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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 70. Go back in thread:
Posted by Shortelise on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:18
In reply to Whoa! Did I cause all this???, posted by TexasChic on September 1, 2005, at 18:46:24
The State Department said offers had come from Belgium, Canada, Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Britain, China, Australia, Jamaica, Honduras, Greece, Venezuela, the Organization of American States, NATO, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, South Korea, Israel and the United Arab Emirates. That's as of 4 hours ago.
I think you may have no idea how offensive it is to those of us who live elsewhere to hear people say that no one is going to help, as if because we are not in agreement with the politics of a country, we'd ignore the needs of its citizens in the face of catastrophe.
The Canadian province I live in already has Medical doctors there to help. The goverment of Canada has offered to send our equivalent of the National Guard.
France is sending troops, doc and aid. Germany, the same.
The prayers of many are with you.
Posted by TexasChic on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:19
In reply to FOREIGN AID, posted by Shortelise on September 1, 2005, at 20:31:01
At the risk of speaking for other people, I think the talk about not expecting other countries to help is more out of frustration about the actions of our government and how it is viewed by the rest of the world. Alot of us are tired of what we view as hipocracy by our officials, and how it reflects on us. I for one have spoke often about moving to Canada here lately. Unfortunately, its just too cold there for me!
That's just my opinion yall! I hope I haven't made anyone mad by saying it. I know there are alot of people who like Bush too, and I'm certainly not knocking them!
-T
Posted by lynn970 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:19
In reply to FOREIGN AID, posted by Shortelise on September 1, 2005, at 20:31:01
I think that some people just get aggrivated with US foreign policies. I dont think that anyone purposefully try to offend people from other countrie. I love Canada.
>I think you may have no idea how offensive it >is to those of us who live elsewhere to hear >people say that no one is going to help,
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:19
In reply to Re: I wondered about foreign aid also, posted by sunny10 on August 31, 2005, at 9:49:29
Hi sunny
>but everyone seems to hate America these days, so I doubt if any other country will offer to help our non-political devastation of the Gulf Coast...
Whos the "everyone"?
Well everyone but me and others too I strongly imagine like those out in America now. I live in England and hate it here, but very much love America ~ it is probably the best country I have been to so far.
I would just like to point out as well, that others have been affected by this awful hurricane too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4203768.stm
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by sunny10 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:20
In reply to FOREIGN AID, posted by Shortelise on September 1, 2005, at 20:31:01
Now it's me who has to apologize.
I said what I said out of pessimistic resignation- mostly with my own government.
Sorry- and I am soooooooooooo happy to hear that I was wrong.
So happy that you can't imagine.
Posted by sunny10 on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:20
In reply to Re: FOREIGN AID » Shortelise, posted by sunny10 on September 2, 2005, at 9:34:00
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:21
In reply to Re: FOREIGN AID » Shortelise, posted by sunny10 on September 2, 2005, at 9:34:00
Hi Sunny
No worries.
I've been following the hurricane news since it happened and words can't explain what must be going through the minds of the people affected by this, the destruction and life lost.
And then theres the people who have lost their homes and not knowing if their loved ones are alive, it is truely shocking to say the least.
What i'm finding disturbing is what has followed with regards to the reports of, rapes, lootings, shootings and carjackings. At a time when people need to come together to help it is very sad to hear that these incidents are occuring.
I've just read a news report where the head of the New Orleans emergency operations described the relief effort as a national disgrace. Even Bush has condemned the initial response to Hurricane Katrina as "not acceptable"
What i'm surprised by is if what already has happened isn't bad enough with the hurricane, now Louisiana's governor said 300 "battle-tested" National Guardsmen were being sent to quell the unrest.
Even quoted that these troops have M-16's locked and loaded ~ with regards to say they know how to kill and will if they have to.
I've quoted statements from the news report I just read and I am truely shocked by it all. The hurricane was bad enough with the destruction. Some might call a hurricane an 'act of god' but what follows with the things i'm now reading, well, that isn't an act of god like a hurricane thats for sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4208986.stm
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:21
In reply to Do you think, posted by Bobby on August 30, 2005, at 18:34:54
Hi Bobby
>that other countries will pledge aid? Think not.
So you think no other countries will pledge aid?
I think time will tell and you maybe surprised.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Damos on September 3, 2005, at 8:44:22
In reply to Re: I wondered about foreign aid also, posted by sunny10 on August 31, 2005, at 9:49:29
Just heard last night that there's US$10 million in immediate assistance on the way from down under & 20 disaster relief experts too.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2005, at 9:16:05
In reply to Re: please be civil » crazy teresa » alexandra_k, posted by Dr. Bob on September 3, 2005, at 5:39:42
i do sympathise that it is a stressful time for a lot of people.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2005, at 9:31:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by Nickengland on September 3, 2005, at 7:30:51
Hey Nick. Thanks for some facts. I knew it was bad but I didn't appreciate it was quite that bad...
> They also have corrupt leaders in some of those countries, which in some respects can be considered as wicked a Saddam Hussien.
Yeah. Its one thing sending aid...
Its another thing to make sure the people who need that aid recieve it...
> You have to ask the question, would Bush have more of an interest in those poor African countries if there was oil there? vs his attention if there wasn't any in the middle east.Yeah. Oil is one side to it. Spread of democracy is another...
> But again, this could be considered normal-day-to-day living in one of those African countries.Yeah. Hard to know what is worse... To have that be 'normal' with little prospects for genuine improvement. Or to once have had and then to have it all taken away... I guess it sucks either way.
> Apparently if the Iraq war lasts five more years it will cost America nearly 1.4 Trillion dollars. (I just googled that out of curosity)
>America is fortunate that it can afford to repair such a disaster, I think it can, if it can spend all that money in Iraq.Well... Not sure that follows. Maybe it doesn't have that money BECAUSE it spent all that money in Iraq... 1.4 trillion dollars... How many african communities could be assisted to become self-sufficient on that amount do you think? Or maybe it could have been spent on welfare. Maybe if more people had cars more people would have been able to evacuate. Maybe... Maybe... Its a hard one. But while I can understand people haggling over where to spend aid money I really don't understand people choosing war over aid. What a tragic waste of lives.
If there wasn't any war... There wouldn't have to be any starving people.
A (controversial) alternative is that if we stopped farming animals for food... There wouldn't have to be any starving people (it is more economical and nutritionally efficient to grow soy or vegetables to eat than to grow soy or vegetables to feed the animals to kill the animals to eat...)
> In the mean time of course people will donate from around the world to the people affected by this hurricane.Yes. And not to the africans. But yeah. There is only so much to go around. and given war and all we must choose...
Posted by gromit on September 6, 2005, at 21:48:28
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 2, 2005, at 16:16:26
> imo it should be accepted as a humanitarian gesture.
>
> and NOT seen as something that was owed america or that america was entitled to.Just as with other disasters nobody is "entitled". Were the tsunami victims "entitled" to receive aid? Why are American citizens less worthy of foreign aid?
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by gromit on September 6, 2005, at 21:48:28
> Why are American citizens less worthy of foreign aid?
because they are so much more worthy of american aid. because america is the richest country in the world and if anybody has a responsibility to american citizens suffering from natural disaster the american government does.
when a country is not in a position to be able to help its citizens... well... then that is a different matter.
Posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:38:13
In reply to So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
lets say i have one million dollars...
i squander that money on gambelling...
then something happens
i need an operation
one that costs one million dollarsthere is me
and there is another person
that other person never came close to seeing one million dollarsthere is one million dollars worth of aid
only one person can be savedis one more deserving than another?
why / why not?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:44:32
In reply to So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by crazy teresa on September 7, 2005, at 12:31:39
actually...
forget it.
i don't think i want to talk about politics with you.
i still feel fairly insulted by what you said before...besides which. we were talking about worthiness of FOREIGN aid. that bit was crucial.
of course americans have an obligation to help american citizens in need.
more so... the government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens.
but no, the priority was clearly troops in iraq.
yeah, lets spend our money on war
and as for the poor needing aid...
well who needs eugenics when we have natural disaster???
Posted by gromit on September 7, 2005, at 19:33:33
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 22:51:38
> because they are so much more worthy of american aid. because america is the richest country in the world and if anybody has a responsibility to american citizens suffering from natural disaster the american government does.
I guess we are the "richest" country in the world, we also spend far more on foreign aid than anybody else. The next 3 countries combined still spend less on aid than us. So now you're going to mention a small percentage of gross income right? The next place country, I believe Japan, gives just a few hundreds of a percent more than us. Where are all the people bashing Japan? They aren't being bashed because they don't deserve to be bashed either. BTW, according to the figures I've seen New Zealand is also just a few hundreds of a percent ahead of the US. This is from memory but I think it's fairly accurate, if you doubt it I will try to find the sites again.
I don't expect people to come rushing to our aid, I'm just surprised at the strong negative attitude towards Americans. I guarantee if New Zealand had a disaster like this the US along with other countries would be there for them.
To quote another post, "we are looking at an area the size of Great Britain that has been devastated". If you want to complain about this administration's foreign policy I'll be right there beside you (and domestic policy is no better) but your posts along with some others on this subject almost make me feel guilty to be an American.
Rick
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by gromit on September 7, 2005, at 19:33:33
> I guess we are the "richest" country in the world, we also spend far more on foreign aid than anybody else. The next 3 countries combined still spend less on aid than us. So now you're going to mention a small percentage of gross income right? The next place country, I believe Japan, gives just a few hundreds of a percent more than us. Where are all the people bashing Japan? They aren't being bashed because they don't deserve to be bashed either. BTW, according to the figures I've seen New Zealand is also just a few hundreds of a percent ahead of the US. This is from memory but I think it's fairly accurate, if you doubt it I will try to find the sites again.
don't worry about the stats, they just confuse me ;-)
i don't know that a country (any country) has a moral obligation to provide foreign aid... have been chatting to my officemate about this (i'm no ethicist - but he is).
i do think, however, that a country (any country) has a moral obligation to provide aid for its own citizens.i take back what i said about having more of an obliation to help africans than americans. there are rich people in africa too. corrupt government is the problem...
> I don't expect people to come rushing to our aid,but countries are. as a humanitarian gesture. and i think that is terrific. really. all i'm saying is that they are not morally OBLIGED to come to americas aid, which is to say they should not be morally condemned for doing the wrong thing should they not have come to america's aid.
i think nz owes the usa a fair bit of money...
would be nice if the dollar value of our gift of aid was subtracted from that amount...
but there it is...>I'm just surprised at the strong negative attitude towards Americans. I guarantee if New Zealand had a disaster like this the US along with other countries would be there for them.
i can only speak for myself...
i do not have a strong negative atitude towards americans (some of my best babble friends are american ;-) ). i do, however, have a strong negative attitude towards the current us government. and how they go about running the country.
yes. countries DO come to the aid of other countries. and that is nice.
all i was saying is that no country is MORALLY ENTITLED to foreign aid.
>If you want to complain about this administration's foreign policy I'll be right there beside you (and domestic policy is no better) but your posts along with some others on this subject almost make me feel guilty to be an American.
I'm sorry you feel guilty to be an american. i never intended for you to feel that way in response. i was just trying to do some grumbling over the current govt.though its not called 'government' is it???
:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:05:05
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » gromit, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 19:54:28
ah and this does get confusing...
moral entitlement and obligation etc etc...
strictly at the level of government / the people running the country...
i guess i just take issue with their choosing to spend an awful lot of money on invading another country...
and the result being that they have to accept aid from foreign countries to fulfill their moral obligations to their own citizens.
but i think they see that...
which is why they were initially reluctant to accept foreign aid.
because it does make them look bad.
and a point that someone else said earlier over on social...terrorists attack in america (9/11)
so what does the american govt. decide to do in response???
send most of the troops overseas to go invade another country...
leaving america wide open to attacknot so smart...
not so smart.war is such a horrible waste of money.
nick found some source that if the war continues for 4 years it will have cost america
(and thats your tax money)
1.4 trillion dollars.
at one point when there was a lot of bombing going on...
office mate tells me it cost america
(and thats your tax money)
1 million dollars per day.and there are people in america living in tenements
living on the streets
walking through metal detectors on their way into schoolimagine what 1.4 trillion dollars...
1 million dollars per day could do for the quality of life of american citizens.but of course i'm preaching to the converted ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:09:21
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:05:05
and i guess trouble comes...
trouble comes too...
when you know people who have gone over to fight in the war
when you know people who have died in that war
to consider the war a massive mistake
a blunder
seems disrespectful to those who gave their lives to the causewhat does somebody have to say to someone to convince them to give up their life for a cause?
it is sad
it is such a horrible horrible waste of lives
on both sides
more americans have died in iraq than died in vietnam:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:10:35
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:09:21
it reminds me of leamings...
leamings commit mass suicide by racing off the edge of a cliff
why?
why on earth?nobody could figure it out...
turns out leaming suicide was a hoax
war, on the other hand, is a fact
Posted by Phil on September 7, 2005, at 20:41:38
In reply to Re: will anyone help?, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 20:09:21
more americans have died in iraq than died in vietnam
_______________You might want to check your facts on that statement.
Posted by lynn970 on September 7, 2005, at 20:47:22
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by Phil on September 7, 2005, at 20:41:38
Phil, is it you who was telling me that New Orleans' officials was not letting in the Red Cross?
I heard them talking about that on the news. I thought, "Yep, Phil told me that."
The person who was speaking was also voicing how he distrusted the Homeland Security.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 21:33:48
In reply to Re: will anyone help? » alexandra_k, posted by Phil on September 7, 2005, at 20:41:38
> more americans have died in iraq than died in vietnam
> _______________
>
> You might want to check your facts on that statement.My mistake...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1114-01.htm
Posted by crazy teresa on September 8, 2005, at 6:47:25
In reply to Re: So IYO, $$$ or lack of = worthiness or not????? » crazy teresa, posted by alexandra_k on September 7, 2005, at 15:44:32
> actually...
> forget it.
> i don't think i want to talk about politics with you.Because we don't agree?
> i still feel fairly insulted by what you said before...
>I'm sorry you feel that way. It looks as if you're freely expressing your own opinions, am I not entitled to have another?
> besides which. we were talking about worthiness of FOREIGN aid. that bit was crucial.
>No one was disputing that. NO ONE said ANYBODY was obligated to doing ANYTHING for the US.
> of course americans have an obligation to help american citizens in need.
>
> more so... the government has a moral obligation to look after the welfare of its citizens.
>
> but no, the priority was clearly troops in iraq.
>According to you.
> yeah, lets spend our money on war
> and as for the poor needing aid...
> well who needs eugenics when we have natural disaster???Saddam pled guilty to how many murders? I suppose we should ignore this fact. Along with the soldiers who are writing home telling of how people are begging them not to leave.
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