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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:21:21
In reply to Re: Uncle! » jay, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
If you are going to be vulnerable and admit to an erotic transference, you should order the video Penny suggested
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310570.html?CFID=2493388&CFTOKEN=89863392
And give it to your therapist to watch a few weeks ahead of time.
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 14:35:40
In reply to But perhaps....., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:21:21
> If you are going to be vulnerable and admit to an erotic transference, you should order the video Penny suggested
>
> http://www.apa.org/videos/4310570.html?CFID=2493388&CFTOKEN=89863392
>
> And give it to your therapist to watch a few weeks ahead of time.
<chuckle>My feelings, however, are a bit different - I agree that perhaps you should be wary of being completely open about your feelings with your therapist, if you are afraid of being abandoned...
BUT
if your therapist terminates b/c you express strong feelings for him or her, then *perhaps* you are better off...
b/c, IMO, those feelings are something that need to be dealt with IN the therapeutic relationship, as part of the therapeutic relationship - and therapists shouldn't be running from them...
P
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:42:58
In reply to Re: Uncle! » jay, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
Thanks for sharing Dinah..
That's very sad.. I agree that transference may scare some therapists that lack the training to deal with it, I think like you that if a therapist leaves a patient because of the way a patient feels and because the patient shares or discloses those feelings, it just shows that the therapist lacks the experience or training and doesn't realize how much damage they can be doing to the patient by discouraging them to keep their feelings hidden for fear of being abandoned. I guess the best thing is to know this before entering therapy..i would definitely stay away from those therapists who are afraid of a patient's feelings...
Jay mentions how transference could be damaging for abuse survivors...
I understand that some therapists cross boundaries and may hurt a patient...
But I don't think that "keeping transference low" is the best for abuse survivors...On the contrary...
I have been feeling this in my heart since I read that post and I just wanted to share..that being an abuse survivor..if my therapist were to leave me because of my feelings for her, or because I express my feelings that would be doing me so much harm, because it would be enforcing the belief that my feelings are wrong and that there is something wrong in how I feel that causes others to leave me or hurt me. All my life I've been told my feelings are not okay and I shouldn't show any emotion because I would be punished in the worst way for feeling, and I would expect that therapy should help me to challenge that belief and to start believing that my feelings are OK no matter what and that I can express how I feel without the fear of being abandoned/punished.I feel sad that that's Jay's view in treating abuse survivors..I feel that those people like me would be losing so much again ...if they go to therapy hoping to feel supported and to feel safe and accepted for the first time in their lives, and then be abandoned because they express their feelings to their therapists. I am sorry, but I think that could be of help to an abuse survivor who is desperately needing to feel accepted (completely- including feelings) and supported and to feel like a whole person deserving of care and acceptance.
(there are some therapists who abuse their patients yet again, and cross boundaries and that is very very wrong and abusive)Just wanted to say that..
Fortunately, there are lots of therapists out there who welcome transference as an opportunity to help the patient grow and to enrich therapy.
I have asked my therapist about this in the past, and she has never said that she would leave me because of anything I could feel. That I could tell her whatever I felt for her, no matter what. I have tried really hard to convince myself it is ok to share feelings...and that there's no shame in them. She has reassured me all the time that it is perfectly okay to feel and tell her what i feel for her, and that it is all part of the process.
I can see how erotic transference may be hard to handle for those therapists without experience or training. But still, I can't think how keeping those feelings hidden could be of help...
All this just makes me aware that there are lots of therapists who get scared of a patient's feelings (and lack the training to know what to do or how to react) and they may do more harm than good.I wouldn't want patients to feel they don't have to talk about their feelings for their therapists..
and that crossing the line and putting those feelings into words is the 'sin' of therapy (as Jay has said in another post).
If a therapist can't handle those feelings it doesn't mean it is wrong or was wrong for the patient to put them into words..For me it means that the therapist is not trained or experienced.
It saddens me that it seems some therapists think this way :o(Just my thoughts and feelings...
Adia.
> I said I would report accurately anything I discovered. I still think I and the others are right in theory. And I would still hope that the vast majority of therapists would not abandon their clients for the "offense" of expressing loving feelings.
>
> But there appear to be enough therapists who are afraid of the erotic transference, and will transfer out a client who expresses one, that expressing an erotic transference to your therapist is risky if you fear abandonment.
>
> My new advice would be:
>
> There is nothing at all shameful in any feelings you might have towards your therapist. It is relatively common, and a relatively natural outcome of the therapeutic situation. But if you are going to share your feelings with your therapist, be aware that you are running the risk of your therapist referring you on. Be very sure you are willing to take that risk before being that vulnerable with your therapist.
>
> So with that, I adjourn. Very much saddened.
>
> P.S. It is still not an ethical requirement that a therapist refer on such a patient, and referring on a patient still reflects a lack of ability on the therapist's part to handle it, not any fault of the patient.
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:50:11
In reply to Re: But perhaps....., posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 14:35:40
Hi Penny,
thank you for sharing...
I completely agree...If I disclose my feelings and my therapist leaves me (I have huge abandonment issues) then maybe I would be better off, because I can't see how a therapist that runs away from feelings could be of any help.
I too believe those feelings are part of the relationship and the whole process, and should be talked about and worked through and a good therapist should welcome them as an opportunity for growth...
I feel sad to see that some therapists don't believe this...I feel they are the ones missing how therapy truly should work..they may lack the training or experience..I would stay away from a therapist who is afraid of a patient's feelings and who thinks patients should keep those feelings to themselves..Thanks for sharing,
Adia.> if your therapist terminates b/c you express
> b/c, IMO, those feelings are something that need to be dealt with IN the therapeutic relationship, as part of the therapeutic relationship - and therapists shouldn't be running from them...
>
> P
>
>
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:54:17
In reply to Re: Uncle! » Dinah, posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:42:58
Meant to say just the opposite!
I am sorry, but I CAN'T think how that could be of help to an abuse survivor who is desperately needing to feel accepted (completely- including feelings) and supported and to feel like a whole person deserving of care and acceptance.
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 15:23:08
In reply to don't know where my mind is! sorry, I meant to say, posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 14:54:17
I guess maybe we ARE the lucky ones - perhaps that could be a question for those who are looking for a new therapist - ask them up front how they handle transference issues? (for those who have never been in therapy - trust me - this is a subject that is likely to come up at some point, whether you use the term 'transference' or not!)
As for those currently in therapy who don't know how your therapist would react - I hope you are as fortunate as I have been. My therapist is very accepting of being 'loved'.
And I hope that, some day, when I am a therapist, I will handle those situations with the grace and professionalism that my therapists and pdoc have handled them with. All the more reason to continue with my own therapy...
P
Posted by Tabitha on October 9, 2003, at 15:25:24
In reply to Re: Uncle! » jay, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 14:14:41
Dinah I think it depends on the type of therapy and training of the therapist. When you and I say 'therapy' we're thinking of long-term, open-ended, interpersonal work. Those types of therapies include the client's feelings toward the therapist as part of the work-- so it's desirable and even necessary to voice them. And I still think any therapist who's skilled in keeping good emotional boundaries with their clients would be able to handle such a disclosure. They wouldn't want to encourage an attraction or act on it of course-- but it wouldn't be a taboo topic of discussion.
My therapist encourages me to tell her any of my feelings toward her. She still manages to keep her 'self' out of the room and keep the focus on me and my feelings. Usually discussing my feelings toward her only takes part of the session, then it feels resolved for me and we go on to my stuff. I'm amazed at her skill in this regard. I know almost nothing about her and her feelings, yet I still feel attached and cared for. I have not developed an erotic transference or a love obsession during our therapy. I don't know if that's me or her skill-- but I think her skill at keeping the focus on me has a lot to do with it.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
In reply to Re: Uncle! » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 9, 2003, at 15:25:24
I am so depressed. I had always hoped that if you plunk down your money for a trained professional, you got someone who was trained in the usual situations that crop up in his/her profession.
Well, I do. And I'm glad you guys do. I wish everyone did. But as usual, I'm mad at my therapist for the action of other therapists. :)
You're absolutely right on all counts, all of you. And you rather especially Adia.
I'm kind of glad now that I never had a sexualized transference. Although I'm sure he would have handled it just fine.
Siiiiiigggghhhhh.
I'm going to go sit on my closet floor. Then get a few copies of that video and donate it to my university libraries.
Posted by Tabitha on October 9, 2003, at 19:09:16
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Dinah Hon, I wish I could pluck you off that closet floor and drop you into a world full of skilled compassionate therapists who never fail their clients, and wise and just internet board moderators. But I can't.
I did however bring this one issue to my therapist. I said there's someone saying that if a client tells their therapist they're attracted to them, the therapist is ethically required to terminate. She looked puzzled for a second and said matter of factly 'That's wrong.'
Posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 19:17:59
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Dinah, I can't stand that you're not posting anywhere but here. Please reconsider. I sincerely doubt that you-know-who even cares if people are mad at him.
I think everyone has pretty well shown that disclosure of strong feelings for your therapist is no mortal sin, and no responsible therapist would even consider terminating except if he/she couldn't handle his/her own emotions.
You've done a wonderful job here. Thank you for your diligence. I hope your therapist realizes how lucky he is to have you. I know I/we do.
Posted by karen_kay on October 9, 2003, at 19:44:33
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All » Dinah, posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 19:17:59
Jay, I find it disgusting that you would even mention the possibility of a therapist abandoning a client for expressing their attraction torwards the therapist. I personally have told my psychologist things like "Can I sit on your lap?" when he mentioned the aspect of reparenting. When he hospitalized me I said that a more appropriate option would be for him to hold me down all weekend. I tell him all the time how good he looks. I told him on the first consultation that I have a serious problem with becoming attracted to authority figures. I am completely innappropriate torwards my therapist. Yet, he has never once asked me to leave his office. This is because he is comfortable in the fact that he is a professional and can handle issues of sexual attraction and transference. You should not post notices with the intent of scaring people into not being completely honest with their therapists. A good a professional therapist should be capable of handling issues of transference. So people, I urge you to say what you need to! They can handle it. That is why they make the big bucks!
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Maybe I'll drag myself back to life.
Sorry Penny for stealing your link.
Here's a link to the whole thread
I feel a little better now (or is it the klonopin).
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:01:16
In reply to Ok, a bit of hope., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 9, 2003, at 22:09:03
In reply to Ok, a bit of hope., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
I suppose that there is some hope. First, some therapies, like psychodynamic, specifically use transference as a tool. Like anything powerful, if it can be used and manipulated, it remains powerful, but is also a tool. I think that if a therapist is properly trained, the affection of a client is nothing to be feared.
Even in the case of an abuse survivor, realizing that she can have strong feelings for an authority figure, and that this authority figure will not take advantage of her, this can be an incredible realization and healing experience for the survivor.
I am a survivor. I haven't had the opportunity to experience strong or sexual transference. Perhaps I am still too distanced from my feelings. I can certainly state though, that I am an adult. I have entered therapy with the realization that an emotional or sexual relationship will not happen. My fantasies would remain fantasies. If my therapist thought them improper, I would expect her or him to tell me so, and if they could not be reigned in then that would be the time to move on. Fellings alone though, are the things that we all have, and need to treat responsibly.
Hoping I'm not way off base :-)
Dee.
Posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 22:22:34
In reply to Re: Ok, a bit of hope. » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 9, 2003, at 22:09:03
I'm sure this has been covered ad nauseum in other historical threads, but as I'm getting attached to everyone here, do you care to share your stories?
My parents never cared one whit about my emotional well-being, they just concerned themselves with whether I was obedient. I was tortured and tormented by a gang in 5th grade, and then again by a couple of co-workers as an adult. I have difficulty showing my emotions, yet I yearn to connect with people emotionally. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to do that.
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 22:32:20
In reply to Histories, posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 22:22:34
Hi Hannah ... :o)
maybe we should start a new thread with this?
I too would like to share and get to know others a little better...
I am thinking of a new thread because i fear it will be lost here..?
Thank you for sharing about you...
I am so glad you are here :o)
lots of love,
Adia.> I'm sure this has been covered ad nauseum in other historical threads, but as I'm getting attached to everyone here, do you care to share your stories?
>
> My parents never cared one whit about my emotional well-being, they just concerned themselves with whether I was obedient. I was tortured and tormented by a gang in 5th grade, and then again by a couple of co-workers as an adult. I have difficulty showing my emotions, yet I yearn to connect with people emotionally. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to do that.
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 22:42:40
In reply to Ok, a bit of hope., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
Dear Dinah,
of course there is hope :o) There are lots of wonderful therapists out there who do not fear their patient's feelings...I hang on to that.
I can't wait to see my therapist tomorrow and feel that yes there is hope :o) I am sure your therapist will help you feel the same...Thank you for being here, Dinah...
I am sending you lots and lots of support,
Adia.> Maybe I'll drag myself back to life.
>
> Sorry Penny for stealing your link.
>
> Here's a link to the whole thread
>
> http://www.behavior.net/cgi-bin/nph-display.cgi?MessageID=1931&Top=-1&config=legalissues&uid=nC1M8.user&new=0&adm=0
>
> I feel a little better now (or is it the klonopin).
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2003, at 1:37:32
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by karen_kay on October 9, 2003, at 19:44:33
> I find it disgusting that you would even mention the possibility of a therapist abandoning a client...
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by judy1 on October 10, 2003, at 10:45:30
In reply to Re: Ok, a bit of hope. » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 9, 2003, at 22:09:03
I have such a different perspective on all of this because I was abused as a child and then abused by a psychiatrist- which eventually led to a serious suicide attempt by me. I acknowledge that there are excellent therapists out there who recognize the special needs of a person with my history (I have one now), but we all need to accept that there are some who transgress boundaries and cause great harm to their clients. I guess I like the advice given on the forum you posted on Dinah, that clients need to be very selective when getting a therapist- particularly those with a history of abuse. Knowledge is everything, recognizing the signs of a therp who crosses boundaries- the hugging, non-payment of fees, etc.- all those things that make us feel special, can be the things that lead us to self-destruct. sorry to be so negative, this is why my shrink is so incredibly careful with me. i really shouldn't post on this- judy
Posted by karen_kay on October 10, 2003, at 15:16:25
In reply to Re: Ok, a bit of hope., posted by judy1 on October 10, 2003, at 10:45:30
I just think that some clients develope feelings of transference for their therapists as a way of dealing with former relationships in the past. A therapist, if trained properly, should know how to deal with these feelings accurately and professionally. I do not believe that an experienced therapist will abandon a client on the sole account that the client is developing feelings towards the therapist, whether they are sexual or motherly, ect. If a therapist does, then the client if far better off to find a new therapist who is better equiped to handle such feelings and emotions. When seeing a therapist, it is so important to be honest with him or her. I know how much my current therapist has helped me and I look forward to the progress we will continue to make in the future.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
In reply to Re: The last post is the one that gives hope (nm), posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:01:16
He really is great. :)
He said that what we usually say is perfectly fine, but to add the reminder that not all therapists are trained to handle transference well, and that if the therapist doesn't handle it well it's the therapist's problem not the client's. And for the client not to feel that they had done anything wrong or that their feelings were unacceptable.
He told me that his training was woefully lacking in transference issues. And that most of what he learned was through ongoing supervision which he is a big fan of. (He stopped short of saying whether he still seeks out supervision or has during the time he's seen me. Didn't want to freak me out I guess. I think I'm going to ask next week.)
He said erotic transferences have come up a few times in his career and he never terminated anyone for it. He just clearly laid out the boundaries and it was never a problem.
While I was at it, I also mentioned googling therapists, which my therapist thinks is no big deal. He says that's public domain and it doesn't bother him a bit. He says going through his trash, or following him or his family would be an invasion of privacy, but not googling. He mentioned some therapists didn't like that clients could find out their addresses, but he's got his on his receipts so he doesn't mind. :) I admitted that I drove by his house once, because he lives really close to me, and I wanted to see exactly how close. He was perfectly relaxed about that. He knew that I was upset about how close he lived to me and understood that I wanted to reassure myself. He said we hadn't run into each other yet, and I set him straight. I saw him a couple of times at stores, but made a run for it. (We explored that a bit.)
He had that really careful attitude that made me aware he was wondering whether to expect an impassioned declaration of erotic transference. lol. And was prepared to be low key and reassuring about it. But that wasn't necessary. :)
So I think we've covered most everything we've talked about here over the years.
Googling
Drive by's
Erotic transference
Meeting in publicIf I've missed anything, let me know and I'll work it into the conversation on a slow day. :)
Oh, and we've extensively covered mother/baby transference and dependence in the past. He's grown tremendously as a therapist in those areas. :)
I'm so happy my therapist is who he is. :)))))))
Posted by underthecs on October 10, 2003, at 21:03:30
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 21:07:14
In reply to wish i could be that brave. you're awesome! (nm) » Dinah, posted by underthecs on October 10, 2003, at 21:03:30
Posted by Tabitha on October 10, 2003, at 21:54:00
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
good for you! you've made the world a better place by training him to be a better mom-substitute. And good for you for bringing up such sensitive issues with him.
Posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 0:43:00
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 10, 2003, at 21:54:00
Wow, I missed this whole discussion. What great articles etc. The description for the video is particularly good.
I think this thread contains good agreement. If the therapist is competent, then the client should talk about all of her feelings towards the therapist. What a relief. I don't think I could survive a therapy session where I had to decide if I could or couldn't talk about something. It is hard enough to decide if I WANT to talk about something.
My old therapist does her supervision in a group. She has brought my case to her group twice (that I know of). Particularly the second time, it made me feel like her "problem child". I was flattered that she was thinking about me so much, but certainly didn't want her to be unhappy or mad about me.
These are great discussions.
Dinah, thank you for your passion on this subject. Your concern that other posters will get the wrong idea and be hurt in therapy, or not get out of therapy what they could is so wonderful. It can be especially hard to step back in these cases and know that we can only do what we can do, and that we won't be able to convince all of the people all of the time, but that the world will still go on. Dinah, you have done a superb job of trying to point our corner of the world in the right direction. Thanks.
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