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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on April 1, 2004, at 8:33:28
I found an awesome book yesterday at the library. "Changing Mind-sets" It talks about how our conscious and unconscious is only aware of things that fit our model of the world (i.e. they give an example of a patient of Freud's - Wolf Man - who believed that all relationships were victim-victimizer relationships. So he had to either be the victim or the victimizer (or, it turns out both...). He couldn't comprehend that a relationship could be mutually beneficial. It just wasn't possible in his world.). So this book talks about how there are ideas that are OUTSIDE of our conscious/unconscious (they call it the potential unconscious), and that the goal of therapy is to find the ideas that are needed to make the patient healthy and happy that are OUTSIDE, and bring them in. (So Wolf Man needs to learn that relationships can be mutually beneficial) Of course, this causes a lot of anxiety - because the therapist is trying to introduce concepts that don't fit with the patient's understanding of reality.
My therapist says that I want to stay depressed and disabled. This goes against everything that my conscious knows. So I respond with "no way! I am doing everything I know to NOT be depressed". What the book is pointing out to me, is that there may be things THAT I DON"T KNOW that are keeping me depressed. I can't see them because they are outside of my world view. He can see them, and his job is to help me see them. I think that in order to see them I have to be open to considering things (which is what he keeps saying to me) that on the surface seem absurd. This is SOOOOO hard.
I'm hoping that reading this book will help me to be willing to be more open - to think outside of the box. I'm also hoping that I will be able to tolerate the anxiety more if I understand where it is coming from (that my view of the world has to change - it certainly seems reasonable that that would make me anxious).
At least I see that the direction he is going in has SOME logical basis. So that should make me more cooperative. I have a hard time cooperating if I don't understand what he is trying to do - it feels bad and doesn't make sense to me, why should I go along with it? The book at least gives me a reason to believe that he MIGHT have a better view of things than I do (usually I assume that if I don't understand it, then it isn't right - and if someone wants me to believe it then they need to convince me and make me understand). This also explains why it is easier for us to solve other people's problems than it is to solve our own. With our own problems, our ability to look at them is constricted by our view of reality. Other people don't have the same view that I do, so if they have the piece that I am missing, they can see that is what I need. I can't see it because it is outside of my "world".
So, now I'm terrified that I will waltz into his office and show him my new book and he'll say "I really don't think that is going to help you". And I'll be completely deflated and crushed and hopeless.
You know, if I wanted to stay depressed, I could have chosen an easier route than seeing him 3 times a week. Doesn't that demonstrate that I don't WANT to be depressed????
Posted by DaisyM on April 1, 2004, at 10:33:47
In reply to Potential Unconscious, posted by fallsfall on April 1, 2004, at 8:33:28
Oh Falls...I know you are working as hard as you can to understand why you feel depressed and to find a way to feel better.
You explanation of the unconscious theory is very clear -- not being able to see what is not part of your reality. And I think you are on the right track by trying to force yourself to be open to new ideas and possibilities.
This is where the "magic" of therapy comes in. If you give yourself over to the dependency and trust of your therapist, then you feel safer in expanding your world view. The internal forces to fight against this are humongous...so strongly entrenched in all of us. Especially those of us who split. And many times those around us support our desire to be free of pain...to not re-create ourselves because "we" are just fine and great and the re-creation is what is seeming to cause the pain. I think it is likely to be painful and scary to climb out of the box and I know your anxiety must be really high. You are brave to undertake this.
I hear the anguish in your final few sentences...and yes, going three times a week DOES demonstrate that you don't want to be depressed. But remember, you just said that you need to be open to the motivators being outside of what you know about yourself. You are working hard with what you do know. Going 3x/week should provide more opportunities to learn what you don't know. It will take time, these ideas don't just hit and stick. Even after they make sense to our brain, our feelings might still reject things. What doesn't resonate immediately as true can be internally rejected without you even being aware of it.
Example: You and I have talked a lot about how responsible I feel about being sexual abused. I KNOW as an adult, and a professional who works with children, that it is NEVER the child's fault. But the little kid in me rejects that blanket statement...she feels shame and guilt and wonders how she let this happen to her. There is a disconnect between my brain and my gut still. But I'm working on it.I want to say again how brave I think you are. Reach out for support as often as you need it, we'll all be here for you.
(((Fallsfall)))
Posted by 64Bowtie on April 1, 2004, at 14:18:38
In reply to Re: Potential Unconscious (long), posted by DaisyM on April 1, 2004, at 10:33:47
>There is a disconnect between my brain and my gut still. But I'm working on it.
>
<<<The visceral [brain] cortex controls heart, diaphram, stomach, and intestines. There's a book about all this called "The Second Brain"The treachery happens when we refuse to update and go with an amalgamation of brain (logic) and gut (feelings). A "feeling decision" works fine for kids since their responsibility level is limited. As an adult, make mine brains and gut, so I stay outta trouble, more often anyway.
Rod
Posted by 64Bowtie on April 1, 2004, at 14:26:53
In reply to Potential Unconscious, posted by fallsfall on April 1, 2004, at 8:33:28
(I apologise if this offends)
A study of the complexities of the interactions between the mind and the viscera called,
"Guts and Brains; A Study of Logic and Feeling"
Rod
Posted by tabitha on April 2, 2004, at 9:47:30
In reply to Potential Unconscious, posted by fallsfall on April 1, 2004, at 8:33:28
Falls, it's so difficult to open up to the new perspectives a therapist has. But it sounds like you are very willing, at the conscious level, to get better. I know for me it was terrifying, disorienting, and generally felt like the rug was being yanked from under my feet, to try and adopt the new 'healthy' beliefs from my therapist. DaisyM got it right I think, it's the trust and the bond to the therapist that allows you to let go and open yourself to new views.
WHenever I find some book or some website I think will help, I go into therapy and tell her about it, and she usually dampens my enthusiasm a bit. I tend to want black and white formulas for change, and she keeps insisting on shades of gray in my thinking. So it's frustrating. But I notice that the times I get so enthusiastic about outside sources are the times I'm having trouble in the realtionship with her, or starting to doubt the whole undertaking.
I'd really bristle at being told I 'wanted' to stay depressed and disabled. It just sounds too blaming, and I'd get defensive. However, we've discussed at length how I might have core beliefs that create barriers to becoming a happy, whole person. The main resistance I think was that becoming happy takes me further away from my mom and brother, since I'm no longer in the same mindset with them. Somehow I picked up a belief that happiness isn't possible, or isn't to be trusted. So I get a little happy, and the inner critical parent comes in and starts wagging a finger at me and saying it won't last, or it isn't real, or it isn't safe. So yes I have internal resistance to happiness, but I still wouldn't like hearing I 'want' to be unhappy.
But regardless, it sounds like you are venturing into new territory in your therapy and your thinking right now. Be proud of yourself for taking such risks. Many people go through life without any awareness of their belief system, much less actually having courage to challenge it and change. Well done.
This is the end of the thread.
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