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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by antigua on January 15, 2004, at 9:02:33
In reply to Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 14:32:04
O.K. Karen, here's my take on this. You have a "youngish" therapist who is still learning how to be a therapist. I, too, believe that in the years to come he will quit answering questions like yours and revert to the old "why do you ask," "how would it make you feel if I did fantasize about my clients," etc. Inappropriate or not (and I'm not saying it is at all), I think your T was trying to connect w/you and build your trust--he seems to know what makes you tick and if he can relate to you, you will feel more comfortable opening up to him. Especially since this has to do w/sexual issues, which you admitted you do have. (me too, I'm joining the club).
Trust is at the heart of your relationship. I agree w/whoever said that what works for one of us may not work for another. I think you're brave to ask the question. I would ask anything if I thought it would advance my therapy, but that's only because I trust my therapist completely.
One more thing about therapists and kids. Sometimes when I walk in my therapist asks me if we could change seats so that I could help her w/her problems. We laugh about it, but it makes her human. I know her daughter, she's a great kid, but my T tells me that her daughter says that if her mother's clients knew what she was like in real life they would never come to her for help! I believe it. It's her job, and she's very good at it, but she certainly is not perfect in her own life. My T also says lots of kids of therapists are really messed up!
Best,
antigua
Posted by judy1 on January 15, 2004, at 9:29:36
In reply to Now, to answer your questions.. » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:59:19
thanks for clearing things up for Miss Honeychurch. to be honest I was horrified when I read your post, but then I was a victim of boundary crossing by a shrink and my reaction was based on that. so when you put things in context it helped me understand why you would continue to see your therp, apparently his style has helped you and that's what is important.
take care, judy
Posted by Elle2021 on January 15, 2004, at 10:10:54
In reply to Miss Honey's a prude! :) » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 8:49:23
Okay, now that I know the context in which he asked for your bra size, I don't think he did anything wrong.
First of all, if you have a sort of complex about having small breasts and you complain about it to your therapist, isn't the next most logical question for the therapist to ask, "Well, what size are they." I don't see anything wrong with that. And by the way Karen, even if they were small, there isn't anything wrong with that.
Elle
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:33:04
Karen, can I ask you how old you are? I know that's a silly question (I hope it doesn't offend you) -- I'm just curious. Actually, I wonder about a lot of the posters' ages on this site. I thought about starting a new thread re: age, but then I was afraid Dr. Bob would redirect me to Social, and I only want to know Psychological Babblers' ages. Am I in trouble now? Sorry, Dr. Bob! Please don't block me! Can you get blocked for this sort of thing? I hope not.
I'm 32, btw.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:35
In reply to silly question » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
I'm 34
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:36
In reply to silly question » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 10:17:24
Crushed,
I'm 24 or 25. Crap! Right now I can't remember. I wsa born in July of 79 and don't feel like doing the math at this point as I have a Math class coming up later today :) I'm really not stupid either, again it's that darn faulty memory. I have a knack of being unable to recall things about my past. Which is good to a certain exstint, but I need to get past that....So, will you please tell me how old I am? :)
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 11:35:45
In reply to Re: silly question » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:31:36
i think that would make you 24.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:41:44
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by antigua on January 15, 2004, at 9:02:33
Oh! I'm SOOOO glad I have him when he's young enough to fall for those tricks! :) I just wouldn't be satisfied with the old, "Why do you want to know" bs that everyone else pulls. And I almost hope that he doesn't seek supervision on this one, as he may not be so forthcoming on my next round of assaults! And I do trust him quite a bit more knowing that he wasn't afraid to answer my questions or push me in a different direction. It's nice to be able to talk to someone I respect about sex and not feel as if it is something negative or bad. I think that pushing me in a different direction would give me the impression that the question was bad, also giving the impression that the subject was one not to be discussed. We both know that I don't have a crush on him anymore. I can be honest and say I find him attractive, but that's it. And our relationship is headed in a much more positive direction. I'm not feeling so inclined to keep him at arm's length during the session anymore. So, even out of "stupid" questions can come amazing breakthroughs!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:55:05
In reply to In defense of the cute therapist :) » Karen_kay, posted by Elle2021 on January 15, 2004, at 10:10:54
Now you're giving me a complex. I may be in some need of positive reinforcement from the cute shrink :) Just quit talking about my small breasts. Must I send a photo to prove they are quite ample? Sheesh! They are actually large and quite full. And I'm sure they are perkier than yours, thank you very much :)
I know that when I actually said my bra size, it made me realize that they weren't as small as I was complaining about. And when I said it, I didn't feel a bit uncomfortable, as I normally would telling a man that I have a crush on, ect. But, I know that I'm overly cautious about crossing boundaries. I wouldn't even suggest he would cross them. I'll keep my eyes and ears open. I don't think I'd stop seeing him even if he did though. Does that make me bad? I notice that he gets defensive sometimes when I try to "tell my side of how things happened" during therapy. Darn it, you guys are making me think too much about things...He's a good therapist, honestly. I couldn't imagine going in every week and looking at some drab old man or woman. Or someone who doesn't answer my questions. Or someone who's struggling to stay awake.....
That's why he said I was one of his favorite clients. I said that I noticed that he puts his head on his hands often and he said that he does it to stay awake because he doesn't get much sleep with is children at home (and don't give me crap about him overdisclosing) and I said, I guess I need to try to think up more interesting stories to try to keep you awake and he said, "No, actually that's why you are one of my favorite clients, because I don't have a problem staying awake in here." That doesn't sound so good once I type it out.....
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:01:18
In reply to Ummm uh oh? » Elle2021, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:55:05
It sounds just fine to me. My therapist does have trouble staying awake sometimes, and always apologizes and blames himself. But it does kind of make me feel bad. I'm glad you heard that yours doesn't feel sleepy with you.
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 15, 2004, at 12:04:07
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » antigua, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 11:41:44
This is completely fascinating! As an immediate response, several of the things your therapist said really do sound like boundary violations. However, as I've read more and seen what's happening to you, I think I would characterize what he's said as boundary "crossings", which, when made by either client or therapist, can be immensely helpful. He's trying to reach across and say, " you can live a full, sexually rewarding life, too. " And you felt completely safe when this was occurring, I think- and also felt better afterwards- on a sustained basis.
To give an example from my own therapy, my analyst said to me once, "you're sexy as hell". Now, that sounds just awful when I write it, but in context, I felt completely safe and validated- and it was part of some very positive changes which were occurring in me. So, who's to judge, or say, other than the persons involved?
Pfinstegg
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:17:09
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by Pfinstegg on January 15, 2004, at 12:04:07
To give an example from my own therapy, my analyst said to me once, "you're sexy as hell". Now, that sounds just awful when I write it, but in context, I felt completely safe and validated- and it was part of some very positive changes which were occurring in me. So, who's to judge, or say, other than the persons involved?
*Right on! I'm just shaking my head... I...uh...um.... it uh, doesn't sound so good but I completely understand what you are saying. He's not fullfilling any type of fantasy I have about him at all. I actually don't have any type of fantasy about him anymore. I honestly wish you (as in EVERYONE!! They are quite interesting!)could be in the room with me and hear what he says and what I say, to get the actual conversation. It's hard to translate. But, I assure you I didn't percieve it to be a boundary crossing of any sort. Unless it's just that I'm naive? But, I guess the ultimate decision is up to me anyway. And unless a serious infraction were to occur I wouldn't stop seeing him. He's helped me too much.
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 12:20:45
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by Pfinstegg on January 15, 2004, at 12:04:07
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:01:18
But, it has me wondering on how much he should disclose. I know his sleeping pattern. I know exactly how involved he is with his children compared to how much his wife is. I know that his first instinct when confronted with a situation is to lie, and he has given examples. I know about some fights he has had with his wife. I know that his brother is emotionally detached (I know this because I asked if he had a brother [like I was hitting on him in a way]motionally detached :) I know that he does the laundry, ect , ect, ect...And these things have related to therapy...I realize there isn't a question in this post, but how much should I know??? (There's the question...) Most of these things I didn't ask, BTW... He just gave examples.
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 12:47:54
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
What I'd be interested in knowing is - has he been through therapy or is he currently in therapy?
I am not absolutely sure how I feel about some of the info he's shared with you. I do think it's not a cut and dry rule, in that some boundaries, I think, probably depend on the client. My T is loaning me her Harry Potter books on CD, so I can listen to them (I've read them all, but listening helps me get to sleep more easily at night!). So, obviously she trusts me. My pdoc has given me his home phone number, and I know where he lives, b/c he told me. I've heard about his kids, know what his youngest got for Christmas, have heard him on the phone with some of his children, I know about his parents, his brothers, etc. I know a good bit about him. And I know some about my T, though not as much. But my pdoc emphasizes to me that the reason he is comfortable sharing such info with me is because he's *not* doing therapy. He said he would never be so forth coming if he was doing therapy.
My T shares anecdotes at times to emphasize a point or something, but never anything quite as personal as your T, though I tend to think it's due to his age and lack of experience. I don't know, as I said, that that is a bad thing, but I do truly feel that he could benefit from supervision. If he has his Ph.D. in psychology and he's only 29, then if he's fully licensed he hasn't been for very long. How long have you been seeing him, Karen?
P
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:59:39
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
I don't get bent out of joint about those little day to day disclosures, especially if they have relevance to what you're discussing.
Sometimes, before a holiday when I don't want to get upset, I might tell him childhood stories from Christmas and then he might reciprocate. He certainly doesn't do the blank slate thing. There was a period when he was just trying to do too many things and it had a negative impact on his therapeutic effectiveness. When I (naturally) assumed that it was my fault, he explained. And now that I know, he'll refer to it occasionally.
I think he was probably nervous about telling me he was getting married (I prefer not to think of him as being a man) and if they ever have a baby I think he'd be terrified to tell me. Just because I'm likely to have all sorts of abandonment issues crop up and cause him trouble. But those sort of things really can't effectively be kept secret.
I think the question to self disclosure is this. Is it in the best interests of the therapist or the client? If it's done to make the therapist feel better, it's bad. If it's done to further the therapeutic aims of the client, or to strenghten the therapeutic bond, then it's probably good. If it is just to explain the unavoidably detected, it doesn't matter if it's good or bad, it probably should be done.
There have probably been occasions where my therapist missed the mark a bit. But no one's perfect.
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 12:34:33
Hi Karen, Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for a male therapist to tell an attractive female client about arguments he has with his wife.I think it is kind of like using you as a therapist and also disrespectful of his wife. Now if he just made a general statement, like "all marriages involve arguing at times" that would be fine. But do you mean he gives you specific details about arguments in his marriage?
Confession: My shrink, who is usually pretty by-the-book, once made a slip in a similar way. I was talking about an argumentative communcation style of my boyfriend at the time, and he said something like, "I know what you mean, I've experienced that in some relationship too." Of course, I had to press the issue, and asked with whom. He said, "my wife," and then quickly said, "but I shouldn't talk about that" and changed the subject. I could tell he knew that he shouldn't have said that as soon as it came out. He's never said anything sexual or went into details about arguments with her.
It made me feel weird enough to do some research on the internet, and here is one link that I happened to save on my hard dirve, in case the discussion came up again. It didn't, but here is the link, scroll down to self-disclosure blurb: http://www.division42.org/MembersArea/Nws_Views/articles/Ethics/boundaries.html
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:24:46
In reply to a link, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:17:49
Ok, I am going go try to post a long link, but if it doesn't go thru, here is the section I think you should read:
Questionable Self-Disclosure
• Details of current problems or stressors, personal fantasies or dreams, and social,
sexual or financial circumstances.• Inappropriate self-disclosure leads to a gradual erosion of treatment boundaries and
most common factor that precedes therapist-client inappropriate behaviour (Smith &
Fitzpatrick, 1995).• When the therapist’s communication burdens the client with the therapist’s problems
Now, let's try that link. It's kind of interesting and acknowledged the different views re: self-disclosure in different orientations, but it does say the some things are questionable (see above). Now, zee link: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:Z-cT4jKAEqEJ:www.psych.ucalgary.ca/students/courses/notes/f03/PSYC431/TherapistSelf-Disclosure.pdf+therapy+%22inappropriate+self-disclosure%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
In reply to a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:24:46
The previous link was from a college psychology course I am guessing? Looked like it.
Now, here is a link from a legal standpoint, not that you are off to court or anything, just to show you what can get therps in trouble http://kspope.com/ethics/malpractice.php
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:49:57
In reply to Re: a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
Two more links, and then I better get back to work!
This is about doctors, not therps, but go to the "Verbal Behavior" paragraph, and it explains what I have been trying to say. http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:eyTpONRdrhkJ:www.bmp.state.mn.us/Newsletters/fall97.pdf+%22boundary+violations%22+%22inappropriate+self-disclosure%22+%22boundary+violations%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Another link. Scroll down to Avoid sexual misconduct, the "Client signs" and "Therapist signs" sections. http://cmhs.utoledo.edu/npiazza/Courses/Orientation/Dual.htm
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 14:09:18
In reply to Re: a long link, will it work?, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:29:09
Posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 12:59:39
I think your therapist did the right thing. But I don't know if that falls under guidelines (the fact that he mentioned that he masturbates to you).
Btw, what is the standard guideline for sexual contact between a therapist and a client? How long after termination is that acceptable?
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:29:44
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long) » All Done, posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 1:22:21
> I told my Therapist that if they ended up in therapy at 40, I want them to talk about their DAD, not me! LOL
That's so funny! I said almost the same thing to my therapist when he made the comment he did. I told him I'll just let my husband screw our son up instead. Right, like I'm not going to take full responsibility for everything that happens to my kid. Well, I should say for all of the *bad* things that happen, but I suppose that's a topic for another day...
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 14:32:38
In reply to Re: Ummm uh oh?, posted by pinkeye on January 15, 2004, at 14:14:56
> Btw, what is the standard guideline for sexual contact between a therapist and a client? How long after termination is that acceptable?
The APA says 2 years I think (I think it's in one of the articles Joslynn linked to), but some groups say never. Never is the safe standard - sexual contact even with a former client could end a therapist's career, if a lawsuit should arise or something of that nature. And I can't see how it could ever be truly mentally or emotionally healthy for the former client. I guess there are always exceptions to the rules, but IMO, too many chances...
P
Posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:33:46
In reply to Re: Are we all cookies? (long), posted by All Done on January 15, 2004, at 14:29:44
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