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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Joslynn on January 14, 2004, at 16:48:29
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 14, 2004, at 16:31:00
I thought you said that he told you "Yes, I do fantasize about my clients sometimes when I masturbate."
So, to me, I would read that as, he is fantasizing about sleeping with them as he does that. I mean, isn't that, er, what people usually think of when they say that they fantasize to masturbate?
And I know he didn't say you specifically, but he said clients in general, and you are a client. Then later on, he referred to you as beautiful.
So, if I were you, I would just naturally assume that I was one of the clients in the fantasies? I mean, since he's a guy, he would probably fantasize about the young beautiful clients like you, not the pudgy middle-aged guy, right? (No offense to middle aged guys.)
Also, that's ok if you are crass as you say. That is completely fine. But as a professional, should he be crass as well? Should he always match your tone? That is what I wonder...
But don't believe us...do a search or maybe there are some books out about it?
Anyway, I'm sorry if I have upset you, so I won't say anything else. Just food for thought.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 16:59:11
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 14, 2004, at 16:31:00
I apologize. I don't always write as well as I speak..
"Well sometimes when a client or you walk in and look pretty I may think it, but then I dismiss the thought and get on with therapy. You're beautiful (he's sweet isn't he?? :) and I'm cute but it doesn't affect therapy.
think "IT" as in being pretty, not IT as in sleeping with a client. that's what he meant and said. I wish I could just talk sometimes instead of write. And that was later in the conversation....
I'm sorry about the bessie comment.... I didn't eman anything by it... Really, promise :) And I'm not upset in the least, promise :) I think he's handsome, but I couldn't sleep with him, as much as I talk about it. I have a real fear of sex with people I know. Odd, huh? I know hwy and am trying to work past it. But, it is hard work.
Posted by crushedout on January 14, 2004, at 17:02:14
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 16:59:11
Posted by crushedout on January 14, 2004, at 17:07:35
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 16:59:11
I still think that taken as a whole, he's admitted to being attracted to you, and/or thinking about having sex with his clients (as Joslynn pointed out) (most likely both) and that does not seem particularly helpful or appropriate. Nor does the fact that it doesn't bother you make it less inappropriate, IMO. But I *like* inappropriate, as I've said, and you have no need to defend your T from me.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 17:17:16
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Joslynn on January 14, 2004, at 16:48:29
Oh girlie (is that ok??), you haven't offended me in the least...Please continue to post....
He never gave the impression that he fantasized about me. He only said that he has fantasized about clients. I wouldn't even suspect that he has fantasized about me, honestly. Possibly, maybe? I don't know.I truly understand your concern and I do watch for signs of certain boundary crossings. But I don't see this as one. I respect the fact that he answered my question because I have an aversion to sex. And this is his way of reinforcing the fact that it is ok to fantasize about whoever you chose.
And I fantasize abot sleeping with people that I would never actually sleep with, or even think about acting upon those urges, you know? I mean those fantasizes are your own to keep. I see your concern with him telling me, butin his eyes, telling me was just reinforcing the fact that you don't need permission to think about sex with other people, JUST TO THINK ABOUT IT. That's what I'm thinking he was doing. Is that boundary crossing?
And he has told me on several occassions that I'm beautiful, to boost my self esteem. And I know I'm a beautiful lady. So, to refer to me as beautiful wasn't reinforcing that he was "thinking" about m4e in particular. That was later in the conversation when I asked if personal feelings get in the way of therapy. Personal feelings as in frustration with clients. Times like this I wish I had a tape recorder to play back, you know?? :) So I could remember exactly what happened. But, I think what he was saying at that time was that he couldn't get distracted because someone looked nice on a particular day, not that he wanted to have sex with them.. It wasn't said at that point in the conversation. It was eons later and eons before that conversation.
I just appreciate his honesty and candor. I read a lot of posts where others can't be so frank and their therapists aren't either. I'm glad that I can be. I'm glad that I'm really beginning to trust him to be honest with me and that I can be honest with him. But don't worry, if I feel that he's openly friendly or too open with compliments, I'll let him know.
I just wonder if he's thinking about me tonight... And that's a joke of course :)
Posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 17:42:42
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 14, 2004, at 17:07:35
Oh my!! I don't know what to say! I WISH I was that brave. For the record, I don't think he crossed a boundary in the least. You asked a frank question and got a frank answer. That's what I would have wanted (unless it's about a diagnosis...) Well, I can't believe he admitted to masturbating (I can't even type that word without blushing), and while thinking about clients. Makes me wonder about my darling doctor. I mean darling in a purely innocent way. You know of course, I also have issues with sex. I am just speechless. I was just busting out with laughter!! I think thats just great that you got an answer. :)
Elle
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 18:16:58
In reply to Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 14:32:04
You are so funny, Karen. I'll bet he enjoys having you as a client. I wouldn't ever ask my therapist that. But of course my therapist doesn't fantasize about his female clients... or movie stars.... or his wife. He never ever ever masturbates. And he has never had sex in his life.
On the other hand, that's what makes it so easy to talk to him about sex. He knows *about* it of course, but not by personal knowledge.
rofl.
(Don't ever anyone disillusion me. I won't be able to talk about sex with him anymore.)
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 18:31:40
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 18:16:58
That being said, I suppose I should add that my therapist would never ever talk about himself and sex in the same sentence. I might ask him things like do people *really* enjoy sex??!!! Because it seems totally incomprehensible to me. And he'll answer with a smile that most people do enjoy it. But he would never say that *he* enjoyed it. He allows me my fantasy that he is neuter in gender.
Although once I was telling him about giggling over "The Joy of Sex" as a teen, and he was surprised that my girlfriend had just been able to buy it at the bookstore, no problem. I mentioned that there hadn't been photos, just drawings. And he mentioned some color drawings or something that I didn't remember. He grinned and said he did. So I guess when he was much much younger sex might have crossed his mind just once. But that was a loooong time ago. I'm sure he hasn't thought of it once since. :)
Posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 19:03:04
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 18:31:40
I feel somewhat cheated. I spent today talking about my career...I'd much rather have been talking about sex.
Ok, that was a lie. The one time we went anywhere near the subject I turned bright red and looked at the floor.
Still...it is fun to imagine myself brave enough to either 1) ask those questions or 2) admit I looked at the Joy of Sex (the Nuns would get me).
God, I'm pathetic.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 19:26:21
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 19:03:04
How in the world I forgot it is BEYOND me, but......(drum roll please)......
He was talking and somehow he mentioned something and this slipped out...."and that's why you are one of my favorite clients." I didn't even ask, and I said, "I've been trying to get you to say that forever, why did you just now admit it?" He admitted that I walked into it! YAHOO!!!! I didn't even ask him!!! He just said it! Of course, I always knew it. I mean, come on ladies, how could I not be one of his favorite clients?
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:28:55
In reply to Forgot the best Part!!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 19:26:21
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:34:29
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by DaisyM on January 14, 2004, at 19:03:04
> Still...it is fun to imagine myself brave enough to either 1) ask those questions or 2) admit I looked at the Joy of Sex (the Nuns would get me).
>
I must confess that it was my friend who had the nerve to buy it. But my Mom bought us Playgirl and offered to answer any questions we had. Talk about taking all the fun out of sex. (smile) My mom was a brilliant disciplinarian. She also gave me absolutely no curfew and let my boyfriend and I hang out in my bedroom because she "trusted" me.No wonder I was a virgin when I married. :)
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:34:55
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:34:29
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 19:39:24
In reply to KAREN KAY!!!!!!, posted by Elle2021 on January 14, 2004, at 17:42:42
But Elle, do you think he thinks about me? Now I'm curious to take this just a teenie tiny step further and ask. Is that bad? *Typing ever so carefully like it's a secret I don't want anyone else to hear....shhhhh* But, everyone else, feel free to respond as well....
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 19:41:40
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!!, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:34:29
Dinah, I actually have a copy of the blasted, outdated book sitting on my book shelf. Gathering dust is about all it is good for now. And let me tell you about those pictures. Well, maybe I shouldn't.....
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:45:10
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 16:21:28
Psssst. Karen. I forgot to congratulate you. :)
I got furious with my therapist once for recommending the book "For Yourself : The Fulfillment of Female Sexuality", which proved that he never listened to a word I said. For Yourself was never a problem. I needed a book called "With Another", or maybe "How to Have Sex, Without Running Screaming from the Room".
That makes how many of us with a sexual aversion problem? We should form a club...
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:05:44
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:45:10
I know the reason for my sexual aversion. I'm a wildcat when there's no emotional attachment. MEOW! It's all about control, or lack thereof. What would the name of our club be? I'm thinking and I'll get back to you on that one.
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 20:23:27
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:05:44
Chuckle. Well, I'm never a wildcat. It seems to have been born and bred in me. With no explanation that I can see.
Posted by Joslynn on January 14, 2004, at 20:29:58
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 17:17:16
Karen, you asked me: "I see your concern with him telling me, but in his eyes, telling me was just reinforcing the fact that you don't need permission to think about sex with other people, JUST TO THINK ABOUT IT. That's what I'm thinking he was doing. Is that boundary crossing?"
Well, since you asked, I don't think it's a boundary crossing for him to say "you don't need permission to think about sex with other people" blah blah and talk about it in a general way.
I do, however, think it was a boundary crossing from him to tell you that he sometimes fantasizes about clients when he masturbates. (He did say that literally, right?) That's completely different than talking about fantasies theoretically.
My understanding was that therapists etc are not supposed to disclose very personal details about their lives, especially about their sex lives. Also, I don't think they are supposed to disclose fantasies or dreams about patients. I'm sure I have read this somewhere, but could not tell you where.
And also, I don't think that this means he would ever make a pass at you or anything that blatant. My concern isn't anything that obvious, but more that he has stepped out of a professional/healer role and in some way is enjoying the fantasies that both of you have...
I don't think it's wrong for him to masturbate about patients, but for him to tell a patient that...well that's weird, to me, it gets in a zone that worried me a bit. Personally, I would not want my shrink to talk about his masturbation fantasies at all, whether they involved me, Claudi Schiffer, or the Fed Ex guy!
But I am glad you are not upset with what I said. I do not have the sexual issues you talked about (though I have plenty of other issues!), so maybe his honesty is helping you in a way I cannot understand.
SIgned, Bessie (Neiggghhhh!)
(That was supposed to be a horse noise. I thought Bessie was a horse, not a cow.)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:32:16
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 20:23:27
Holy cow! I know that sex is something that needs to come up (no pun intended)in my sessions one of these days, but I can't bear to bring it up. My T actually said, "I am aware that you made reference to sexual issues earlier, and I didn't respond. I want you to know that I am colluding with at this moment in letting that go."
So basically, he was saying, I think, "I know you need to talk about this, but I won't make you until you are ready."
Karen Kay, you are SO far ahead of me! I'll have to see if I can channel you one day in session and be brave.
g
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:50:14
In reply to sexual boundary crossing » Karen_kay, posted by Joslynn on January 14, 2004, at 20:29:58
I agree that Bessie is a horse and that is why you so woaaaa! To slow her down....But, back to the important topic at hand..... (And thanks for the humor...I find it very important to reassure me that there are no hard feelings and such.)
I can see your point. And I do delight in the fact that I get answers to my questions. However, I'm not having any type of sexual feelings towards my therapist, nor would I ever sleep with him. I know this isn't the issue. I suppose the issue is if he is crossing a boundary. The odd thing is, when he said that he recently had a birthday I remarked, "Why didn't you tell me, I would have sent a card?" He said, "That would be crossing a boundary. You shouldn't know my birthday for a reason. Just like I don't have pictures of my wife up because you may compare yourself to her, ect..." So, he's strict about some boundaries....I see your point. I think that he is honestly trying to reinforce to me that fantasies and masturbation, ect are not something to be avoided or written off as bad. If he were to somehow avoid the question then I would get the impression that I was bad for asking about a "bad" subject. My aversion to sex is so bad in fact that I (I can't believe I'm admitting this AGHHHHH!!!!!) can't even touch myself. And it has to do with childhood trauma. The only way that I can seriously discuss sex is with negative terms such as dirty or bad. (When I told him that I thought about him when I masturbated, the way I said it at first was, "I have bad thoughts about you." It actually threw him off and was quite cute. He replied, "Do you think about killing me?" Wait a minute, is he just a smart a** like me? :)
So, I think by avoiding the question, in a way would be reinforcing, in my head, that having thoughts about another person was wrong?????? I don't know??? Someone else....Help me defend my shrink..Please!!!!!
Posted by EmmyS on January 14, 2004, at 21:37:03
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:50:14
Wow. Personally I believe it is inappropriate, for a therapist to discuss any aspect of their private sex life with a patient. Most especially with a curious opposite sex patient. No exceptions - it's a boundary crossed. He can always use examples of other people, generalize, fabricate even, to make his point. He does not disclose his masturbation practices.
I also think it is very dangerous to his own professional life and his ability to successfully negotiate boundaries (see above!) when he to allows himself to include patients in his mastabatory fantasies. To actually tell you that is astounding.
I realize he is young, but any graduate would know these common sense concepts. If he were in a college internship setting, and this occurred - he would be kicked out of the program.
I know that's not what you wanted to hear...but you asked for feedback. He seriously needs to talk to his supervisor....but I imagine he won't.
Em
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 21:38:25
In reply to Re: Ok Ladies, Listen UP!!!! » Karen_kay, posted by crushedout on January 14, 2004, at 17:07:35
think: to have as an intention
fantasize: to indulge in reverie : create or develop imaginative and often fantastic views or ideas; or to portray in the mind.Now, I'm not big on literal meanings at all or anything like that, but he's not actually thinking about having sex with me or another client, he's merely fantasizing about it. And he never once hinted at or mentioned me. I was never given the impression that he would ever think about me, and I assure you I don't have a low self image, can't you tell by my posts :)(I rather hate it when people get all technical on me...I'm sorry to do this...Please forgive me...)
I must say I was a bit jealous when your therapist gave you that cd (Oh, I hope I'm right here, that was you right?). I too don't mind inappropriate. I'm rather inappropriate at times. Well, come to think of it, most of the time :) It's not that I'm defending his behavior. It's just that I don't necesarily see it as inappropriate, in my eyes. He swears about as frequently as I do as well. Is that bad? Boundaries vary from therapist to therapist and I would guess from client to client and I appreciate his honesty and straightforwardness (is that one word? :) I need to start using the spell checker!) in this situation. I sincerely didn't take it as a come-on of any sort. And trust me, I take a glance as a come-on!
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 21:41:14
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 20:50:14
I'll say this, Karen. I strongly suspect that when he gets a few more years under his belt, he won't be quite as forthcoming. He sounds like he might get a bit flustered from time to time. So if you like his style, and are glad he answered your questions honestly, be happy you got a just barely 29 year old therapist.
In a few years he'll be gently asking why you are asking that question and what you imagine the answer to be and what it would mean to you if he did fantasize about his clients.
Which is not a criticism of him. I think it's great that you were able to ask a straight question and get a straight answer. Goodness knows most of us wonder in one way or another whether our therapists think about us. You sure got an answer to that. :)
(But you said in a previous post that you'll keep an eye out for boundary crossings - probably not a bad idea.)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 14, 2004, at 21:56:29
In reply to Re: sexual boundary crossing » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 21:41:14
Goodness! I was scared for a while that my therapist might have to say bye bye or something over me asking a silly question. Sheeew! I feel better now. I appreciate an honest answer more than a game of cat and mouse. Now that I can't stand. Maybe that question was a bit risque, but my friends in Babbleland did want to know and who better to ask than yours truly? And besides, I kinda figured he would answer. Not because he is inappropriate, just because he doesn't feed me crap and he doesn't shy away from the hard questions. And maybe a little because I know how to get him flustered :) Does that make me mean or manipulative? Naaaaa....
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