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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 53. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
Yesterday I was pretty upset by the time I left my session. We've accessed another set of memories, a different age perspective and this one is full of so much pain and fear and huge amounts of distrust. My therapist kept asking questions, reality testing I think and I kept saying, "I don't know." Mostly I was trying to explain why I felt responsible and he was closely questioning those beliefs. In the end, I asked him if he was mad at me for not having any answers. He was surprised that I thought he was mad.
I called a couple of hours later and said I didn't think I should come anymore this week. We weren't getting anywhere and I thought he needed a break before he became frustrated with "I don't know." Besides, I just didn't think I could cope with anymore. He called back (of course) and in his most gentle way, insisted that I come back today, that he wasn't at all frustrated, just really scared for me. He said he could see that I was coming apart and he wanted me to be safe. He talked for a long time about going slow and figuring out why I was feeling the need to pull back. I was sitting outside on my swing and it was really calming, just having him talk to me as I rocked back and forth.
So I kept my promise and went today. We spent the session processing my feelings about him and actually about getting support for all of this in general. I asked a million questions about how he thought I was doing, was I too emotional? Should I fight to close down these feelings more? Or let them out more? Did other clients get like this? Should I cut back my time? and on and on...
He was great. He said he wasn't holding back anything, that he was being truthful when he said he wasn't frustrated with how things were going and was completely available to me. He said I wasn't giving enough credit to the strength of our bond, that it worked both ways and he couldn't imagine anything I could do that would "mess it up." I said I had a number of fantasies about what could happen to him or to our therapy relationship, so we went through them. I made him laugh at some of them. (Eaten by tigers...)
Then I seriously asked him if he understood HOW IMPORTANT this relationship was. Did he really know what it would do to me to give in completely to it and then have it go south? That I would do anything to not destroy it, but I didn't want to be destroyed by it either? Did he get that? I love his answer...he said not only did he understand how important our relationship was to me, but that he held the therapeutic relationship as a sacred trust. That he viewed the responsibility as huge and it was highly likely that I would be ready to give it up before he was. And he said all this in such a gentle, steady way that I finally, finally, felt like he was really back from vacation and we were connected again.
So...do you think that was a strange thing to ask? In retrospect, I hope he doesn't think I was questioning his professionalism or commitment to being a Therapist. *sigh* There should be a rule about rethinking sessions. (It's OK, I still feel so much better than yesterday that I don't *really* regret asking.)
Posted by fallsfall on September 1, 2004, at 21:26:47
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
It sounds like exactly the right conversation.
You had worries, concerns. You asked him about them and he told you truthfully how he felt and what he thought.
That was exactly what you needed. So how could it be "a strange thing to ask"?
>>I hope he doesn't think I was questioning his professionalism or commitment to being a Therapist.
No, he knows that your questions were all about you - not about him. Just as they should be.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 1, 2004, at 21:27:05
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
Wow,
Of course as always I am in awe of your T. And of your ability to form this connection despite how scary it is to you. He's a peach. You're a peach.Did I mention I bought new shoes today? Shopping therapy. Hope it helps...
(((((Daisy)))))
gg
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 21:36:34
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
What you're worried about isn't strange at all- not the least bit. I am always amazed at how your therapist works. He seems so good at getting unknown parts of you into the therapy hours. The parts he helps to get in there have terrifying memories and viewpoints of their own, but I'm assuming the fears- of being too open, too dependent, too needy, and at the same time, very afraid that they won't be able to connect with him- are THEIR fears- fragments of childhood fears which have been hidden inside you for all these years.
If you could just *stay* on the surface, and be the adult you, you probably would not be nearly as worried about all these feelings. The adult *you* seems to know just how wonderful, steady and caring he is- think of the wonderful thoughts about the "sacred trust", and about HIM not being ready to let you go before you are ready. It's the childhood parts who are still very unsure tht they have found such a wonderful, safe person to share themselves with.
I'm going through the same process, and it helps me to think about your feelings, as they are so similiar to my own! I can talk about memories of abuse much more easily now, but I still get blind-sided by the extreme amounts of fear and uncertainty my own child-parts have in relation to my analyst. Sometimes they are so unsure if he is actually there or not; I find myself saying, "you're there, right? Where are you? Who are you? It seems like you're not there", and finally, "Oh. OK. you're there. I know it" - on and on. I feel so foolish saying these things over and over, but, each time, he takes them so seriously. He speaks directly to those parts, saying, "yes, I am here" "I am your doctor" "I am not going to leave you" "I am taking care of you". I guess it sounds a little silly in print, but the child parts of me listen so intently, and seem to want to hear him say it over and over.
Posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 21:59:27
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 21:36:34
I know exactly what you mean about needing to hear, "I'm still here" over and over again. And the smallest whisper of "promise?" always slips out and he always very seriously answers "promise!" So very young, isn't it?
He asked me today if I took out his picture last night when I was having such a hard time. I was surprised and said, "no, I put it away." He said I needed to let "her" (my younger self) see it, hold it, as much as she needs to. That it was OK with him for her to want to do that. That is why he gave it to her.
I think you are right, the fear that unfolds with these memories is fresh and real. And I'm terrified of getting into trouble for talking about all of this, at the same time NEEDING to talk about all this. We talked today about this war going on between the adult and child parts and how much both needed him, but needed different things. He said again that he can handle the push/pull. He told the adult she was doing an amazing job hanging in there, that most people would have quit therapy by now. He told the child it was totally OK to be weepy in therapy, that he knew she was scared but that he would take care of her. It was really important that both of these parts heard him today. Really, really important.
Are you able to let your younger self talk to your adult self yet? It is an interesting exercise.
Posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:02:10
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » daisym, posted by fallsfall on September 1, 2004, at 21:26:47
Thanks Falls. And thanks for being around last night, like you always are when I need you. I should pay you too. :)
I was thinking maybe I needed to tell him that I didn't mean to imply that he was ever nonchalante about my feelings. But your post made me feel better. And your right, I'm sure he knows where all this was coming from.
Posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:05:54
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by gardenergirl on September 1, 2004, at 21:27:05
Maybe that is why I've been having such a hard time...I haven't been shoe shopping for a month! I'm sure you are just as sensitive with your clients, GG. I'm glad you don't mind me sharing as much as I do. I tend to get wordy, sorting things out for myself as I write. I go back and reread things and think, he is pretty good at this, isn't he?
So, what do your new shoes look like? High heels, I hope!
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 21:59:27
No, I haven't been able to do that yet, although my analyst often asks if she can speak to me. I speak a lot to her; he has been encouraging me to understand and comfort her; when I feel at my most upset, I can almost always calm down quite a lot if I try to think of things from her point of view. I often imagine consoling her by stroking her blonde pigtails. It's almost a sure way to fall asleep!
She doesn't speak yet, but she does speak in dreams. In them, she has rearranged the analyst's office, bringing in her favorite toys and animals from her childhood, changed the couch to a different location, etc. Then she said, "OK! Now I'm at home. Now I can tell you things, and it will help me a lot". And she does, a bit more, each day.
I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 22:42:42
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
I think mine does, finally. It took him a long time to understand it fully. But I'm reasonably sure he now does.
But then I didn't tell him as directly as you did, and I didn't tell him all in one session. I'm not sure I ever said it directly. But I said it indirectly often enough for him to understand it (finally).
Keep in mind that my therapist is nowhere near as nurturing and supportive as yours is. It's difficult for me to talk about the depth of my attachment to him because I always had some idea that it would scare him. And G*d's honest truth, I think it did at first. Or it would have (even more than it actually did) if I hadn't danced around it a lot. He must have gotten some supervision or personal therapy or something, because he seems ok with it now.
And now I'll confess my awful secret. Sometimes when *he* mentions how important he is to me, the rational side of me, the grown up side, giggles at his self importance. Which isn't at all fair, since it's true. And since the rational side of me has cringed enough when *I* have told him how important he is to me (however indirectly I've done it). Maybe it just sounds funny to hear, even if it's true.
Posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
>
> I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.I think that if I went to either of your therapists I might be diagnosed with an ego state or dissociative disorder. My analyst does not work that way, and he doesn't like diasnoses very much so he wouldn't express it that way. He will point out that sometimes I am feeling little and seeing him as big, but he doesn't encourage it. It fact, he says that he will never infantalize me, and I know that he would not work with a younger self. When I am feeling like that he relates it to experiences I had when I was a child and we explore what it was like for me then and how it still influences my life, but he does not treat me like I am still little. He tries to make me see that the things I want and I feel little are not possible for adults to have, and that by looking for them I am crippling myself. I have a fantasy of a big, strong person taking care of me, of having him wrap his arms around me and say that everything will be OK, but my analyst will not play a role in it. He says that it wouldn't work, because I can never have that. It's the Golden Fantasy, for those who have read "In Session". He says that as long as I am looking to fulfill the fantasy I will never get what I need from the real relationships in my life and I believe he is right about that. He was and is a rock for me, always there, always supportive, always accessable, very kind and compassionate, but as one adult to another, not as adult to a younger self. It is a very different approach. I know that some of the things that Daisy's T does, like insisting that she show up for sessions, giving pictures and encouraging her to look at them, offering to call while on vacation, he would also never do. If I say that I might not come to a session he would ask why, but he would emphasize that it is my decision to come or not come, that I am capable of making that decision on my own. It is his way of encouraging me to be responsible for my own self and my own treatment. Very different indeed.
Posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:31:52
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
I think there are a few others who are dealing with this too...Antigua and Aphrodite I know for sure. And Dinah too. (Little daisy talks to little Dinah a lot.) I find it interesting that your child-self will rearrange furniture in your dreams. It seems like she is telling you what she needs to be comfortable in therapy, which is great. I don't know if I've identified different age states in my dreams. But I definitely know that the 3am watchfulness is my younger self.
I don't know how to soothe her yet, I still wish a lot that she would act more mature in therapy. The adult part of me struggles to keep control and censor what she says. My therapist keeps wishing I could find a way to see her strength. I just hear her sadness and neediness.
And I'm like you...shocked to be talking about myself in pieces and parts. Who knew?
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 23:38:07
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
It's not just the two of you. :)
I really have been obtuse, haven't I?
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 23:48:50
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
My therapist wouldn't do what Daisy's therapist does either. Though thankfully he's willing to speak to whoever shows up for therapy. But he doesn't talk any *differently* - well, maybe a bit differently, but only insofar as he knows what motivations to use, not as in being more nurturing or anything. He's really big on my being responsible for my own therapy. He's very clear about the professional nature of our relationship. He's not particularly nurturing. I envy Daisy her therapist a lot. :)
Posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:53:59
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » daisym, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 22:42:42
Dinah,
I still flinch sometimes when he notes how attached to him I am, or how much I need him. But not as much these days. He says it in such a way that it is not only expected but like it is a good thing. And it is definitely easier to admit these feelings and figure out what I need to feel safe.I'm still shocked when my therapist talks directly to my younger self and she responds. The flood of emotions shakes me and I have a hard time editing what she wants to say. There is a powerful urgency sometimes, like she senses a window of opportunity that will only be open for so long.
It is nice that you understand so well.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 0:09:39
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:31:52
I actually prefer the term "emotional Dinah" or "real Dinah" or what I usually use in person "Dinah (pointing at my stomach as opposed to Dinah pointing at my head)", although the latter is hard to do in writing. :)
For shorthand and convenience I might use capital and lowercase letters, but while I might use a photo of me age 12 or 13 to denote the self image of me (pointing at my stomach), and while I (pointing at my stomach) have a real objection to growing up, I don't really think of it as an age related thing so much as an emotional/rational thing. Well, I (pointing to my stomach) like to think of it as a real/fake thing, but I (pointing to my head) am not crazy about that one, so the compromise is emotional/rational me or me (pointing to my stomach) and me (pointing to my head).
And now I have you totally confused, should I ask if you have any preferences? I probably use little Daisy because I heard it elsewhere, but if you prefer a different way of referring to yourself, just let me know. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:20:35
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
What you said is interesting, Lucy. There are so many different ways to get better.Your analyst is working in a standard, traditional way, and you have made some great changes (from reading your previous posts). When I was 20, I also went to a traditional analyst for three years; he worked just the way yours does, and I got SO much better. I did a lot of grieving over the abuse and lack of love and support in my childhood, but we mainly concentrated on growth of my adult self. He did not want regressions, which my present analyst does want.
I really stayed quite well, through marriage, the birth of my son and a good career life. I had the wonderful feeling that I was meeting challenges successfully and growing personally all during this time; I always remembered my wonderful first analyst, and kept in touch with him- he was a very important, internalized part of me. However, when my mother and father died, I quite suddenly developed a very severe depression, with suicidal thoughts; for the first time in my life, I really needed anti-depressants. That's why I'm in analysis again; I've been doing very different things with this analyst, as you probably know! But different as this experience is, it's also tremendously valuable; I probably needed to do both at different times in my life- this one almost seems like something one has the privilege of doing when older.
The first analysis seemed to move smoothly towards growth, independence and increased personal fulfilment. This one is more all over the place- sometimes I think, what am I DOING? It's not so great for one's adult life to keep regressing! But, in a year and a half, I've overcome the depression almost completely (I take just 37.5 mg. of Wellbutrin now). In my adult life, things are changing in subtle ways- more confidence in my career abilities than I have ever had, more spontaneity and joy in day-to-day things, better acceptance and liking of myself.
My analyst told me that doing an analysis that includes exploring dissociative states is probably the most thorough kind that one can do. I guess he thought it was the correct thing to do, because I had *done* the standard analysis, and never lost any of it's benefits. He personally thinks that everyone has dissociated states, but that most people do not need to explore them. He doesn't look for them in every patient, though I guess he feels they are there!
Posted by daisym on September 2, 2004, at 0:26:11
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 1, 2004, at 23:16:40
Lucy,
I want to clarify without sounding defensive.
When I say my therapist "insists" that I come, it usually goes like this:
"I think you should come and we should talk about what you are feeling. You know me, I think we should talk about whatever is going on. I want you to come."
I've expressed to him before that I need him to advocate for the parts of me that need and want therapy. Because the part of me that thinks I should be stronger and do it myself looms large.
I need to be reminded that it is OK to be doing this work. He knows I would interpret "it is your choice" as "I don't care what you do."I guess that is why therapy is such an individual process. I have to learn to trust another person with the damaged parts of myself. To learn that someone can know this stuff and still care about you. We've talked about my perception that no one, irl, really can handle knowing how emotionally unstable I feel, they would be burdened with feeling like they had to fix it. I don't want that. Yet he points out that until I allow myself to trust others with my emotions, all of them, I will be missing something huge from my relationships. I know this, I feel it already. I just can't risk the vulnerability yet. I'm practicing with him.
I also think that in 99% of my life I'm not only the "adult" but I'm the adult in charge. He refuses to allow only this strong front which crowds out the wounded child. But he never makes me feel childish. He just accepts the childlike parts.
I do sound defensive, don't I? I guess it is because I've never let myself be this vulnerable with anyone before and I still question the wisdom of this dependency off and on. No one has ever nurtured my soul like this. What a sad realization that is.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:33:33
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 23:38:07
I guess that I'm the obtuse one. You HAVE been mentioning different Dinahs! I wasn't sure if you meant it in the way my analyst means it- as an unconscious, separated- off self which wasn't able to join the conscious me in the growing up process. I somehow thought that you were referring to sort of co-equal, but different, parts of your adult conscious self. I'm jealous of Daisy's therapist, too- mine is great, but he doesn't do or say some of the extra-ordinary things that hers does.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:55:49
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 23:31:52
Absolutely. Who knew? What we are all trying to do is so difficult, and brings up (in me- in us all) so many emotional storms, that I am coming to really value being able to talk about it here on PB. It doesn't work to do it IRL. At first, I felt that it was a pleasant, sociable thing to do, but now I am starting to feel that we are all playing small but real roles in one another's struggle towards health. Makes it pretty darn valuable!
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 1:23:37
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:33:33
How about somewhere in between?
There's a rather complex sharing of consciousness now, and one that is totally unlike anything I've come across in my typically extensive research. So I'm neither fish nor fowl as far as I can find from books, articles, etc. Which of course makes me feel like I can't possibly be the way I am.
But at one time, it was a far more unconscious or dissociated or whatever, arrangement. I just learned how to access the dissociated ego state fairly easily and worked out a time share sort of agreement. It wouldn't be discreet or prudent of me to discuss "equality". :)
To some extent, I'm happy to downplay the dissociation aspect. There is a fair amount of prejudice against it, even within the mental health community. My experience doesn't fit neatly into any box, so I don't need to put a name to it. Even my therapist varies widely in how he describes his understanding of it. I usually use "well defined ego states" if I must describe it. The inner child explanation has a cultural acceptance to it, despite my indignant response to being called an inner child. Or as the EMDR therapist called it "an archaic inner child remnant" which didn't go over very well as it was said to the "remnant"'s face. I go through periodic activist phases where I stand up proudly and say I'm a dual-ego-state individual and proud of it, but I usually sit down again very quickly. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 1:33:08
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 1:23:37
Oh, you gave me a giggling fit, and I woke up my sleeping husband! The only place I stand up at all is here, and I sit down pretty quickly, too!
Posted by lucy stone on September 2, 2004, at 8:37:37
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » lucy stone, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:20:35
Well, I'm not doing a "standard, traditional" analysis. I am doing a modern analysis. My analyst says that the only people he knows that do more than one analysis are ones that did a traditional one the first time. It's just that I do not think that my analyst believes that everyone has dissociated states. I suspect that he would say that some people have them but everyone. I think I will ask him about this today, I am interested in his response. I have talked here about what I call the "other Lucy", which is the public face I use in stressful situations, but when I talk use that term with my analyst, he always brings me back to what I am doing, why I need to act in a different way in stressful situations, what I need to do to use my authentic self at those times. It is indeed interesting how different approaches for for different people, and how important it is for a patient and therapist to be a good match.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:36:35
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:05:54
Gotta go shoe shopping, Daisy. Do what works!
The are a medium heel with a center seam on the toe with contrast stitching. Not too pointy but stylish.Take care, sweets!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:49:47
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
Pfinstegg,
> She doesn't speak yet, but she does speak in dreams. In them, she has rearranged the analyst's office, bringing in her favorite toys and animals from her childhood, changed the couch to a different location, etc. Then she said, "OK! Now I'm at home. Now I can tell you things, and it will help me a lot". And she does, a bit more, each day.That is such a sweet image. Thank you for sharing it.
>
> I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.I had an experience recently when I was meditating about a metaphor for my pain. It included a volcano (don't ask!) and as I was sitting there, all of a sudden, my five year old self came up and tried to pull me away, saying "You'll get in trouble." I did the same thing you did...I sat with her and stroked her hair and told her things would be okay. I told my T about it because it was a bit freaky to me. I was concerned that it meant that my ego was fragmenting rather than getting stronger. He never mentioned disorder and actually believed it was good progress. That I was able to parent the child me that did not get that caring and nurturing in the past.
Now he doesn't work to try to talk to her, although he did mention we could analyze why it was that age, why she looked like she did, etc. But he focused on the self-soothing aspect and seemed pleased.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:07:15
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 1:33:08
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