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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Poet on September 9, 2004, at 18:42:10
In reply to In defense of Male Therapist, posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 18:37:38
I can't talk about sex with my female T or male pdoc. Blushing, stammering and yes or no is about all I can do.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 19:18:10
In reply to In defense of Male Therapist, posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 18:37:38
It's not that I have any trouble talking to my therapist. I don't. Not at all. I'm not really shy about sex. And it's not that he's actually insensitive. He's not. But I do get the distinct feeling that he feels sorry for my husband, sexually speaking, and that feels judgemental to me. He doesn't say so, of course. But I'm pretty sure I'm right.
And I'm not sure a man can understand... Oh how to put this... There's no mistaking who's blitzkrieg Germany and who's Poland in sex, you know?
Posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 19:52:46
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger* » daisym, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 19:18:10
I don't know Dinah, I know some awfully agressive women. One of my best friends is ummm, very adventurous! She complains that her husband isn't active enough. And she has all kind of toys, etc. I'm often shocked and often amused. And glad it's not me!
I have learned not to share her stories with my hubby. He looks way to interested. *sigh*
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:04:45
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger*, posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 19:52:46
First time I pick up on a "I sure feel sorry for her husband" vibe, i'm outta there. I can get that for free.
But I was referring to the actual logistics. Not adventurousness. :)
Posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 20:34:33
In reply to Re: Sex therapy, posted by Racer on September 9, 2004, at 15:53:17
I love the Good Vibrations book. I gave a copy of it to a young woman I know who was just starting to get sexually active. She was amazed that a 200 page book had only about 3 pages on vaginal intercourse ;) I've been with my husband sexually for over 30 years, and we didn't start to have a decent sex life for the last 5 or so, since we started using a vibrator. I'm hard to stimulate, mostly for psych reasons, and a sex toy makes it easier for me in lots of ways. I have talked with my T many times about sex, I think it's easier since I lie on a couch and don't have to look at him. He has helped me tremendously in understanding why sex is so hard for me. I don't like to be touched and I like to be in control, two things that aren't really compatable with a good sex life. Sex feels like submission to me when according to my T it should feel like surrender, a distinction that took me a long time to understand. I think it has helped me at times to have a male perspective. My husband went through a time where he was having problems in the performance department. I of course thought it was because I am not sexually attractive. My T told me that whatever the problem was he was quite sure it was not because I wasn't sexually attractive. That felt good to hear even if I don't really believe it.
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 20:38:12
In reply to In defense of Male Therapist, posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 18:37:38
When I read this in your post, the little light bulb over my head clicked on and I had an ah-hah! "Turns out I'm uncomfortable taking...because I'm not sure when my turn is suppose to end and his begins." Thank you so much for sharing.. is this a common experience then?
Posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 20:41:40
In reply to In defense of Male Therapist, posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 18:37:38
>
> We talked about giving and receiving and how it feels to be sexually selfish. Now this isn't something I've ever thought about before. Turns out I'm uncomfortable taking...because I'm not sure when my turn is suppose to end and his begins. It is a life-pattern, always meet everyone else's needs, and it spills over, even into sex.
>My T talks about the same thing, but he calls it subject and object. Sometimes you're the subject and sometimes you're the object. I want to be the object but my desire for control makes that really hard, and my husband is would like to the subject more often but his desire to please makes it easier for him to be the object. We have learned to trade off the roles but it's hard sometimes. When we can it makes our sex better..and anything is better than the awful way it used to be. As Daisy says above, it isn't just about sex, it just lops over into the bedroom.
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 20:54:23
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 20:41:40
Lucy your posts really made me think about sex as surrender. I used to feel that way about sex. I don't know what happened but somewhere in the single years I couldn't do that anymore. When I could, sex was fantastic. I never once surrendered to my last husband, not that I can recall at any rate. Never had an O with him either, unless I was ... imagining something else.
Okay. Now I know why I had sexual feelings for my therapist. It makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe I can think things through a bit now, oh gawd. Nevertheless it doesn't change the fact that he's drop dead gorgeous. God I had such a double whammy. Therapists like him ought to be illegal. Ew ew ew.
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:59:04
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist » lucy stone, posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 20:54:23
I see I have years of sex therapy ahead of me. These issues are the equivilant to a doctoral thesis for a kindergartner. grin.
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 21:05:05
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:59:04
Posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 21:14:46
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:59:04
> I see I have years of sex therapy ahead of me. These issues are the equivilant to a doctoral thesis for a kindergartner. grin.
I'm in my 50s and have been with the same guy for over 30 years and we are just now starting to figure it out, largely because of the work I am doing in my analysis. Better late than never, I guess.
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 21:14:46
I'm not far behind you. Forties. With same guy for 25+ years, married over ten.
But my problems are so very basic. I couldn't kiss my dates back when I was dating because kissing felt like being smothered. My now husband was the only exception. But years into our relationship that smothering fear came back. Touching is an irritant. Intercourse is painful.
And trying to do anything to make any of it better *feels* like I'm being a facilitator to my own... Oh never mind. But the upshot is that I sabotage any attempts on my part to make things any better.
With that level of dysfunction and that much resistance to change, this latest effort is also doomed to failure and I might as well give up and cancel and save myself the money and stress.
Posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 22:38:48
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
Don't give up before you get started!
I know that smothered feeling. I float away more than 50% of the time these days and just let it happen. And then I have an emotional melt down later. I tell myself often that it isn't my husband's fault that I don't enjoy sex or that it stirs up such intense memories for me. I'm really trying hard to meet his needs and still protect myself. It is all complicated by my husband's illnesses which makes sex for him much more challenging...you can't "just" do it. Timing is everything.
One of the things my therapist asked me is what do I "like"...what would make it perfect for me? It was an amazing thing to realize that I've never thought about what I like...which, of course, was his whole point.
I'm not a martyr by any stretch. It just is one more thing that stresses an already stressed household. So it would be nice to have more clarity about what my mind and body want.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 9, 2004, at 22:44:56
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
Dinah, please don't give up your courageous quest. One very interesting thing to look into is Flomax (generic tamulosin), It's used for painful intercourse and penetration, though it's not yet very well known for that. It's a safe drug; Dr, Mulhall, at Sloan-Kettering in New York has pioneered the use of it for painful intercourse; you could call him, or ask your doctor to call for you. We discovered it because my husband developed pain with erections after prostate surgery for cancer. He just went into a cascade of negative feelings (it hurts, it's no longer a pleasure, I can't do it any more, I feel so guilty and worthless, etc.). The Flomax took away the pain entirely, and he's been able to slowly rebuild his confidence and ability to experience pleasure. Sex isn't quite as spontaneous or easy after that surgery, but the Flomax (and Viagra as needed) has helped us keep going as sexual partners. I don't know for sure if it can be as effective in women as in men, but I think it can be.
Posted by crushedout on September 9, 2004, at 22:46:15
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger* » daisym, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 19:18:10
In *heterosexual* sex, yes, that's true. (Sorry, just always have to point out when people forget about gay sex, which has a completely different dynamic, obviously.)
Posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 0:12:32
In reply to Sex therapy, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 13:15:26
I've just caught up with this thread. How brave of you, Dinah. I hope you'll keep us updated. I'm curious how a sex therapist can help.
Posted by daisym on September 10, 2004, at 0:14:24
In reply to help for painful intercourse » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 9, 2004, at 22:44:56
I have to ask, and of course, you don't have to answer...
Did you find dealing with your husband's sexual difficulties triggering at all? It seems that I take so much of his struggle on myself and it is just so hard to not get freaked about not being able to meet these needs. Even when the performance stuff is medically based.
Of course, I think I have to solve all the world's problems.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 0:39:09
In reply to Re: help for painful intercourse » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 10, 2004, at 0:14:24
I certainly did find it triggering. Before we got some help, I caught myself thinking *I* was actually the cause of his problems- for not being as young and sexy as I once was, (etc.) It's helped us a lot to have a doctor we can both see and confide in. He's also helped us face the realities of what prostate cancer can do to a man's sexual desire and ability- to lower our expectations some, and, most of all, to enjoy what we still can have together. I think the doctor (a specialist in physically-caused sexual dysfunction) helped most of all. He has had so much experience, and gave us a clear and very supportive message, that, while my husband had been through a serious illness (surgery followed by radiation), all was not lost. Shifting away a bit from performance-oriented sex to a more Tantric kind has also helped take a lot of the pressure off him. I love it because it emphasizes closeness
Posted by lucy stone on September 10, 2004, at 5:52:55
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
> I'm not far behind you. Forties. With same guy for 25+ years, married over ten.
>
> But my problems are so very basic. I couldn't kiss my dates back when I was dating because kissing felt like being smothered. My now husband was the only exception. But years into our relationship that smothering fear came back. Touching is an irritant. Intercourse is painful.
>
> And trying to do anything to make any of it better *feels* like I'm being a facilitator to my own... Oh never mind. But the upshot is that I sabotage any attempts on my part to make things any better.
>
> With that level of dysfunction and that much resistance to change, this latest effort is also doomed to failure and I might as well give up and cancel and save myself the money and stress.
>
I'm not fond of being kissed, even by my husband, but it sounds like you are more adverse to it than I am. I also don't find sexual touching particularly arousing unless I am doing the touching because of my control issues. That's where a vibrator helps us, he can do the stimulating without directly touching me. Dysfunctional, I know. I didn't say it was perfect, just better. You could get the surgery your gyn recommended to help with the painful intercourse. I'm resonably certain that she could find a way to code it that would make the insurance company pay. Do you think your T could help you with the resistance to change at all? I have told my T that sometimes I feel like giving up on the whole sex thing altogether and he says of course that's an option but I can tell he doesn't think it's one I should exercise. He wants me to live a fuller life in all ways and sex is part of that. If you T could help with the resistance the sex therapist is much more likely to be able to help the dysfunction.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 10, 2004, at 9:14:47
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by lucy stone on September 10, 2004, at 5:52:55
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
In reply to Dinah, I hope this endeavor helps! (nm), posted by gardenergirl on September 10, 2004, at 9:14:47
My therapist withdrew his support for the endeavor after discovering that I had absolutely no intention of discussing ego states at all. I was planning to discuss the meat of the matter, but not use those words, by saying "Intellectually I know that ...., but I can't stop feeling ...." To me, that's the same thing and I don't get what the big deal is.
But he says it's leading her to believe that she is dealing with one thing (ambivilance) instead of something completely different (a different attitude towards sexuality between two ego states that are neither of them the slightest bit ambivilant). I don't understand why that's important.
So I called and left a message to that effect. Well, not that I don't understand why it's an important distinction, but the ego state stuff. And told her I would completely understand if she didn't want to deal with such nonsense. Not that I put it exactly that way, of course. :) But she'll likely bail and the point will be moot.
And my therapist isn't as stupid as he sounded last evening. He did note the timing and guess that part of the intent was to lessen the shameful dependence on him, tho he put it differently of course.
So unless you hear otherwise, my sex experiment is likely over before it begins.
Posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 12:45:54
In reply to Quite probably over before it begins, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
this may be a dumb question, but why don't you want to talk about ego states with her?
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:10:14
In reply to Quite probably over before it begins, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
Hi Dinah,
Maybe she'll leave ego states out of it? It sounds like your therapist is trying to tell your potential sex therapist how she should work with you. Shouldn't the sex therapist determine that?
Just a thought.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
In reply to Re: Quite probably over before it begins » Dinah, posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:10:14
And probably need to lie down for a bit. But the overview is that my regular therapist thinks *all* therapists deserve to work with full information and that I would be misleading her particularly in this case because the resistance and fear, etc. is particularly related to ego states. He also thinks sex therapy just wouldn't work under those conditions.
Seems like the sex therapist agrees. She just called me back. Said she was "willing" to see me Wednesday as scheduled, wouldn't require that I actually talk about ego states as she thinks she understands what I mean, but would require that I sign a release allowing her to talk to xxx so that they could decide if it was in my best interests to continue on with her. There was a note of extreme caution in her voice that let me know the conclusion is pretty much foregone. Especially since my therapist didn't seem to keen on the idea today.
People just don't want to get involved in anything with ego states involved. It's scary to them. This is why I try to keep it a secret. My therapist is ok with it, but most therapists would run incontinently from the merest mention. H*ll, mine would have too, if he had known what he was taking on.
Sigh. So my fears of rejection over this issue are yet again confirmed. And my therapist wonders why I feel so much shame about it.
I'm going to bed.
Unless someone's able to meet me in Open to divert me until my therapist calls back, goodness only knows when. I'm trying to decide if it's even worth the bother. I imagine she doesn't want to take the time to talk to my therapist until I've forked over a fee. Because otherwise I can't imagine why she wants to go through the charade of seeing me before rejecting me.
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:58:14
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
All you wanted to do was help yourself and you end up feeling bad about yourself. Something is not right here and I don't think it's with you.
I can hang with you in open and try to divert you with stories of my worst job interviews or whatever I can think of that doesn't involve therapy. Or take a nap with Harry, I think he has healing properties.
Poet
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