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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2004, at 22:31:30
In reply to I agree (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by fires on October 25, 2004, at 20:11:45
Posted by TofuEmmy on October 25, 2004, at 22:55:27
In reply to Re: let's keep this civil, thanks, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2004, at 18:33:16
Could you please clarify your request for civility in this discussion? Was that a PBC to Larry? And just as a side note, the topic of "intent" was NOT brought up by Larry. There were at least two posts *prior* to his which separately discuss intent:
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20041016/msgs/407014.html
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20041016/msgs/407142.htmlJust want to make it clear since if Lar is PBC'd, his next block is way long.
Emmy
P.S. Personally, I think the intent of a post DOES matter, however difficult that may be to judge.
Posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 0:11:57
In reply to [Spock eyebrow] (nm) » fires, posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2004, at 22:31:30
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 26, 2004, at 0:42:28
In reply to Forging false memories, posted by fires on October 24, 2004, at 13:00:23
What is your **intent** by continually bringing up this false memory topic on the psych board?
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 6:58:54
In reply to Re: [Spock eyebrow??? No comprende] (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 0:11:57
Vulcan expression of puzzlement. You agree? You brought it up.
Posted by antigua on October 26, 2004, at 9:46:45
In reply to Re: let's keep this civil, thanks, posted by TofuEmmy on October 25, 2004, at 22:55:27
I assumed the "please be civil" was aimed toward me and not Larry.
antigua
Posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 14:39:31
In reply to Forging false memories in regard to what?, posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 26, 2004, at 0:42:28
> What is your **intent** by continually bringing up this false memory topic on the psych board?
See: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20041016/msgs/407164.html
Posted by tryingtobewise on October 26, 2004, at 15:23:34
In reply to Re: Forging or praying for false memories » Speaker, posted by fires on October 25, 2004, at 0:07:54
Honestly, I can see why this would be a relevant topic for this board. While I do not believe I have ever been compelled (either willingly or unknowlingly) to disclose what was in fact a false memory, I have been guilty of becoming "overly invested" in the exagerrated impact a real memory (or memories) has had in my life & development. Doing this has served a couple of purposes:
1. It has validated for me my continued *need* to be in therapy when instinct told me I could probably wrap things up.
2. It has made my therapist feel sucessful in getting to the "roots" of my problems and has given us stuff to work with when in reality there probably wasn't much need to.Kim
Posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 15:56:25
In reply to Re: Forging or praying for false memories, posted by tryingtobewise on October 26, 2004, at 15:23:34
Perhaps the following demonstration test for false memories may indicate a susceptibility toward developing them? Found it at Nat. Public Radio site by False Memory article/info.. Anyway it's interesting:
http://www.mmlc.northwestern.edu/external/paller/memory-demo_content.html
Posted by lifeworthliving on October 26, 2004, at 16:27:51
In reply to Take a test, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 15:56:25
i took the test and thought it interesting. my numbers were 93% (for accuracy) and the others 0% (can remember what this was for?), and 67% (for false memory). i wasn't really able to find a way to tie the significance of this memeory test to the memories of childhood experiences. of course i don't remember if it was a red or green apple, or was that a grape and not an apple? and like a poster mentioned previously about the bank robbery, all might not recall the more "minor" details, or describe them the same way, but all would agree that they had witnessed a robbery. i'm confident that what i remember is true... even when i doubt.
life
Posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 16:47:34
In reply to Re: Take a test, posted by lifeworthliving on October 26, 2004, at 16:27:51
... and like a poster mentioned previously about the bank robbery, all might not recall the more "minor" details, or describe them the same way, but all would agree that they had witnessed a robbery. i'm confident that what i remember is true... even when i doubt.
> lifeYeah, but it's so easy to be fooled by one's "memories":
Great article:
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/39/features-abramsky.php
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 16:50:33
In reply to Take a test, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 15:56:25
> Perhaps the following demonstration test for false memories may indicate a susceptibility toward developing them? Found it at Nat. Public Radio site by False Memory article/info.. Anyway it's interesting:
>
> http://www.mmlc.northwestern.edu/external/paller/memory-demo_content.htmlI doubt it. There are different types of memory, declarative (semantic and episodic), and procedural. Some also include propositional constructs as memory. There are also different types of memory tests, which do not rely on trivial distinctions such as whether a particular fruit was depicted, rather than fruit per se. Memory traces have multiple paths, and tests such as this one trace only a single path. Moreover, there was a distracting cognitive task in this test, determining relative size as against a shoebox. This activates a different memory trace altogether, and serves to reduce overall recall.
You can ask me weeks from now, and I will predict that my scores of 80%, 0%, and 0% will still be in my declarative memory. Even if I fail in that regard, however, I will have no doubt whatsoever that I took a memory test suggested by you.
Lar
Posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 17:15:41
In reply to Re: Take a test » fires, posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 16:50:33
> > Perhaps the following demonstration test for false memories may indicate a susceptibility toward developing them? Found it at Nat. Public Radio site by False Memory article/info.. Anyway it's interesting:
> >
> > http://www.mmlc.northwestern.edu/external/paller/memory-demo_content.html
>
> I doubt it. There are different types of memory, declarative (semantic and episodic), and procedural. Some also include propositional constructs as memory. There are also different types of memory tests, which do not rely on trivial distinctions such as whether a particular fruit was depicted, rather than fruit per se. Memory traces have multiple paths, and tests such as this one trace only a single path. Moreover, there was a distracting cognitive task in this test, determining relative size as against a shoebox. This activates a different memory trace altogether, and serves to reduce overall recall.
>
> You can ask me weeks from now, and I will predict that my scores of 80%, 0%, and 0% will still be in my declarative memory. Even if I fail in that regard, however, I will have no doubt whatsoever that I took a memory test suggested by you.
>
> Lar
>Consider that someone may be able to convince you that you took another test which you didn't!
Posted by partlycloudy on October 26, 2004, at 17:33:51
In reply to Re: Take a test » fires, posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 16:50:33
Hi, Lar. I took a recruiting course from a business school in England, designed to address the 95% replacement rate in the staff in stores which I managed. We used a series of questions, delivered in rapid succession, that resulted in the interviewees recounting real experiences, rather than trying to make themselves sound good in an interview.
It was very interesting what they would reveal - even if it jeopardized their jobs. You'd get people admitting they would wake up on a Monday and decide they "just didn't feel up to" a full day of work, and so would call in sick. It resulted in a very focused recruitment effort on the management's part that, after a year, had no staff members leave - an unheard of record in retail. The recruitment focused on finding those who were extremely loyal, had no problem with frequently altered schedules, who were happy with very little pay.just my little story.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 22:26:12
In reply to Re: Take a test » Larry Hoover, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 17:15:41
> > You can ask me weeks from now, and I will predict that my scores of 80%, 0%, and 0% will still be in my declarative memory. Even if I fail in that regard, however, I will have no doubt whatsoever that I took a memory test suggested by you.
> >
> > Lar
> >
>
> Consider that someone may be able to convince you that you took another test which you didn't!You see, that stretches the word "may" way way out.....as I would put that likelihood at something like 0.001% probability. Yes it may happen, but it is very darned unlikely to be so.
Posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 23:30:28
In reply to Re: Take a test, posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 22:26:12
> > > You can ask me weeks from now, and I will predict that my scores of 80%, 0%, and 0% will still be in my declarative memory. Even if I fail in that regard, however, I will have no doubt whatsoever that I took a memory test suggested by you.
> > >
> > > Lar
> > >
> >
> > Consider that someone may be able to convince you that you took another test which you didn't!
>
> You see, that stretches the word "may" way way out.....as I would put that likelihood at something like 0.001% probability. Yes it may happen, but it is very darned unlikely to be so.
>Maybe in your case the probability is quite low, but in several studies about 30% of people do believe totally false memories:
Link posted earlier:
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/AmerPsychAward+ArticlePDF03%20(2).pdf
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 27, 2004, at 1:55:20
In reply to Re: Take a test » Larry Hoover, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 23:30:28
So, presuming this stuff you keep presenting this board with is true. They the "False Memory believers" think that most of what our memory bank is false. With all due respect, Fires, are you trying to say you have false memories?
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2004, at 7:50:03
In reply to Re: Take a test » lifeworthliving, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 16:47:34
> ... and like a poster mentioned previously about the bank robbery, all might not recall the more "minor" details, or describe them the same way, but all would agree that they had witnessed a robbery. i'm confident that what i remember is true... even when i doubt.
> > life
>
> Yeah, but it's so easy to be fooled by one's "memories":
>
> Great article:
> http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/39/features-abramsky.phpWell, yes and no.
I find it intriguing that Loftus was alleged to have manipulated the respondent in the legal action, the child's mother, "...Loftus went beyond the bounds of academic research, by “befriending” Jane Doe’s mother to the point where she would provide a willing audience for poetry the mother had written, by coaching her to believe she had not abused her daughter decades earlier..." Let's see, an expert in the manipulation of memory tampering with a witness' memory, to win a legal action, and to "prove" a point?
We'll leave that aside for now, but I really think you should also read Heaps and Nash, and Huffman et al. (Pubmed abstracts #'s 11486925, 12199217, 9479481. Just plug the numbers into the search bar).
About memory in therapy (e.g. cognitive behavioural therapy)....
One of the goals of CBT is to change the interpretion of life experiences, the process I summarize as "same facts, different conclusions". In this case, the "facts" are memories, plain and simple. For good or ill, that is all there is to work from. With respect to memories from childhood, there are certain features of a child's perspective that do not carry over into adulthood (cognitive schemae unique to periods of development, as described by e.g. Piaget), but the memory itself retains them. Without realizing it, an adult is also remembering the viewpoint of the child. That can be reassessed. There are many factors influencing the emotional impact of a memory that can be reassessed. The point is to diminish the maladaptive characteristics of memory, and to enhance the adaptive.
I think it is an exceedingly important issue to consider the use to which those memories are to be put. In the general case, I do not believe that memories ought to be used to blame another person for causing hurt. Attribution, distinct from blame, is part of the process of defining boundaries, i.e. that which is in your private realm, and that which is not. "I am hurt" is not equivalent to "You hurt me". The important issue with the memories is what they mean to you, their private meaning, and how they influence current states of mind.
The second aspect of CBT, and the one least often adequately explored (IMHO), is the behavioural component. All the thinking in the world will not effect the changes that one seeks in therapy. One must act differently to become different. You must have new types of experience to serve as memories to enable new thinking. As I was taught, "You can't think your way into a new way of acting, you act your way into a new way of thinking." You may have to think your way towards preparing yourself for new acts, but in the end, you must act.
All in all, these reflections on memory, in the therapeutic process, are private acts. The external validity of the memories is moot.
It seems to me that what you protest is the use of memory alone to cast blame. And in particular, the special case of recovered memories.
I agree with you that this use of memory, to cast blame, takes us towards the limits to which memory alone can reasonably be taken. Absent external validation or corroboration, we are left with the classic conundrum of who to believe. Judges, for example, make these decisions for a living. Again, for good or ill, this is sometimes all that we have to work with. An aphorism in the legal realm is that there are three sides to every story...your side, the other guy's side, and the truth.
Innocent people do get convicted, sometimes of horrific crimes for which there is no evidence beyond the circumstantial.
This leads me to what I see to be the nexus of our own disputations, fires. It would seem to me (I'm left with implications, as you do not present clear positions)....it would seem to me that you are suggesting that all criminal/civil actions for which there is no corroborative evidence be suppressed....that memory ought never to be given credence.....perhaps even in that private realm of insight-based therapies?
Yes, it is indeed possible that memories, even detailed traumatic memories, can be fabricated. However, it is also possible that fabricated memories can be distinguished from factual ones. That's why I suggested you follow up on those other memory researchers' work. There are distinctive attributes of false memories.
I have made explicit reference to this before, but in closing, I'm going to refer to it again. The issue of the veracity of memory is not a black and white issue. The limiting conditions are fully true and fully false, but there is an infinite realm of shades of gray, a continuum, in between. And it matters, too, to what purpose recall is put.
The collective of human thought is not a stable entity. Recent advances in DNA technology have forced us to reconsider eye-witness testimony, for example. What has come clear is that the very sort of specific recall most relied on in eye-witness testimony is also the most frangible, the most subject to external influence, the "minor" details that combine to uniquely identify a stranger, for example. That does not invalidate the entirety of the testimony. That doesn't mean the witness wasn't there, and didn't see what happened. Describing what happened with 100% accuracy is more difficult than anyone realized before. The devil is in the details.
We are still left with what we had before, though. There is no absolute test for credibility, yet we have no choice but to decide. The decision in criminal law is "beyond any reasonable doubt", not "beyond any doubt". In civil law, the decision is "on the balance of probabilities".
We have a legal system, not a justice system. We will not have the latter until we infallibility in the people who participate. Rest assured, those who need to know that, already do.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2004, at 8:00:48
In reply to Re: Take a test » lifeworthliving, posted by fires on October 26, 2004, at 16:47:34
> > i'm confident that what i remember is true... even when i doubt.
>
> Yeah, but it's so easy to be fooled by one's "memories":Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by fires on October 27, 2004, at 9:45:36
In reply to Re: Take a test, posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 27, 2004, at 1:55:20
Posted by fires on October 27, 2004, at 11:24:30
In reply to Re: Take a test » fires, posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2004, at 7:50:03
> > ... and like a poster mentioned previously about the bank robbery, all might not recall the more "minor" details, or describe them the same way, but all would agree that they had witnessed a robbery. i'm confident that what i remember is true... even when i doubt.
> > > life
> >
> > Yeah, but it's so easy to be fooled by one's "memories":
> >
> > Great article:
> > http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/39/features-abramsky.php
>
> Well, yes and no.
>
> I find it intriguing that Loftus was alleged to have manipulated the respondent in the legal action, the child's mother, "...Loftus went beyond the bounds of academic research, by “befriending” Jane Doe’s mother to the point where she would provide a willing audience for poetry the mother had written, by coaching her to believe she had not abused her daughter decades earlier..." Let's see, an expert in the manipulation of memory tampering with a witness' memory, to win a legal action, and to "prove" a point?
<snip>
Ah, you seem to have had a memory lapse!
You stated: "Let's see, an expert in the manipulation of memory tampering with a witness' memory, to win a legal action, and to "prove" a point?"Actually, the article reads, like you wrote:
"Loftus was alleged to have manipulated the respondent in the legal action, the child's mother..."
Alleged.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2004, at 11:51:07
In reply to Re: Take a test, posted by fires on October 27, 2004, at 11:24:30
> > I find it intriguing that Loftus was alleged to have manipulated the respondent in the legal action, the child's mother, "...Loftus went beyond the bounds of academic research, by “befriending” Jane Doe’s mother to the point where she would provide a willing audience for poetry the mother had written, by coaching her to believe she had not abused her daughter decades earlier..." Let's see, an expert in the manipulation of memory tampering with a witness' memory, to win a legal action, and to "prove" a point?
> <snip>
> Ah, you seem to have had a memory lapse!
>
>
> You stated: "Let's see, an expert in the manipulation of memory tampering with a witness' memory, to win a legal action, and to "prove" a point?"
>
> Actually, the article reads, like you wrote:
>
> "Loftus was alleged to have manipulated the respondent in the legal action, the child's mother..."
>
> Alleged.No memory lapse. Read the opening sentence of the paragraph now at the top of this post. I said that, "...Loftus was alleged...".
A lawsuit is an allegation, and the respondent's expert witness is alleged to have tampered.
The issue becomes one of credibility, not truth, as I argued in the rest of my prior post.
Lar
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 27, 2004, at 16:34:30
In reply to No (nm) » Shadowplayers721, posted by fires on October 27, 2004, at 9:45:36
If this research is true, then everyone has memory banks full of invalid data. This means that no one has the truth of their own history or of someone else's dirty deeds. So if I ask anyone of their history they can't really tell the truth. It's full of holes. Right? That's what the false memory believers want others to believe. One can say, yes I can remember my teachers, the street I grew up on, my playmates names, ..... Or do I? Do you? Can you be sure?
If you say you were abused from memory, that's not true.. it's full of holes... Remember everyone's memory is full of false information. I get it. Did you get it? Or did someone plant that info in your head? Yeah right. That's what my perp would love for me to believe. Get him off the hook and about 15 other suffers.
Posted by fires on October 27, 2004, at 16:42:11
In reply to What all this repeated info is really saying...., posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 27, 2004, at 16:34:30
> If this research is true, then everyone has memory banks full of invalid data. This means that no one has the truth of their own history or of someone else's dirty deeds. So if I ask anyone of their history they can't really tell the truth. It's full of holes. Right? That's what the false memory believers want others to believe. One can say, yes I can remember my teachers, the street I grew up on, my playmates names, ..... Or do I? Do you? Can you be sure?
>
> If you say you were abused from memory, that's not true.. it's full of holes... Remember everyone's memory is full of false information. I get it. Did you get it? Or did someone plant that info in your head? Yeah right. That's what my perp would love for me to believe. Get him off the hook and about 15 other suffers.Nope. Real memories are the hardest to "bury", suppress, repress,etc... Ask any victim of a natural disaster or real abuse. There is no such thing as repressed memories (science based evience of). Memories created under hypnosis or coercion/suggestion are false (in the absence of brain trauma), as the research shows.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 27, 2004, at 20:12:32
In reply to What all this repeated info is really saying...., posted by Shadowplayers721 on October 27, 2004, at 16:34:30
Shadows,
It's important to note that in the study fires cited, there were only 11 participants, and 8 of them were men. Hardly a representative sample. The results cannot be generalized to the entire population or even to those who have experienced recovered memories. The results are hardly robust at this point. It's a preliminary study, not a stand-alone piece of work.gg
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