, but it's not like that for me." He absolutely refused to back down. He was the authority, he knew the way these things work and why was I insisting that I was the only one in the world that was different. After weeks of my crying, because I couldn't stand to be against him for so long, we just slowly dropped the argument, but he never conceded even one point.
So if I say to him, "You seem angry or I think you are angry." He would say, "Me? Angry? I think that you must be the angry one." I am 99% sure of it.
Even the phone calls, why not say something simple like "So many calls, you can tell it's the start of a new semester" or "All these calls must be because I was away this weekend" or even "I have no idea why the phone is ringing so much" but instead he just slowly looks at it, tilts it so he can see the number while I wait for his attention. Everything that happens in that room seems to be designed to deny reality.
Even the one time, when I said he was fed up with me, he denied everything (No, I think you must be the one fed up) and then finally when I repeated all his words to him he said "Well maybe I've been hard on you." So, once he has owned his own behavior. Once in three years.
So I think if I point out his body language (and I can't believe he's not aware of it) he will become more and more defensive.
But I just don't want to go anymore. I really don't. I will send a check for what I owe him and be done with it.
I used not to be so crazy.
Posted by muffled on September 9, 2005, at 9:43:30
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
Cricket, thats freaky. The guy don't sound too right. Do you have someone who could come in with you a time or two while you straighten out what the h*ll is going on? You control the meetings, you should be in control, its about you. If the guy can't come up w/any explanation I'd drop him like a hot potatoe. You've invested some time in him but if he's LYING??? I dunno. Honesty is extreemly important to me or there is no trust, and without trust,how could I work. I'm not too clever. Some of the more smart people will proly give you some good answers. Take care of yourself, it'll be ok.
Posted by JenStar on September 9, 2005, at 9:58:27
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
hi Cricket,
you don't seem crazy! You seem rightfully annoyed at his behavior. He sounds like one of those therapists who want to be a "blank slate", a mirror that has no feelings but merely reflects YOURS. How annoying to have your words thrown back at you -- if you say he looks angry, he says YOU are; if you say he looks upset, he says YOU'RE the upset one.I mean, maybe you ARE angry and upset. But he could be, too. And you're not asking about yourself, you're asking about him. Why can't he own up to his feelings, esp. if it's bothing you so much? It's not like you want to spend the whole hour talking about him...you just want to do a process check and see how he's doing on his side of the fence, right? Seeing how he's doing with your therapy?
I would also be very frustrated if my T did this kind of behavior. But I do think that hard as it is, maybe it would feel rewarding to call him on all of it once before you go. Tell him everything - that you hate his answering calls and not apologizing for it, that his body language disturbs you, that you feel he's sometimes rude, etc. Maybe just get it ALL out there! -- And see what he says. You never know...maybe some great honesty and breakthroughs will come of it. And if you, you can leave with an easy heart (as easy as possible) knowing that you tried everything?
In any case, I'm sorry he's acting this way.
take care,
JenStar
Posted by crazy teresa on September 9, 2005, at 10:09:46
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
I don't think you're crazy! I see therapy as a place you should be safe from the world including the head games this guys seems to want to play with you. There should be a balance of power in a good relationship of any kind. From what you've described, he holds ALL the power and seems to enjoy it WAY too much.
You deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, cricket, no matter what has happened in your life. Please call and make an appointment with someone else today!
Hop away from him quickly cricket before he squishes you with his big, black, wingtip shoe.
crazy t
Posted by daisym on September 9, 2005, at 10:53:38
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
Sometimes you really have done all you can with a particular therapist and things have changed in a way that make it time to move on. I think it is really hard to sort out whether it is a negative transference or not, but if you feel you are getting worse and you've tried a number of things, taking a break or getting a consultation with someone else might really help.
I'm sorry it is so rough and you feel you can't talk to him in a way that he will own it. It is never all on one person, in any kind of a relationship. Two people create the dynamic in a unique way.
I'll be interested to hear how he reacts to your decision. It isn't like this should be a surprise, you've obviously been trying to talk to him about it.
(((Cricket)))
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 10:59:25
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist, posted by muffled on September 9, 2005, at 9:43:30
Thanks Muffled.
You're right, it shouldn't be this dam* hard.
Honesty is important. Maybe at least I've learned that. If I ever go back to therapy, I can be on the lookout for that.
I've been reading about your therapy struggles too. I hope it gets better. I like AnnieRose's suggestions. I hope you try that.
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 11:09:42
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by JenStar on September 9, 2005, at 9:58:27
Hi JenStar,
Thanks for the support.
At this point, I really don't understand his methods. But I guess I do know what to look for next time.
Maybe someday I will be able to chalk it all up as a learning experience, but at this point it just hurts.
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 11:13:21
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by crazy teresa on September 9, 2005, at 10:09:46
From what you've described, he holds ALL the power and seems to enjoy it WAY too much.
>
He definitely has all the power but he doesn't seem to be having too much fun either.> Hop away from him quickly cricket before he squishes you with his big, black, wingtip shoe.
LOL. Thanks crazy t.
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 12:04:38
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by daisym on September 9, 2005, at 10:53:38
Thanks Daisy.
I don't know what's going on. That's for sure. And I always, always doubt myself and blame myself. So maybe it's time at least to try something different there.
Posted by rubenstein on September 9, 2005, at 13:44:30
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
Cricket
I am so sorry
that sounds so frustrating
I don't know what to say except that I feel for you and hope you can figure things out or not with your T
Take care fo yourself
Rachel
Posted by Shortelise on September 9, 2005, at 13:57:51
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
From your perspective, I hate this guy. He sounds like a sh*t, the worst kind of therapist, making you feel crazy for your perceptions. Really, I hate him.
But there is always the other side of the coin, the "projection" stuff, and from out here I can't tell if it is you or it is him.
From what you write, and you seem to make sense, I think it's him, and that your perceptions are valid, and that you should get the honk out of there and into therapy with a decent therapist. But I could be so wrong.
That's the problem with this kind of contact we have here. On the one hand, I really want to support you and your feelings, but on the other hand, what if you *are* projecting all this onto him?
But ugh, I'd hate him if he dealt with my projecting the way he is with yours, if that's what it is. I'd hate him if it wasn't projecting and he dealt with it the way you describe. Ok, I just hate your T. As angry as I have been at mine at times, I always always work through it with him, and almost always he owns what I think is his stuff. Sometimes we do disagree on whose stuff it is, but that is so so rare.
Cricket, I am sorry. I hope I am not adding to your confusion.
ShortE
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 15:09:16
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist, posted by rubenstein on September 9, 2005, at 13:44:30
Thanks Rachel. Glad to hear your session went better. Maybe you could send some good session waves my way :-)
Posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 16:04:11
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by Shortelise on September 9, 2005, at 13:57:51
> From your perspective, I hate this guy. He sounds like a sh*t, the worst kind of therapist, making you feel crazy for your perceptions. Really, I hate him.
>
Yeah, I'm not feeling too good about him much of the time either this week.> But there is always the other side of the coin, the "projection" stuff, and from out here I can't tell if it is you or it is him.
>
I can't even tell from the inside either. Am I prone to projection? Absolutely.> From what you write, and you seem to make sense, I think it's him, and that your perceptions are valid, and that you should get the honk out of there and into therapy with a decent therapist. But I could be so wrong.
>
ShortE, I appreciate your support and advice no matter what.> That's the problem with this kind of contact we have here. On the one hand, I really want to support you and your feelings, but on the other hand, what if you *are* projecting all this onto him?
>> But ugh, I'd hate him if he dealt with my projecting the way he is with yours, if that's what it is. I'd hate him if it wasn't projecting and he dealt with it the way you describe. Ok, I just hate your T. As angry as I have been at mine at times, I always always work through it with him, and almost always he owns what I think is his stuff. Sometimes we do disagree on whose stuff it is, but that is so so rare.
>
> Cricket, I am sorry. I hope I am not adding to your confusion.
>
Not at all. You're helping me think this through. Next to the support, that's the best thing about Babble.So if I am projecting, does he know it? He certainly knows I am more and more unhappy. He knows I feel frustrated with the process.
So why doesn't he say, "I know you are very unhappy. I know you often doubt therapy in general and me in particular, but I am on your side and I want to help you."
Just that much.
Instead he'll say something like, "So you think I'm full of it. You think I have no idea what I'm talking about. You think everyone in your job is full of it too." And then the arms will cross and the legs will cross and he'll turn his body.
Maybe I am being too sensitive. But then I will just hang my head and not look at him anymore. So why doesn't he realize he is being too harsh, too cold? Or does he?
And if he does, then why does he continue to do it?
It's certainly not simple, is it?
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2005, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » Shortelise, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 16:04:11
I wouldn't blame you if you decided to go elsewhere. You've certainly been struggling.
Do you think he'd be ok with video or audiotaping the sessions? That way you two could play back the sessions and see what each of you is interpreting at any given moment.
I'd probably ask something like that, but then I was attached to my therapist from day one almost, and I would have wanted to put in the extra effort to avoid terminating him. But if I weren't attached, and I know you aren't, I'd probably have just walked.
Posted by fairywings on September 9, 2005, at 20:55:26
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
hi cricket,
it sounds like there's something seriously wrong with this guy. he needs to seek psychiatric help himself, and quit seeing clients until he gets his own issues sorted out. i'd be running to a new T. you need to take care of you, and the heck with his sorry *ss! he's supposed to "do no harm", and if he's making you 2nd guess every move you make, every thought you think, etc... then that's very harmful! time to move on.
fw
Posted by Tamar on September 9, 2005, at 20:58:58
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
Hi cricket,
I’m sorry to hear it’s still so hard for you. I don’t think you’re crazy. It does sound as if he’s being rather defensive.
I know you feel he’s inclined to lie to you, but I wonder if it’s worth asking him straight out what he expects from you.
It seems to me that you’ve been working quite hard on trying to feel attached to him and he seems to be a little ambivalent about it. It may be partly a matter of his personal ‘style’; perhaps he’s not sure what your attachment would mean for him professionally. And maybe you’re a little ambivalent about it too, in which case, perhaps he isn’t dealing terribly well at the moment with your ambivalence.
Did you ever talk to him about your ‘what if’ idea… what if you assume that he cares about you? What if he likes you and thinks about you between sessions? I would hope that taking about that idea with him might give him some hope that you can come to trust him.
I dunno… It seems to me that you have been making progress, but that your progress happens to have coincided with his feeling deskilled, and maybe he would feel less deskilled in relation to you if he knew that you have been working hard to try to trust him. But of course I don’t know all the details.
And the other thing is that if you are attempting to trust him you might be feeling uncomfortable with the vulnerability that involves, and sending confused signals to him, which might account for his strange reactions.
I suppose I’m concerned because it seems as if you’re on the verge of something big, but if you back away from him now you’re walking away from a potential source of support. Whereas if you stay, even though it’s hard, you might be able to make more progress.
Maybe he’s not perfect (and who is, after all?). And maybe he’s not the best match for you. But you’ve invested several years in therapy with him. If you do decide to leave, I would think that you might gain something from discussing that with him, at the very least.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by Shortelise on September 10, 2005, at 0:31:28
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » Shortelise, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 16:04:11
Cricket, all of that sounds awful. I would not last two sessions with him. My dear, we all deserve to be respected, not shut out, not judged.
There is no such thing as "too sensitive".
Cricket, I hate him. I am porjecting onto you the feelings I would have if my T did the same crap you say your t is doing. The difference is that I would try now try to stay in the moment and do a blow by blow of how I felt as he did everything he was doing. See what I mean?
There have been times when I have dounbted my T's abilitites, and I have toldhim so, and apologised for doubting. He has not wavered. He has not become defensive. A good T knows it's not really about him. Oh, hell, I don't know what it is my T knows, but he's is a good T and he would never, ever treat me as you are being treated. Mine just gets a little too wrapped up in some sort of ideal of treatment sometimes, I think, and loses sight of the fact that I am not always up to it.
What are your real options, Cricket?
ShortE
Posted by crazy teresa on September 10, 2005, at 1:55:58
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by fairywings on September 9, 2005, at 20:55:26
> hi cricket,
>
> it sounds like there's something seriously wrong with this guy. he needs to seek psychiatric help himself, and quit seeing clients until he gets his own issues sorted out. i'd be running to a new T. you need to take care of you, and the heck with his sorry *ss! he's supposed to "do no harm", and if he's making you 2nd guess every move you make, every thought you think, etc... then that's very harmful! time to move on.
>
> fw
I love reading your posts, fairywings; you are my kind of girfriend!crazy t
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2005, at 11:32:21
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
Hi Cricket,
Your therapist sounds like he needs to continuing education in how to interact with patients in a professional manner.
He also needs to find a good therapist and work out his over inflated ego issues. Turning the phone so he can see who is calling screams *look how important I am- so many people want me.* He's probably one of those annoying people who talk loudly on cell phones in public.
Plus lessons in manners. Looking at a phone to see who is calling is rude. I would get up and turn the phone around the other way if I were you. If you can get yourself to say something, how about *today I am angry, because you're rude.*
If you don't go back to him, if I were you I'd write him a letter telling him why. He deserves to know what a complete **** (censored myself) he is in how he treats you.
Safe cyber hugs. ((((Cricket))))
Poet
Posted by sleepygirl on September 10, 2005, at 11:50:23
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
I don't like his attitude, not one bit
Where is his realistic appreciation of how his behavior affects others? That would frustrate the heck out of me cricket. I'm sorry. I know that no therapist is 'perfect', but geez. Mine keeps trying to get me to confront him on issues I get angry at him about. I wish you all the best and take good care of yourself. Put faith in your perceptions. :-)
-sleepygirl
Posted by muffled on September 10, 2005, at 15:18:32
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by Poet on September 10, 2005, at 11:32:21
Posted by cricket on September 10, 2005, at 15:46:35
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2005, at 18:39:34
Yeah, I guess I'm not attached.
I mean right now I think I'd just feel relieved if he came in and said we can't work together anymore.
I tried to attach, but he has no handles to grip onto.
For some reason, I still want to though. How strange. I think I'm just feeling lonely.
Posted by cricket on September 10, 2005, at 15:50:39
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » cricket, posted by fairywings on September 9, 2005, at 20:55:26
Thanks fairywings.
I thought about writing a chart.
Cricket Before Therapy/Cricket After Therapy
But it's way too depressing.
But there's you guys on Babble. That's one positive thing.
Posted by muffled on September 10, 2005, at 15:55:15
In reply to Re: Lying Therapist » Dinah, posted by cricket on September 10, 2005, at 15:46:35
Posted by alexandra_k on September 10, 2005, at 16:02:08
In reply to Lying Therapist, posted by cricket on September 9, 2005, at 8:49:02
I'm sorry cricket... I don't really know what to say. He sounds a bit like my last p-doc. And I remember... I didn't think things were going so well with his taking phone calls and lying and so on... Maybe the difference is that I didn't have a choice - I couldn't work with anybody else. You do have a choice, however, you could always get yourself a new t.
I'm not sure... It sounds to me like you have been making progress in working with him.
But... Its hard to figure how much he is helping you progress... And how much that progress could be facilitated by your working with someone different. I don't know.
About the dream...
I started thinking that maybe he meant it was negative because your alter thought he would respond to her like that...
But then after some more thought it is positive that you told him about your dream...
And telling you that it is negative isn't so likely to help.
So maybe he changed his mind on that...
But it is hard when they aren't upfront about that. Makes us start to wonder if we are imagining things...
I don't know.
I guess I would try and talk to him and sort it out...
Mostly because...
Better the devil you know
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