Psycho-Babble Politics Thread 581252

Shown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

The Usual Thing

Posted by Declan on November 22, 2005, at 12:59:51

This was quoted in (what there is of ) the independant press here, still existing, before this government allows the sale of Fairfax to Murdoch or Packer.

It's from a speech given in 1965. South Vietnam at Australia's request has just requested Australia to help.
Here's what Calwell, leader of the Australian Labor Party said in the conclusion of his speech opposing the then popular committment.

'And I address this message to my colleagues and that vast band of Labor men and women outside; the course we have agreed to take today is fraught with difficulty. I cannot promise you that easy popularity can be bought in times like these. Nor are we looking for it. When the drums beat and the trumpets sound, the voice of reason and right can be heard in the land only with difficulty.....But I offer you the sure and certain knowledge we will be vindicated, that generations to come will record with gratitude that when a reckless government wilfully endangered the security of this country, the voice of the Labor Party was heard, strong and clear.'

I never had that much hope for my country, but I could weep for what has become of the Australian Labor Party.

Declan

 

Re: The Usual Thing » Declan

Posted by Jakeman on November 22, 2005, at 19:36:38

In reply to The Usual Thing, posted by Declan on November 22, 2005, at 12:59:51

> This was quoted in (what there is of ) the independant press here, still existing, before this government allows the sale of Fairfax to Murdoch or Packer.
>
> It's from a speech given in 1965. South Vietnam at Australia's request has just requested Australia to help.
> Here's what Calwell, leader of the Australian Labor Party said in the conclusion of his speech opposing the then popular committment.
>
> 'And I address this message to my colleagues and that vast band of Labor men and women outside; the course we have agreed to take today is fraught with difficulty. I cannot promise you that easy popularity can be bought in times like these. Nor are we looking for it. When the drums beat and the trumpets sound, the voice of reason and right can be heard in the land only with difficulty.....But I offer you the sure and certain knowledge we will be vindicated, that generations to come will record with gratitude that when a reckless government wilfully endangered the security of this country, the voice of the Labor Party was heard, strong and clear.'
>
> I never had that much hope for my country, but I could weep for what has become of the Australian Labor Party.
>
> Declan

I wonder how many times though-out history this has happened. I'm beginning to consider the terrible thought that people want war...or that nations need an enemy. I started to go on about Iraq but I'll stop here.

warm regards ~Jake

 

Re: The Usual Thing » Jakeman

Posted by AuntieMel on November 23, 2005, at 13:48:42

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » Declan, posted by Jakeman on November 22, 2005, at 19:36:38

It's a common political ploy.

If you give the people a common enemy, they don't think about how miserable their lives are otherwise.

If you take away the common enemy, suddenly people start to notice the economy, unemployment rates, etc.

 

Re: The Usual Thing » AuntieMel

Posted by alexandra_k on November 23, 2005, at 15:04:35

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » Jakeman, posted by AuntieMel on November 23, 2005, at 13:48:42

> It's a common political ploy.
> If you give the people a common enemy, they don't think about how miserable their lives are otherwise.
> If you take away the common enemy, suddenly people start to notice the economy, unemployment rates, etc.

Yeah, I think thats right.
Also...
(And please envisage a careful, tentative tone...)

In blaming the incomprehensible 'terrorists' for 9/11...
People don't look to how US governments foreign policy contributed to that situation...
(In terms of the trade sanctions that went on before hand)

 

Re: The Usual Thing » Declan

Posted by alexandra_k on November 23, 2005, at 15:10:22

In reply to The Usual Thing, posted by Declan on November 22, 2005, at 12:59:51

Hey. I don't really know much about what happened to the Australian Labour Party.

Good old Helen Clarke (Labour Party) just managed to scrape into parliament (as PM) this time around.

Phew
Phew

I still have problems with the NZ Labour Party, don't get me wrong...
But I have to say that I do think their hearts are in the right place, though the implementation of that leaves a lot to be desired sometimes.

I was looking at the history of state housing in New Zealand...

Labour Party built them...
National would sell them...
Labour Party would buy them back...
National would sell them...

And so it would continue.

Welfare / Environment (Reasonable quality of life for all and SUSTAINABLE development) vs. the ideal of unlimited economic / material growth at fairly much whatever cost to the poor and the environment.

Labour vs National.

At least... Thats the way I see it.

Hmm.

 

Re: The Usual Thing

Posted by Damos on November 23, 2005, at 15:32:00

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » Declan, posted by alexandra_k on November 23, 2005, at 15:10:22

> Hey. I don't really know much about what happened to the Australian Labour Party.
> Hmm.

The ALP in Australia A-absolutely L-Lost the P-Plot.

About the only thing they stand for at the moment is the National Anthem! Oh, and maybe being more hardline on 'terror' and 'national security' than the Liberal party.

How do you have good government when there is no opposition, let alone an effective one.
>

 

Re: The Usual Thing » Damos

Posted by Declan on November 23, 2005, at 17:05:57

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing, posted by Damos on November 23, 2005, at 15:32:00

Yes Damos. Unlike the ALP the Liberals (and Republicans in the US!), look after their core supporters. The ALP thinks that they'll never get back the voters who left them for Howard unless they are seen to be tougher than the Liberals. The chattering classes have nowhere else to go, unless like me they're thinking of voting green and giving their preference to ANYBODY but the NSW right (in particular the Terrigals in the NSW(?)party, so I am informed they are called by my equally outraged bookseller).
Imagine if the ALP had been elected last time.
Declan

 

Re: The Usual Thing » alexandra_k

Posted by Declan on November 23, 2005, at 17:18:46

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 23, 2005, at 15:04:35

Talking about 'incomprehensible' terrorists. If you know nothing about them, see no point in knowing anything about them, see them as simply evil, well it's not surprising that they should remain incomprehensible.

When the standard of our argument is that to understand something is to justify it, what can you do?

I would guess that very few of us know anything about the history of that part of the world. For example apparently 800 years ago or something one of the popes made a deal with Attilla the Hun or Genghiz Khan or whoever, (what do I know? I only heard about it on Late night Live), to the effect that if he took Bagdhad it was OK as long as the Christians there were spared. Apparently this is something Iraqis know and care about. They're not in Murdochland yet.

Declan

 

Re: The Usual Thing » Jakeman

Posted by zeugma on November 23, 2005, at 17:24:35

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » Declan, posted by Jakeman on November 22, 2005, at 19:36:38

wonder how many times though-out history this has happened. I'm beginning to consider the terrible thought that people want war...or that nations need an enemy. I started to go on about Iraq but I'll stop here>>

Prudence, prudence- stopping here too.

On second thought- nations don't need enemies. But some political agendas certainly do. In fact, I've looked over a few that actually demand it. Hitler's plan for Lebensraum comes to mind, as do a few penned by authors closer to me in time and space.

-z

 

Re: The Usual Thing

Posted by caraher on November 24, 2005, at 4:14:45

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » Jakeman, posted by zeugma on November 23, 2005, at 17:24:35

> wonder how many times though-out history this has happened. I'm beginning to consider the terrible thought that people want war...or that nations need an enemy. I started to go on about Iraq but I'll stop here>>
>
> Prudence, prudence- stopping here too.
>
> On second thought- nations don't need enemies. But some political agendas certainly do. In fact, I've looked over a few that actually demand it. Hitler's plan for Lebensraum comes to mind, as do a few penned by authors closer to me in time and space.

There are some political theorists - whose writings have enjoyed a revival in certain circles - who say "the enemy" is fundamental to a state's identity. For instance, Carl Schmitt and his intellectual descendants. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Schmitt

"Schmitt, in perhaps his best-known formulation, bases his conceptual realm of state sovereignty and autonomy upon the distinction between friends and enemies. This distinction is to be determined "existentially," which is to say that the enemy is whoever is "in a specially intense way, existentially something different and alien, so that in the extreme case conflicts with him are possible." (Schmitt, 1996, p. 27) Such an enemy need not even be based on nationality: so long as the conflict is potentially intense enough to become a violent one between political entities, the actual substance of enmity may be anything. Although there have been divergent interpretations offered of this work, there is broad agreement that "The Concept of the Political" is an attempt to achieve state unity by defining the content of politics as opposition to a foreign "other," and also through the preeminence of the state, which stands as a neutral force over potentially fractious civil society, whose various antagonisms must not be allowed to reach the level of the political, lest civil war result."

 

Re: The Usual Thing » alexandra_k

Posted by AuntieMel on November 28, 2005, at 18:02:28

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 23, 2005, at 15:04:35

"I have been reading about the war...
About trade sanctions...
About how many children died in Iraq as 'collateral damage' from trade sanctions (couldn't get drinkable water)..."

A lot of those kids died because any money that went there for food and medicine was spent on palaces instead.

 

Re: The Usual Thing » AuntieMel

Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 18:41:41

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 28, 2005, at 18:02:28


> A lot of those kids died because any money that went there for food and medicine was spent on palaces instead.

Does that excuse the trade sanctions and the kids that died as a result of that?

I guess it didn't from the POV of the suicide bomber...

 

Re: The Usual Thing

Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 18:53:55

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 18:41:41

with respect to medicine...

do they cost so much because of the patent system which ensures the US corporations make whatever amount of profit they make...

because without that...

the thought is...

people would be out of a job
and then,
of course,
they would be left to die...

 

Re: The Usual Thing

Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 18:55:40

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing, posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 18:53:55

i'm sorry auntiemel...

it is no excuse

but i am indeed having...

a terrible day

 

Re: The Usual Thing

Posted by Declan on November 28, 2005, at 19:28:13

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on November 28, 2005, at 18:02:28

There's a Wordsworth poem, I dunno what it's called, and he's looking out over creation and there is the phrase 'and only man is vile'. It's probably not true, animals can be awful too, I prefer lower down the food chain, the plant kingdom, and colours. We shouldn't excuse US foreign policy because of Saddam or vice versa. There's another Wordsworth poem that starts 'The world is too much with us'.
Declan

 

Re: The Usual Thing

Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 19:35:05

In reply to Re: The Usual Thing, posted by Declan on November 28, 2005, at 19:28:13

> There's a Wordsworth poem, I dunno what it's called, and he's looking out over creation and there is the phrase 'and only man is vile'. It's probably not true, animals can be awful too,

Yeah. Though animals can do little more than their nature... Our nature, however, allows us to have a much much much higher degree of empathy and foresight. At least... It does in theory...

> I prefer lower down the food chain, the plant kingdom, and colours.

Yes. Inanimate objects do no wrong :-)

> We shouldn't excuse US foreign policy because of Saddam or vice versa. There's another Wordsworth poem that starts 'The world is too much with us'.

:-(

I just want everybody to be treasured.
To be shown that they are valued.
To have their basic needs met just because we care about them.
:-(


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