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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crazymaisie on April 21, 2005, at 23:20:25
ok. my t holds me. i just want to get a feel for how this seems to the outside viewer, people who understand therapy, mind. she holds me for long periods during sessions. i usually lie down with my head on her lap and she strokes my hair. i enjoy it alot, but sometimes it can be a bit confusing. the intensity is too much at times. there's nothing sexual in it, although i will admit to some sexual feelings for her. i'm willing to label these feelings transference and they don't bother me too much. i don't ever want to act on them and i don't ever believe she would be inappropriate or unethical with me in that way. the feelings can be a little confusing because i identify myself as straight and am happily married and all. but i see them as an extension of an intimate relationship, both emotionally and physically, it's just important to maintain the boundaries when it comes to actions.
in any case, i just want to know if anyone else does this with their t. it brings up alot of emotions which are difficult to name and discuss (possibly pre-verbal?) it feels good, almost addictive. i do think it stops us from talking about other things at times, though, and i wonder if i use it a little as a block to working through other things. our relationship has been complicated, rocky at times, veering from strong maternal transference to a more equal working alliance, to me caretaking, to whatever we're at now. right now it feels pretty stable and good and doesn't have the intensity it once had. (although intensity will sometimes flare up from time to time when a nerve is hit)
so what do you all think? is this going to end in tears? thanks in advance
maisie
Posted by messadivoce on April 22, 2005, at 1:36:55
In reply to physical holding, posted by crazymaisie on April 21, 2005, at 23:20:25
The T's I have had would not ascribe to this type of relationship. Especially my first T. He was very psychodynamic in nature and even when we hugged once, it was fair game for lots of discussion. I think he would say that it's important to talk about the longing to be touched and held instead of acting on it. I had a lot of transference, oedipal and sexual, that would have made that kind of touch very devastating for me.
I'm a little concerned for you because you say that you have transference/sexual feelings about her. Do you ever talk to her about them and explore them and try to understand them? Or does the touch you have in the relationship get in the way of talking about it? Are you afraid that if you bring it up, she will stop holding you?
You also said that you have played the role of caretaker in the past. Do you ever feel like the physical holding is something you do to fulfill her own needs? I only ask because I'm of the opinion that the T should NOT be in the relationship to get her own needs met. I believe that a T should be thoughtful enough to judge how their actions are going to impact the client before making any decisions about touch or other boundaries. If you are worried and asking "is this going to end in tears" then that would set off an alarm in my head. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to ask those kinds of questions.
Re-reading this, it seems awfully harsh. I'm sorry if it is, but I'm more concerned for you and how this may impact you. I really believe that touch is very primal and visceral, and that the therapy relationship is already charged enough without adding that extra element. I'd also like to add that my own T was far from perfect. He was very careful about boundaries, I think a little too careful in the end, and it ended up hurting me deeply. It still does hurt. It is such a fine line that T's walk, and after all they are only fallible human beings.
Posted by Tamar on April 22, 2005, at 5:15:00
In reply to physical holding, posted by crazymaisie on April 21, 2005, at 23:20:25
I agree with pretty much everything Voce said. I do think touching can be useful in therapy; however it probably needs to be talked about. The fact that you are asking the question suggests to me that you have reached a point where you need to (and are ready to) explore what this kind of holding means to you.
My T never touched me; his boundaries were pretty strict. There were times when I felt it would have helped a lot to hold his hand, just because I wanted basic human contact and comfort. But I never asked because I didn't want him to refuse!
I think it's less likely to end in tears if you talk to your T about it. Can you do that?
Tamar
Posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 7:37:41
In reply to Re: physical holding » crazymaisie, posted by Tamar on April 22, 2005, at 5:15:00
I have very firm personal boundaries, so that touching would send me in a panic. I would run so fast from that office, so for me, it sounds inappropriate. I do not think a T should engage in ongoing physical contact, and of course it is going to be confusing.
But my perspective is just that. One persons opinion. My T is pyschodynamic, so I feel safe knowing she would never touch me.
Now if your T gave you an occasional hug or hand shake (something like that) after a particularly difficult session, that would seem more reasonable to me. I can understand that and that contact would seem appropriate. Stroking of your hair crosses the boundaries for me.
Sorry if I am coming across as harsh. It is not my intent. If you felt comfortable, that would be one thing. But I sense your inner gut is telling you that something is amiss.
Posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 8:24:18
In reply to Re: physical holding, posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 7:37:41
a great deal of my problems stem from the fact that my mother did not provide this very necessary form of affection at any time during my life.
And the need for physical touch IS elemental. Studies have been done on children in Romanian orphanages who are never touched, held, et cetera and have been found to exhibit failure to thrive.
A large part of therapy is getting down to the injured child within us and fixing what was broken way back then.
Is it then wrong to "love the inner child as she should have been loved back then"? Perhaps it is that you need to have that inner child taught that it is important to hold and be held. To have the inner child taught that not all physical touch should be sexual in nature. That to stroke and to hug is to appease pain when done with empathy/sympathy.
I reacted this way to the post because I am one to isolate when hurt because this is what I was "taught to do". It did no good to go to my mother for a hug when I was hurting. I was spurned each time I tried. But when I isolate, there is no appeasement of the pain. It escalates until I am suicidal. It is extremely difficult for me when I am in emotional pain and someone offers to give me a hug. There I was, going through the motions (work, chores, errands, whatever) and someone notices that I seem sad. They ask me if I'm okay, or if I need a hug, and I just freak out- bursting into uncontrollable sobbing, while dealing with a strange "flight or fight" reaction going on inside. After years of therapy, I realized that this is because although it is offered, I am afraid of ultimate rejection after showing this weakness, because my mother always rejected me.
So maybe I would love to have your T. I would love to have someone work with me on HOW to be able to accept consolation and non-sexual intimacy.
Sorry for the long post, but I just had to write what I was feeling when I read your post and the subsequent replies...
-sunny10
Posted by happyflower on April 22, 2005, at 9:06:20
In reply to Re: physical holding (poss trigger), posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 8:24:18
I didn't receive any physical affection from either parent. But now I am married to a hugger family who taught me how good it feels to have this support. It was very hard at first. Thank goodness I overcame the fear of hugs before I had my kids. They are hugged everyday! I wish my T would hug me, but he said he doesn't normally do it unless you are a little child or at the very end of therepy treatment. He said most T are trained not to offer physical affection since he can be taken wrong by the client. But I still wish he would.
Posted by shrinking violet on April 22, 2005, at 9:59:29
In reply to Re: physical holding (poss trigger) » sunny10, posted by happyflower on April 22, 2005, at 9:06:20
Hm, I'm torn down the middle, I think. I agree with Voce's concerns, and your question of "will this end in tears" did cause alarm.
My T holds me, but not in the way yours does. It's more like hugging, I guess, but for a few minutes at a time. My T is in a wheelchair, so if I'm upset she'll come over (usually she'll ask if she can, but sometimes she has on her own) and either I'll kneel down and embrace her and she'll rub my back and talk to me softly while I cry with her, or just let her hold me. At other times, she's come over and rubbed my back with one hand and caressed my face or hair with the other, or she'll just come over and hold my hand. It's hard for her to hug for long periods, b/c her back has been pretty much ruined :-(
I'd LOVE for her to do what your T does....And while I understand the need for it, and understand how it might affect you, I also see how it can be hurtful. My T is the only person in my life (parents/family included) who has been so openly affectionate and caring with me. And next week, I have to terminate with her, so....leaving that behind is going to be VERY hard, if not impossible.
Has your T ever told you why she holds you? Has she asked you, or just does it? Who initiates it? Is it every session? Does she do it with other clients? What would you do/feel if she suddenly stopped doing it?
I don't know...I'm a little worried for you.
Posted by sunny10 on April 22, 2005, at 10:17:16
In reply to Re: physical holding (poss trigger) » sunny10, posted by happyflower on April 22, 2005, at 9:06:20
yes, I hug my child all the time- for some reason it is easier to give/receive love to/from children than adults...
But that's my problem, I guess...
Posted by morning*bell on April 22, 2005, at 11:27:41
In reply to physical holding, posted by crazymaisie on April 21, 2005, at 23:20:25
I've given up hope for a hug. All I want is a brief hand on my shoulder when I'm leaving with tears streaming down my face.
I fear I'm seen as closed off and unwanting of contact. It's not true :(
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 12:22:45
In reply to Re: physical holding, posted by morning*bell on April 22, 2005, at 11:27:41
Yes. We need holding, all of us. I wish you could see you're not alone. I push and push away when all I want is to be pulled towards someone loving. The tears are always just there, justthere.
Posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2005, at 13:17:38
In reply to physical holding, posted by crazymaisie on April 21, 2005, at 23:20:25
I am not against touching per se. But I am a little uncomfortable that you pretyy much lie and put your head on her lap and she strokes your hair.. I am not sure that is very appropriate.
If she were to sit close to you and maybe hold your hand, or pat your back or even give you a warm bear hug the end of the sessions every time would have been totally fine.
This seems little too intimate - and I am thinking how you will take it when it is time to leave her and go.. You will be probably very hurt and confused.
Maybe talk to her about more appropriate physical contact?
Posted by LadyBug on April 22, 2005, at 14:18:56
In reply to Re: physical holding, posted by morning*bell on April 22, 2005, at 11:27:41
I've had 3 hugs in 8 years. they are off limits and the first hug was because it was right before mothers day and we had a good session. I think I caught her off guard. I love my T's explaination of why not hug. She says we need to *talk* about what's behind the hug and what it means to want one. It has worked well for me. Sometimes I wish we could hug, but then I really do like talking about it more. I believe it is wrong even though some believe it is ok. That's just my opinion. I'd be afraid of the rejection and the end of the holding. That would hurt!!
LadyBug
Posted by crazymaisie on April 22, 2005, at 16:46:43
In reply to Re: physical holding, posted by LadyBug on April 22, 2005, at 14:18:56
thanks to everyone for responding so honestly. some of you were worried about being 'too harsh'. but i really wanted some honest outside feedback, so i appreciate that wholeheartedly.
some responses to your questions:
from messadivoce:Are you afraid that if you bring it up, she will stop holding you?
Do you ever feel like the physical holding is something you do to fulfill her own needs?thanks for writing
yes, i certainly feel constrained about bringing up any sexual feelings i have for fear that she might think she is doing something unethical and then stop holding me. but i don't feel there is anything sexual in the holding so i think if she were to stop on that account it would make me feel like those feelings were wrong in some way. i'm actually reasonably comfortable with them so i'd hate to have that happen.also, i know she likes to hold me and i know she gets something out of it too. so, yeah, in some ways i do it to make both of us feel good. i'm confused about that a little. i know i have withheld holding as a punishment to her - that sounds callous, but i realised afterward that that was why i had refused to be held. i'll have to think some more about that one...
from tamar:
I think it's less likely to end in tears if you talk to your T about it. Can you do that?thanks to you, too, for responding. i'm not sure i can talk about it too much. she does ask me what it means to me but it's difficult to put words to the feelings. maybe i'm starting to be ready for it, but i'm kind of afraid to do anything which might bring on a change. i'm sure i shouldn't worry about that and that it's more important to be open, but i'm sure you all know how tricky these things can be in therapy
from annierose:
But I sense your inner gut is telling you that something is amiss.thanks for responding. hmmmm. i wonder. i like it, i like being held. but i am a fully grown woman and it does feel a little strange to me that i should yearn for something like this. another one to give some more thought to.
from sunny10:
Perhaps it is that you need to have that inner child taught that it is
important to hold and be held.i think this is where my t is coming from. this is also probably where i'm coming from. like you i grew up in a household where affection was rare and uncomfortable. i have two kids and i love being affectionate with them. i just wonder if it's too much sometimes.
from shrinkingviolet:
Has your T ever told you why she holds you?
Has she asked you, or just does it?
Who initiates it? Is it every session?
Does she do it with other clients?
What would you do/feel if she suddenly stopped doing it?hi sv, nice to see you posting again. thanks for your reply.
we haven't had an in depth discussion about it, but i think it's the inner child scenario i talked about above which is her motivation. either one of us might initiate it and it happens almost every session. she has told me that she doesn't do it with others, although this was a fraught and difficult conversation. i mean, i should be okay with it if she held other clients, shouldn't i? but you know, i so wouldn't!
i fear the day that she says 'ok, that's enough holding now, back to sitting on seperate chairs'. and therein lies the problem, i suspect.
from pinkeye:
This seems little too intimate -
and I am thinking how you will take it when it is time to leave her and go..
You will be probably very hurt and confused.thanks for posting, pinkeye. yeah, it is very intimate. that can be so nice and feels so good, but as i said above, i dread the day when it ends. i think pretty much everyone pointed out that i should talk more with her about it. i'll try to.
thanks to all for your responses. i know there are people i haven't responded to directly, but i appreciate all the input. and would welcome more...maisie
Posted by thewrite1 on April 23, 2005, at 14:27:12
In reply to physical holding, posted by crazymaisie on April 21, 2005, at 23:20:25
I'll be honest and tell you that I'm really jealous your T does that for you. I've always wanted that from my T and she knows it, but she's never offered. I'm also smart enough to know that it would do nothing but confusing to me. The transference, maternal issues, all that would come up and cause problems and eventually I'd leave her office crying and never go back. I don't want that, but knowing all that doesn't make the longing go away.
This is the end of the thread.
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