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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:25:55
I read it as saying, if a client is acting that way, it's time to for the therp to be extra vigilant about his or her own behavior...that the signs show the situation may be ripe for the therapist crossing boundaries, if as a therpaist you are not aware of the pitfalls, not taking care of your own sitch psychologically, etc.
But I just skimmed it, actually. And of course it was from a lawyer.
Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: two more links » crushedout, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:58:32
In reply to Re: two more links » crushedout, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
Yeah, that's what I think would be the right way to deal with it, but that's not what it says. It says you should start strongly considering termination.
Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:59:26
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:25:55
Oh, I just read this sentence! "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them".
Yeah that's pretty crummy. We've seen what that's done to people here.
If a therapist repeatedly encountered this kind of sitch, I think they should ask themselves, what am I as a therapist doing, could I be acting seductive in a way I don't realize? I don't think it should always be on the patient.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 13:02:22
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:54:51
> ...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
Well, it actually says, "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them." And that's only in the part about the "Client signs" so it's not about a situation where the therapist has feelings for the client. I think that's just silly. Don't you?
Still, I found the links fascinating and helpful.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 13:06:22
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:59:26
> If a therapist repeatedly encountered this kind of sitch, I think they should ask themselves, what am I as a therapist doing, could I be acting seductive in a way I don't realize? I don't think it should always be on the patient.That's an excellent point. Maybe even if it's not repeated. Maybe they should just always ask themselves that. Because in general, I think feelings don't usually come out of thin air. Although with transference, it doesn't always mean the T's been seductive, either. But it's worth them asking themselves.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:59:26
I've just really been thinking about my therapist and I've been researching boundary crossings. I read one site that said all cards should be dated and placed in the client's folder. I've sent my therapist numerous thank you cards and he places them in his office. And he discloses personal information as it pertains to therapy, sometimes it doesn't.
Now, I'm really overly anxious that he may transfer me out. I'm certain I'm just paranoid. CERTAIN of it. But, I know that he is ethical and if he feels that he's crossing boundaries I know he would seek supervision. And if that person were to suggest he transfer me out I honestly don't think I would continue therapy. Would he be obligated to talk with me about it first, maybe suggest I stop asking questions first or something. I mean would I have some sort of a warning first at least? Anything to let me know that there's a possibility that he's considering terminating therapy? Funny, I used to think that him crossing boundaries would be a dream come true.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 15:13:20
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
I would take those legal links with a grain of salt, Karen Kay. They were pretty alarmist.But I'm planning to check with my therapist to find out if she's thought about terminating me. Just to reassure myself.
> I've just really been thinking about my therapist and I've been researching boundary crossings. I read one site that said all cards should be dated and placed in the client's folder. I've sent my therapist numerous thank you cards and he places them in his office. And he discloses personal information as it pertains to therapy, sometimes it doesn't.
>
> Now, I'm really overly anxious that he may transfer me out. I'm certain I'm just paranoid. CERTAIN of it. But, I know that he is ethical and if he feels that he's crossing boundaries I know he would seek supervision. And if that person were to suggest he transfer me out I honestly don't think I would continue therapy. Would he be obligated to talk with me about it first, maybe suggest I stop asking questions first or something. I mean would I have some sort of a warning first at least? Anything to let me know that there's a possibility that he's considering terminating therapy? Funny, I used to think that him crossing boundaries would be a dream come true.
Posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 15:24:35
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
I would think that it is all about what the therapist can handle and what he/she can't. I wouldn't worry too much about what questions you ask, Karen, as it's up to him to decide whether or not he wants to respond. If he starts to feel he's disclosing too much personal info, then perhaps he will stop answering all of your questions so frankly. But I am still a believer in being pretty honest with your T, though I know there are always exceptions. Perhaps I have just been fortunate to have therapists I could be perfectly honest with.
As for your situation, I would think that the only way your T would refer you on would be if he thought either he couldn't help you or wasn't helping you, OR if he found himself contemplating acting on feelings he had developed for you (mind you, I didn't say that I think he has developed feelings, just that IF he did and IF he found himself thinking about acting on them, THEN it would be his responsibility to refer you on). However, if the problem is over-disclosure on his part, I would think he would simply change his approach, i.e. not disclose so much.
Of course, to me that sounds like a reasonable solution to a problem such as that. But all people and all situations aren't reasonable. But I certainly wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:39:10
In reply to Re: Hey, you found a BD present for me! » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 23:23:46
Oh, yes in fact I do! And if you like, I have an extra copy of the Kama Sutra as well. I can send them together if you want? But, keep in mind the first book is outdated and the pictures aren't really up to par....Just a heads up for you! I could include a few pictures of my handomse therapist (fully clothed, thank you) in the front cover to help add to your imagination, if you like?
Hope your birthday went well! :)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 16:31:59
In reply to Re: being referred on » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 15:24:35
But, in your honest opinion, do you think he's acting or responding inappropriately? Honestly? Because I'm certain if he feels he is then he would seek supervision and from there, ect....
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:27:32
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
Karen, my therapist said he's only referred out a patient once. And that he gave her plenty of warning first but she wouldn't stop serious boundary crossing behaviors (not words, behaviors).
I know it's tough, but try not to worry.
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:29:42
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 13:02:22
> > ...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
>
> Well, it actually says, "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them." And that's only in the part about the "Client signs" so it's not about a situation where the therapist has feelings for the client. I think that's just silly. Don't you?
>
I do. And not only silly, stupid and foolish as well. The surest way for a therapist to get sued is to abandon a client and have a vindictive and/or dead client as a result, it would seem to me. And "terminating without abandoning" is such a stupid oxymoron it isn't even worth discussing.
Posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 23:42:04
In reply to Re: being referred on » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 16:31:59
> But, in your honest opinion, do you think he's acting or responding inappropriately? Honestly? Because I'm certain if he feels he is then he would seek supervision and from there, ect....
Well, I'm not sure why my opinion on this really matters, as he's your therapist, but...
I don't know him at all. And I only know you through babble. So I am speaking solely from extremely limited information! But, if it were me - if he was MY therapist - and he said some of the things to me that he's said to you, I can assure you that it would make me uncomfortable. Then again, I never would have admitted to him that I had ever fantasized about him! So I guess it wouldn't be an issue - probably wouldn't come up at all!
I would hope that, as a professional, he would seek supervision if he felt at all inclined to consider violating any major boundaries. But I have to leave it up to you, Karen, to know whether he really would or not, because, as I said, I don't know him. I guess I'm a bit wary because of some of the horror stories I've heard about unethical therapists and the pain they can cause, but, then again, perhaps some would consider my very own darling pdoc to not be as professional or rigid in his boundaries as he perhaps should be. Though none of his boundary crossing has ever been things that make me uncomfortable, except for offering to loan me money one time when I was strapped and he was worried about me. Talk about fulfilling the daddy fantasy...but I didn't borrow any money. And my T made me promise that if I felt that his offering such a thing would put me in an uncomfortable position, that I would bring it up with him.
But I guess it's all in how you look at it. You are in the situation. I am an outsider. You have your experiences and I have mine. So it's hard for me to say. On the surface, I would have to honestly say that I think he should really be a bit cautious in how he relates to his patients, or he should be keeping good records, or he should be seeking supervision to ensure that there is nothing that would get him in trouble or hurt you or other patients. And, I guess, in knowing how very young he is, I would hope that he's keeping good records and such anyway - it's too early in his therapy career for him to be an expert, Ph.D. or not, and while no therapist ever knows it all, 10 years from now he may look back on some of his conversations with you and wince with an "I can't believe I said that!"
At the same time, perhaps he's treating you as he would treat anyone your age, or perhaps he just knows he can be more laid back with you. I dunno. Just follow your gut. I feel YOU will know, really, if something is not right. And if it makes you uncomfortable, don't hesitate to tell him so! If not, then don't worry about it.
P.S. - Feel free to ignore any or all of what I wrote above!
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 17, 2004, at 10:22:07
In reply to Re: being referred on » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 23:42:04
I'm just in need of constant reassurance. That's all :) The thought has never crossed my mind that he may act on any type of boundary crossing or that he has ever had any type of inappropriate thoughts about me. My fear is that he is a bit too forthcoming with information, due to the fact that he is new at this.
What I am worried about is the fact that I am inquisitive and he is not highly skilled at directing the conversation in a different direction (which I love!). So, when I ask him personal questions he is more likely to answer rather than ask why I would ask such a question. And I'm certain he asks himself 10 minutes later "Oh no, why did I answer that?", I'm sure it isn't going to be 10 years later.
And he doesn't keep notes at all. A brief paragraph of what happened during the session. He says he has a good memory, which is true. Is that bad? Sometimes I get the feeling he's a little boy in big boy clothes. But, referring a client out is only an option IF and ONLY IF a therapist feels that they aren't helping a client or if they feel they may act upon feelings, right? If that's the case, then I see no need for alarm.
I think I'm going to go in during my next session, have a brief discussion about my asking too many questions, see what he says, also see if he's considered terminating my therapy and move on ASAP so I don't give him any ideas!As for your Pdoc offering you money, did that make you uncomfortable? That is a rather strange situation. On one hand it seems SO nice. It shows that he really cares about your wellbeing. But it begs the question of ethics and his ability to seperate himself from his clients. But, it also shows that you hold a special place at the front of the class :) I'd have snatched the $ from his hand as fast as I could, but that's just me. And said, "Could you bill me for it?" No, I don't think I could have taken the money either. I'd feel like I would have owed him. But, I don't tell my therapist when I have money problems. I like to pretend like I don't have money problems. But, I'm really skilled at denial. I could give you a lesson if you like :) However, it isn't a very effective coping technique. Especially if you spend money you don't have. YIKES!
Posted by crushedout on January 17, 2004, at 12:12:51
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:29:42
> > > ...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
> >
> > Well, it actually says, "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them." And that's only in the part about the "Client signs" so it's not about a situation where the therapist has feelings for the client. I think that's just silly. Don't you?
> >
> I do. And not only silly, stupid and foolish as well. The surest way for a therapist to get sued is to abandon a client and have a vindictive and/or dead client as a result, it would seem to me. And "terminating without abandoning" is such a stupid oxymoron it isn't even worth discussing.
Excellent point. I'm so glad you agree it's absurdly stupid.
Posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2004, at 1:01:29
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by crushedout on January 17, 2004, at 12:12:51
Yeah that was a stupid link. I should have read it more thoroughly before I posted it. I think the other parts of it were interesting, the parts not written by a laywer.
But, while I don't think it's appropriate for a therapist to abandon a client, I also don't think it's appropriate for therapists to talk about their own sexual practices and feelings, especially if they are fantasizing about patients...even if the fantasies are not about the patient sitting right there.
Mabye I'm conceited, but of course I would assume he was fantasing about moi, LOL. Or, if I thought it wasn't about me...well then, why NOT me, hmmph, what I am, chopped liver? It would be a no-win sitch for me personally.
But then, I don't talk much about sex in therapy. Well, there is nothing to talk about now in that department anyway...I hope I am not boring them.
Posted by Fallen4myT on January 18, 2004, at 1:29:28
In reply to Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 14:32:04
I am new here and it is 2 A.M so I do not have a lot to say well, I do but not now. I just had to tell you I think you are so cool Karen I could never ask what you asked your psychologist no matter what :)
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 8:42:32
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 18, 2004, at 1:01:29
Hey Joslynn, I'm still glad you posted that link. I thought it was interesting. And provoked a "discussion" of what we didn't agree with about it, so grist for the mill.> Yeah that was a stupid link. I should have read it more thoroughly before I posted it. I think the other parts of it were interesting, the parts not written by a laywer.
>
> But, while I don't think it's appropriate for a therapist to abandon a client, I also don't think it's appropriate for therapists to talk about their own sexual practices and feelings, especially if they are fantasizing about patients...even if the fantasies are not about the patient sitting right there.
>
> Mabye I'm conceited, but of course I would assume he was fantasing about moi, LOL. Or, if I thought it wasn't about me...well then, why NOT me, hmmph, what I am, chopped liver? It would be a no-win sitch for me personally.
>
> But then, I don't talk much about sex in therapy. Well, there is nothing to talk about now in that department anyway...I hope I am not boring them.
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 9:58:36
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:50:14
hi karen
i acually was SHOCKED when i read your first post and felt like crushedout and joslynn. But...after reading your defense :) i believe that he has a 'special' relationship with you, not in a sexual way but in a close bonded way. he cares about you and you care about him. this isn't always obvious in therapy relationships, when it happens it is great! i've had it and it was a relationship that others couldn't understand or they wanted??? i could and would say just about anything to him, as he would to me. i could take his humor and he could (sometimes) take mine :) of course i would not be open to hearing about his sex life (well maybe, i don't know, it was never an issue) my point is that i think you have a very unique relationship, with a very unique guy, and i think those are hard to find! when you read about what he first said it is rather shocking but then i went back to my relationship and some of the things i was told about etc, would bother people and i personally think he was awsome! so don't worry about it, i don't think he needs defending, you know what he is like and you know if he is helping you. one otehr thing, i think he knew what he was doing when he said it, i believe that he would not have told you that if you didn't have the 'issues' you have adn i don't think he would say that to many other patients. i hope this helped :)
dragonfly
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
In reply to i will defend him.... » Karen_kay, posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 9:58:36
but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
> hi karen
>
> i acually was SHOCKED when i read your first post and felt like crushedout and joslynn. But...after reading your defense :) i believe that he has a 'special' relationship with you, not in a sexual way but in a close bonded way. he cares about you and you care about him. this isn't always obvious in therapy relationships, when it happens it is great! i've had it and it was a relationship that others couldn't understand or they wanted??? i could and would say just about anything to him, as he would to me. i could take his humor and he could (sometimes) take mine :) of course i would not be open to hearing about his sex life (well maybe, i don't know, it was never an issue) my point is that i think you have a very unique relationship, with a very unique guy, and i think those are hard to find! when you read about what he first said it is rather shocking but then i went back to my relationship and some of the things i was told about etc, would bother people and i personally think he was awsome! so don't worry about it, i don't think he needs defending, you know what he is like and you know if he is helping you. one otehr thing, i think he knew what he was doing when he said it, i believe that he would not have told you that if you didn't have the 'issues' you have adn i don't think he would say that to many other patients. i hope this helped :)
> dragonfly
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 10:13:37
In reply to being Special » dragonfly25, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
hi
i need to update myself. i hadn't read anything following the post i responded to, i have been doing it now. so i hadn't read the links yet when i posted. i actually thought today was the 16th. that is bad!!!
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 18, 2004, at 10:45:53
In reply to being Special » dragonfly25, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
ok, i can't read all the posts now cause im running out the door soon (so if i sound ignorant to them, im sorry)but.... yes i think some of boundry issues are bs. and i posted on another thread about how important i think boudries are. i do! i think they are critical. i have had a boundry violation with a therappist.
i think the patient knows when a boundry has been violated, and i don't think karen did until she started reading about all those boundries. actually im not sure she even thinks a boundry was violated???
when i referred to 'special' ididn't mean "special" i meant that it was a solid grounded relationship where you are completely comfortable with the therapist and they are completely comfortable with you. because a therapist can't always be comfortable with patients- we can all be pretty screwed up at times. but after awile you build an understanding kind of. i am having a really hard time explaining what i am trying to say. i think there are critical boundries that should not be crossed. actually i would be interested in knowing if karen is on a first name basis with her therapist. (not saying that it critical, but i think it is important to keep that boundry clear). um i have to think about this...
> but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
>
> what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
>
Posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 11:26:32
In reply to being Special » dragonfly25, posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 10:05:53
> but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
>
> what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
>
>Good questions, crushedout. I think sometimes I am in the minority around here, but I just don't understand how our therapists *couldn't* see each of us as special in one way or another. If my therapist was unable to find my "specialness" in relation to him and our relationship, I would question how effective he could be with me. I don't think it would work if he treated me exactly like he treats every other client he has. I have different issues, feelings, and responses. He has to take that into account. Obviously, they learn the "basics" and use them as a foundation for their objectivity, but they must adapt to each client's personality and situation.
As to "favorites", I always go back to the humanness of our therapists. They have plenty of thoughts and feelings as they are listening to us pour our hearts out each session. I think they are trained to put those to the side so they can use objectivity in formulating their responses to us (therefore maintaining appropriate boundaries). But how could their thoughts and feelings not lead to having favorites?
Posted by crushedout on January 18, 2004, at 11:39:31
In reply to Re: being Special » crushedout, posted by All Done on January 18, 2004, at 11:26:32
Good points, AllDone. Especially about them being human. I think that legal link that said they shouldn't start thinking a client was "special" was probably not very realistic or practical. But I still think that it makes an interesting point, especially with regard to the kind of boundary crossings we're talking about here. Basically, that it's a danger sign.(Just to clarify, by "special," I didn't mean
special in the sense that we're all unique and have different needs, etc. I meant "special" in the sense of being a favorite. In other words, when they see us as *more* "special" than other clients. And as being able to treat us in ways that they wouldn't treat anyone else, or that aren't terribly kosher (such as over-disclosing to us).)
> > but see, that's the problem. as much as i *want* (as much as i think we all want) to be special to our therapists, one thing that i found informative/intriguing about the links joslynn posted is that we're not *supposed* to be special. if we become that to our Ts, they're actually having a problem. they're no longer objective enough.
> >
> > what do you guys think of this? is it b.s.? is it ok to be special, e.g., to be our T's faves (or one of them)? or is that a sign of trouble?
> >
> >
>
> Good questions, crushedout. I think sometimes I am in the minority around here, but I just don't understand how our therapists *couldn't* see each of us as special in one way or another. If my therapist was unable to find my "specialness" in relation to him and our relationship, I would question how effective he could be with me. I don't think it would work if he treated me exactly like he treats every other client he has. I have different issues, feelings, and responses. He has to take that into account. Obviously, they learn the "basics" and use them as a foundation for their objectivity, but they must adapt to each client's personality and situation.
>
> As to "favorites", I always go back to the humanness of our therapists. They have plenty of thoughts and feelings as they are listening to us pour our hearts out each session. I think they are trained to put those to the side so they can use objectivity in formulating their responses to us (therefore maintaining appropriate boundaries). But how could their thoughts and feelings not lead to having favorites?
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