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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
The other day, I was telling my T how I don't know what I'm feeling at any given time. I have a list of feeling words and sometimes I'll run down it and I simply cannot tell what's inside me.
I was then saying that I realised that the only way I do know is to look at what I'm thinking, eg if I think "why hasn't she called me, doesn't she like me" I know I'm probably feeling hurt or rejected or confused.
My T then talked about how this was perfectly normal. How feelings are simply thoughts + physiology (ie your heart rate, body temperature, breathing rate, muscle tension, etc).
Now I perfectly agree with the idea that you think something and that leads to your feelings which leads to a change in your physiology. But I don't think I believe that feelings are *just* thoughts + physiology. There's more to it than that but I can't put my finger on what is missing there.
How would you define a feeling? How exactly do you *feel* a feeling? Is it simply a change in physiology or something more? Maybe some sort of sensation inside your head?
Posted by Dinah on January 26, 2005, at 20:33:31
In reply to My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up, posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
Sigh. I hate that model. Hasn't it been scientifically disproved? I'm almost sure it has. I've got the book somewhere.
Feelings are often, but not always, expressed with physiological changes.
Thoughts don't always cause feelings. Feelings can cause thoughts just as easily.
Dang. They've done the research. Do I have the brainpower to find the newest model?
I'll look.
Posted by Susan47 on January 26, 2005, at 20:35:44
In reply to My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up, posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
I really like your doctor's description of feelings. It makes a great deal of sense, to me. And it's hopeful, too, because it implies that we can control our feelings by controlling our thoughts. It means I choose to love because I have loving thoughts....and I choose to hate because I have hateful thoughts... etc etc.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 26, 2005, at 20:56:24
In reply to My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up, posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
Personally, I like a functionalist model of feelings myself. This is unsuprising as I like functionalist models of beliefs and so on and so forth as well...
I used to think that to label a feeling one needed to introspect. To 'look with oneself' and focus on it really hard maybe intensifying it a little and then its name would suddenly come to me.
That didn't work.
It didn't help me name them.
It didn't help me deal with them.
It tended to intensify them.A functionalist model of feelings is a model of what feeling words refer to or pick out. The idea is that
-There are typical situations or events
-There are typical ways of seeing or perceiving, or describing those events
-There are typical 'action urges' that we have as a result of the first two things.Different feeling words (e.g., anger, shame etc) have different sorts of things and perceptions that tend to prompt them, and they tend to result in different action urges.
Linehan's skills training manuel provides lists of the typical things associated with different feelings.
For me there are fairly much two types of emotional states: positive and negative. To do better than that I need to look at the above mentioned things.
This isn't really a theory of what feelings ARE
More a theory of what our feeling terms pick out or refer to.
What makes us 'right' or 'wrong' in labelling a feeling as whatever we try to label it as in a public language...Hope I didn't just twist your brain up even more... :-(
Posted by fallsfall on January 26, 2005, at 21:30:20
In reply to My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up, posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
If you saw the movie "What the bleep do we know", you heard something about peptides. There is a very interesting book, "Molecules of Emotion" by Candace Pratt that explains all about them. It can be heavy going, but she works really hard to explain it in less technical terms. If you haven't seen the movie, you should!! It may still be in a few artsy theaters around (check the map at www.whatthebleep.com), and will be out on DVD on March 15.
Posted by Skittles on January 26, 2005, at 23:43:18
In reply to Re: My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up » littleone, posted by fallsfall on January 26, 2005, at 21:30:20
I LOVED that movie. Leaving the theater and for a couple of days after, I was completely gung ho about changing my thinking. But it wasn't something I could hang onto. When it comes out I'm going to buy it so I can watch it often and not forget the message.
Posted by Susan47 on January 27, 2005, at 11:13:31
In reply to Re: My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up » fallsfall, posted by Skittles on January 26, 2005, at 23:43:18
I'm going to look for that movie too. I wish I'd seen it in theatres. We have an artsy theatre here, I'll check it out. I'm sure if they haven't run it yet, they will. Thanks, fallsfall!
Posted by Shortelise on January 27, 2005, at 13:21:10
In reply to My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up, posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
What a question!
WHen I started therapy, I was the same way, not at all clear about what I was feeling. It did help to see where it was in my body, and then to pay attention to that.
For example, I was scared a lot. It wasn't until I was actually frightened by something physical that I was able to identify it.
But a feeling, how does it feel?
It's almost an awareness for me. When I am sad, I am aware of behind my eyes. Not tears, but just something happens behind my eyes.
When I am anxious, I am aware of my stomach, nausea sometimes, and a taste in my mouth. And that feeling of being frightened, which is in my throat and chest.
From there to figure out why I am having that feeling is not so easy. But that's another kettle of fish.
Hope this helps.
ShortE
Posted by 64bowtie on January 27, 2005, at 16:30:39
In reply to My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up, posted by littleone on January 26, 2005, at 20:23:14
Howdy,
Try reading up on what goes on in the viscera. My viscera is the heart, the stomach, the intestines, and the diaphram (lungs have no muscles to make us breathe.... and let's face it! We all gotta breathe). See how that works? Brain says, "Viscera! this is your job!" Dern if it don't work good, toooo...!
Inside the writings of Antonio Demasio, (U. of Iowa), he and Jean Piaget of 80 years ago, both sense(d) that information traffic for kids passes through their gut (viscera). Other neuro-folks ratify this if you can get them to look in that direction.
The 'jaw-dropping' book about what happens when kids hold onto the model of shunting everything past their gut way into adult life is, "The Second Brain". The author's 'learned' position is that for way toooo many folks, they pander to the whims of their gut out of habits carried forward from their unresolved childhood(s). Czek it out! You may answer your own questions about feelings.
None of this is meant to deminish feelings, but rather to assign them a role in our adult lives. We can better plan our lives and successfully navigate our plans when we know what's going on IRL!
Rod
PS: I suggest all consider mapping out a strategy of balancing feelings, intellect and Intention for daily navigation and problem solving. I suggest folks find their own levels of balance. I suggest the starting point is to assume that 90% of what you are doing today is formed by feelings. Also, assume that this is not anywhere near balanced. ...and go on from there...
Posted by littleone on January 30, 2005, at 20:21:43
In reply to awareness of sensations » littleone, posted by Shortelise on January 27, 2005, at 13:21:10
Thanks for your thoughts ShortE. They do help me.
> What a question!
I know, isn't it horrible. It seems almost a crime to have us come up with answers that even the "experts" can't agree on.
> WHen I started therapy, I was the same way, not at all clear about what I was feeling. It did help to see where it was in my body, and then to pay attention to that.
I think I really need to work on this. I just have a lot of trouble looking inside myself. I get all antsy and my brain glances away. I suppose "antsy" must mean "I feel anxious".> It's almost an awareness for me. When I am sad, I am aware of behind my eyes. Not tears, but just something happens behind my eyes.
>
> When I am anxious, I am aware of my stomach, nausea sometimes, and a taste in my mouth. And that feeling of being frightened, which is in my throat and chest.So do you think the awareness is because you have learnt to read your body signals, ie the changes in breathing, muscle tension, etc, or do you think the awareness is more than your physiology? That there is a *feeling* in addition to your thoughts and physiology.
Posted by littleone on January 30, 2005, at 20:27:21
In reply to Re: My T's talk about feelings has twisted my brain up » littleone, posted by fallsfall on January 26, 2005, at 21:30:20
Thanks for that falls. The movie looks really interesting. I'll have to grab it when it comes out on DVD.
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