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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on May 27, 2005, at 19:30:43
IT was not real for me as well. All the attachment and everything even that I had - they are all fake (or transference) or some left over ghosts from the past that I projected onto my ex T. I was perhaps just trying to paint different faces onto him and learning from that. I don't think I cared really as well. How could I have cared? I didn't know anything about him. I liked him because he helped me - not becuase of what he was. That is not real liking - to like a person just because of what they do for you. WE feel all the attachment, but it is actually pretty selfish thing that we do. We like because we get to be helped. Maybe I wouldn't have liked him if I was in the helping position, and he was taking help from me. The same exact persons, if the role was reversed, then the feelings would have been opposite. Maybe he would have ended up liking me, and I would have been indifferent.
So you see - this kind of relationsihip is not real at all. IT is based only on expectations and expectations being fulfilled. It is not a real liking.
Plus I now realize more and more that even that is mostly a projection of my own deep longing for an emotional relationship. It has really nothing to do with my exT. It is all leftover from my relationship from my dad and possibly other previous relationships. So it is not a real thing for me either. I don't really know who my ex T is, if I really like him or if I am projecting etc.
I am grateful for his help and I like him for having helped me. But saying that I like him and care about him is all not true. I got something from him, and I liked that. That was all there was to it. And it is a wrong way to like a person to begin with - to like someone because they do something for you. That is not liking, that is being pampered, and you like the pampering. Just like how politicians are pampered by people under them in India. It is not true. I don't want to be that way.
Posted by pinkeye on May 27, 2005, at 19:31:14
In reply to Besides it is all just transference anyway., posted by pinkeye on May 27, 2005, at 19:30:43
Posted by shrinking violet on May 27, 2005, at 23:50:12
In reply to Besides it is all just transference anyway., posted by pinkeye on May 27, 2005, at 19:30:43
>> "It was not real for me as well. All the attachment and everything even that I had - they are all fake (or transference) or some left over ghosts from the past that I projected onto my ex T."
--I think every case is individual. And while transference does happen a lot in therapy, I also think it's also "misdiagnosed" a lot. I also think there can be transference AND a genuine feeling between the T and client. I can acknowledge that some my ATTACHMENT to my therapist was probably transferential in the sense that she gave me a lot of nurturing and "motherly" taking-care-of that I never had. And giving that up was/is VERY difficult, and realizing that I can't get that from her forever, and that I'll probably never get it again is incredibly painful. But, I also have a genuine feeling for my therapist as a person, and a respect for her as my T, with or without the attachment.
>>"I was perhaps just trying to paint different faces onto him and learning from that. I don't think I cared really as well. How could I have cared? I didn't know anything about him. I liked him because he helped me - not becuase of what he was. That is not real liking - to like a person just because of what they do for you."
--I know that's the essence of therapy, is to have the client's needs met without worrying about the T. And it a sense it is "selfish" in that it's one-sided, but that's what it's supposed to be. Maybe you didn't care for him in a deep sense, but you must have cared for him just out of respect of his being a fellow human being? That's still a form of caring, although maybe not the traditional meaning of the word. I never felt I was particularly getting anything MYSELF from my therapy with my T. I never saw or felt that. It seemed to me more of a give and take, that she was learning and changing (and needing and taking) from me just as much as I was from her. But every T/C relationship is different, of course.
>> "So you see - this kind of relationsihip is not real at all. IT is based only on expectations and expectations being fulfilled. It is not a real liking."--I don't agree with that, at least from my view. I do like my T very much. And she is far from perfect as a T or a woman, and I am (quite) far from perfect in any sense of the word, especially as a client. I do know some details of her life yes, and maybe that makes her more "real" to me (although my T is very authentic and she comes across as very human and open and genuine anyway). But I still like my T very much, I care for her very deeply, whether or not she hurts me, whether or not she hugs me, whether she is my T or not. I also think that given the intensity and intimacy of the relationship itself, even in the most limited sense, I think the two people in teh room together HAVE to like each other on some level, however minute, or else how could the therapy work? How would the client listen to someone he/she doesn't even LIKE in the general sense? And how could a T sit with someone he/she can't like enough to tolerate? (and don't say $$$, because listening to someone you don't like on some level, no matter how much you are paid, isn't worth it, let alone probably unethical). I've challenged my T a number of times, telling her she couldn't possibly like me, let alone care about me in any meaningful way. She's bent over backwards trying to convince me otherwise. I don't think two people could enter into such an unsure and turbulent relationship without at the very least some mutual liking and respect.
> "Plus I now realize more and more that even that is mostly a projection of my own deep longing for an emotional relationship. It has really nothing to do with my exT. It is all leftover from my relationship from my dad and possibly other previous relationships. So it is not a real thing for me either. I don't really know who my ex T is, if I really like him or if I am projecting etc."--It could be both, couldn't it? True, a lot of your feeling for your ex-T could be a projection/transference reaction, and it's good that you're aware of this. Just as I've admitted that some of my feeling for my T is mourning the loss of losing her as a mother-figure. But, at least for me, it's a lot more than that. I miss my T's laugh, I miss her voice (she has a great voice), I miss hearing about her cats, I miss her smile, I miss seeing her, I miss the connection we have when we're in a room together, I miss being with her. The way I miss a best friend from years ago. It can be very real, why couldn't it? Just because of the way we met automatically negates any feeling we have toward each other as unreal, etc? I think that's BS, honestly. I realize it's rare, but I also know a lot of my T's feeling for me was mutual.
I'm sure your T liked you, in some way at least. Is that unreal too? Is that just a projection or counter-transference on his part? I don't understand this constant need to label everything that happens between the client and the T. It always intrigued me that T's are so intent on having the client pour their feelings out, but Heaven for bid the feelings are directed toward them in any way, they shift in their seats and cough and stick a clinical label on it.
GG, if you're reading at all, why is that??
> "I am grateful for his help and I like him for having helped me. But saying that I like him and care about him is all not true. I got something from him, and I liked that. That was all there was to it. And it is a wrong way to like a person to begin with - to like someone because they do something for you. That is not liking, that is being pampered, and you like the pampering."--Okay, I see that could be true, and I think I understand what you're saying. I don't think it's "wrong" though, since that IS their role, to be there for the client solely in a way that no one else can. Why would you not like them for that, that's what they are there for. You might not be comfortable with it, but it isn't wrong in the therapeutic sense.
Maybe it's just hard for me to see my T as only a T, because I see her and feel like I know her in so many other contexts. Perhaps you only know your T as a T and can't "see" him in another way and hence figure out if you like him in some other way as just a person who does things for you (and I'm sure you change and teach him as well...if he is a good T, his clients should do that for him, he IS a human after all, not a computer). Maybe that's best though, maybe that's what therapy should be (although, maybe that's just another extreme).
Sorry if this at all sounds challenging or scattered. I'm trying to figure and grapple with some of my own stuff lately, and it probably spilled into this post. I'm sorry if that happened.
Thanks for the thought-provoking response. :-)
SV
Posted by frida on May 28, 2005, at 7:57:21
In reply to Besides it is all just transference anyway., posted by pinkeye on May 27, 2005, at 19:30:43
dear pinkeye,
hi...I feel a lot of pain in your post- and I'm so sorry you didn't get closure from your T.
Reading about how some T relationships end breaks my heart.
So many unsolved issues...and so many things hanging in the air...
I feel that there's a lot of pain in your post that comes from that and I'm so sorry you can't have that closure with your T and that it has made you feel that your relationship with him wasn't 'real' and now you have to protect yourself so much from getting attached or letting people close. It is very painful. I'm sorry you're feeling this way..About the T relationship, after struggling with doubts, insecurities, fears, I'm convinced that it is a real relationship, and that the feelings are two-sided and that they are real. I feel it..
It took me a long long time (years) to trust my T and to be able to believe this. But she has shown me that yes it is real.
She has explained that even though in the T relationship the focus is on me, my feelings, my problems, what comes from me- she is there with me, with her full self and when we share and are together, she is giving all of her and the connection and bond and caring between us is real.
She told me that it is only natural for that to happen-
She has encouraged me to see her as a human being. In the past I idealized her a lot- and that got in the way-- now she wants me to see her as a human being-- and maybe her boundaries have been a bit flexible because of that- I guess each relationship is different..but i'm sharing because I want to extend some hope to you- I am what you would call probably a challenging patient and I have made her feel frustrated thousand times...because I just couldn't talk. I couldn't say a word. I would sit there unable to say a word and fall apart after I left. We went through very difficult months and years...in which she tried every possible way to help me trust and talk..from being caring, gentle, mot her-like, from being pushy, etc. (I entered therapy because of csa but it took me a year to disclose)
Now we've reached a place where I do believe.
I do care about her as a person. What she gives me in the T room is from her heart. I have no doubts about that...
she has disclosed things about her life too, and that has helped me see her more human. I know about her, and I think it is impossible not to see the human side of a T when we share so much and it is such an intense relationship, and they do give of themselves so much-
I love my T, as a therapist, I love her and I want the best for her. From everything she has given me in the years we've worked together, I feel I do know her heart, I know her essence and I feel the soul connection that we have. And I do care about her for real. It's not projection or transference. I do project other feelings from my past- like being afraid of her leaving me, or being afraid of her hurting me, etc. But my love for her is real, and she acknowledges that. And validates it. And she also has said that she does love me back. I feel it in her actions.
I don't feel it's a money issue. I even pay her half of what her other patients pay her because I am in a very tight finantial situation.She has waited for me, when I have had finantial problems. So if it were for the money I really don't think I make a difference to her situation because I pay her less , and sometimes I can't pay her in time and she waits for me.
I guess I've reached a point in which i can't doubt her love and caring anymore. She has shown me in countless ways that I can trust that this is true. She has said it, she has shown herself as a human being -by sharing about her, by sharing her favourite books, movies and music with me, by even offering to help my fish by giving me some containers - saying that she thought it was good for our relationship for me to see her more human and for me to see her that it is real, that I can accept help, that it is ok, by her being patient with me, and calling me when I'm hurting, I feel cared for, and I care about her with all my heart, not because of what she gives me, but because of who she is, everything about her as a human being that shines through whenever we meet.
I love her as a human being. She is a wonderful therapist, but above all, she is a beautiful human being. She has told me a lot of times, that when she's there with me, she gives me all of her, it is part of her life too, and her heart is totally open and it is a rewarding, and moving experience for her too. That life is precious, and that the moment we spend there, is precious to her too and she is fully, fully there. I could go on and say everything I love about her that has nothing to do with her role as a T. Little gestures, details...things that make her special and unique as a human being.I guess I'm sharing all of this, for you to maybe consider that the caring that goes on between T and patient is real, genuine. It's different, and unique but it is not less real.
I'm sorry your T relationship ended in this way and that it left such painful feelings in you - I know how hard it is to let down walls and defenses once you've been badly badly hurt.
Letting someone close is risking so much - and I can see why you wouldn't want to let someone else close- another T, and why it is dangerous or painful to believe that there is real caring going on. But i think it's so sad too to question all the feelings you shared with your T. I wish so much you could get closure with himI hope my post hasn't hurt, I just wanted to say that I feel your pain..and to gently share with you that I do feel the T relationship is real...and that I'm so sorry you're feeling this way- It shouldn't be this way :-(
I'm sorry.sending you support and hope,
Frida
Posted by shrinking violet on May 28, 2005, at 14:23:38
In reply to Re: Besides it is all just transference anyway. » pinkeye, posted by frida on May 28, 2005, at 7:57:21
Frida,
That was so beautifully touching. I could have written every word, in relation to me and my (now ex) T as well.
Thank you,
sv
Posted by frida on May 30, 2005, at 8:58:59
In reply to that was lovely » frida, posted by shrinking violet on May 28, 2005, at 14:23:38
dear shrinking violet,
i'm sending you safe hugs if ok- thank you for reading...
it meant a lot.
my t has felt frustrated with me a thousand times-she has even stopped seeing me for a while, because I would not talk- and she said that she could not help me if I didn't talk- when I read about your T, i get the feeling maybe she felt a bit lost about how to help, sometimes T's can feel lost - when my T felt that way I felt so awful, I felt like I was a 'lost case'..she told me that she was trying to push me a bit, because as a t she has a commitment and responsibility towards me and can't let me keep suffering the way i was- she told me that love is not always so soft, we talked about that a lot, because it truly hurt when she was pushy towards me and frustrated- when before she had been so loving and gentle with me.
I feel that your T probably was having similar feelings- but you just didn't have time to work this out -- i'm so sorry -
i don't want to stir up painful feelings in you-
i so wish you could get some closure or talk with your T- it is very painful to have so many things unsaid, and so many things unsolved between you--i'm sending you lots of support
thinking of you
please stay safe,
frida
> Frida,
> That was so beautifully touching. I could have written every word, in relation to me and my (now ex) T as well.
> Thank you,
> sv
Posted by pinkeye on June 1, 2005, at 14:48:22
In reply to Re: that was lovely » shrinking violet, posted by frida on May 30, 2005, at 8:58:59
I am sorry I didn't reply to your posts before. I was on vacation and didn't have access.
What you have said is true.
I am not able to get further into this right now, but thanks for your posts. It helped me.
Posted by pinkeye on June 2, 2005, at 21:25:14
In reply to Thanks SV and Frida, posted by pinkeye on June 1, 2005, at 14:48:22
I am sorry I sounded very dismissal to both of you. I am in a somewhat strange state of mind these days. I don't understand myself all that well what I am feeling.
Thing is - how does it matter - what he felt, or what I felt - if it was all real or if it was transference. It really does not matter at the end of the day. If he cared, if he didn't care, if I cared, if I didn't care - nothing really mattered. And I don't want to dwelve much more on this - because there is absolutely no point. that is why I couldn't reply in detail to your posts. I am sorry I sounded very dismissing. But I have reached my limits, and it doesn't really matter anymore. Thanks for your posts though. I really appreciate it.
This is the end of the thread.
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