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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 22:04:43
This is going to sound silly, but I really need to know.
If your pupils are smaller than normal, why? If your pupils are larger than normal, why?
So I went to the opthamologist the other day and had my eyes dialated as usual. I noticed I looked more attractive that way. I remember a few years ago, my pupils were always larger than they are now; now they are smaller than those days. I wonder if neurotransmitter deficinecies cause pupil changes?
I remember when my ex looked at me - his pupils became HUGE, like my eyes were when they were dialated with drugs/drops, like he was high on an opiate. Since he was sexually addicted, I think I was like a drug to him.
I also know that models in magazines have their eyes altered/dialated for makeup pictures or pictures in general. A long time ago just out of curiousity, I looked up subliminal advertising tricks.
So-I'm wondering if one's pupil size can leaad to revelations about neurotransmitter issues? Do endorphines affect pupil size? If mine are smaller than they used to be, could that indicate a deficiency?
Posted by desolationrower on February 24, 2009, at 23:46:56
In reply to neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by Garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 22:04:43
haha, sexier than opioids huh
well, only thing i can thing of is that its tied to arousal level, norepinepherine specifically.
um...locus correleus is particularly suceptible to age-related degeneration, don't know if that is related to eyes though, although it is an important grouping of norep. neurones...
i don't like to think in terms of 'deficiency' all the time, it can hide best solution. so if you're getting sunburned, its a 'melanin deficiency', but the solution is sunscreen...
interesting observation...have you ever been on a TCA, mirtazapine, betablocker, amphetamines, etc? how do you respond?
-d/r
Posted by SLS on February 25, 2009, at 8:10:11
In reply to neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by Garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 22:04:43
Great questions.
> This is going to sound silly, but I really need to know.
>
> If your pupils are smaller than normal1. Maybe chronic "fight or flight" state. Overactive sympathetic nervous system and/or underactive parasympathetic nervious system.
> If your pupils are larger than normal
2. Maybe chronic "eat and have sex" state. Overactive parasympathetic nervous system and/or underactive sympathetic nervious system.
In many cases of depression, I believe that there is a depressive state I call "dysautonomia" (not to be confused with the dysautonomia disease), which skews things in the direction of too much sympathetic and too little parasympathetic tone. Another pet theory of mine. I don't know if you will find too much support for this idea as stated other than looking at the somatic symptoms of depression. In such a state of autonomic imbalance, I would expect to see small pupils, dry mouth, cold hands and feet, goose-bumps, dizziness, teeth clenching, increased heart rate, heart palpitations, constipation, anxiety, sweating, and other stuff that are part of the fight or flight response.
- Scott
Posted by desolationrower on February 25, 2009, at 16:44:19
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » Garnet71, posted by SLS on February 25, 2009, at 8:10:11
scott you've read this study?
"Organization of the stress system and its dysregulation in melancholic and atypical depression: high vs low CRH/NE states"
http://neurotransmitter.net/Gold.pdf-d/r
Posted by Sigismund on February 25, 2009, at 16:51:56
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by desolationrower on February 24, 2009, at 23:46:56
Burroughs had a phrase for eyes on opioids which seems right to me: 'the canceled eyes of junk'.
Posted by garnet71 on February 26, 2009, at 1:00:32
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by desolationrower on February 24, 2009, at 23:46:56
> um...locus correleus is particularly suceptible to age-related degeneration, don't know if that is related to eyes though, although it is an important grouping of norep. neurones...
>
> interesting observation...have you ever been on a TCA, mirtazapine, betablocker, amphetamines, etc? how do you respond?
>
> -d/r
--------------Hi d/r!
I have no idea what locus correleus is. I just don't have the motivation to learn the technicalities of brain chemistry, so I ask the experts here :))
As to what I've "been on"--with initial PTSD/severe depression (about 8-9 years ago): Effexor and Wellbutrin worked best; I couldn't tolerate the SSRIs. After that, for the past 7 years or so, I had severe anxiety/panic attacks, and all xxRIs prescribed to me caused depression or other bad side effects, but for some reason alleviated the anxiety. So I'd go on, then off, then on, then off. A cycle of insanity. I couldn't decide what was worse-being in a state of anxiety or falling ill to the side effects of xxRIs. Occaisonal use of benzos; nothing regular and no strong dosage. Benzos, however, always worked best with the least side effects.
I just started Buspar (15 mg x 2), and realized I'm not comfortable with that drug, and the anxiety already dissapated before it was prescribed (in thinking I need something long term for high-stresses/to prevent anxiety or panic attacks in future). I also just started taking .25 Xanax x 1 at night, but don't need it every night. The newest drug to my regimen is recently prescribed Ritalin (20 mg x 2) which has helped more than any of the xxRIs. It gives me an effect similar to Xanax, but as I said before, I had no anxiety when starting this regimen.
I think there are dopamine or endorphine or whatever issues in my family, all extended family with issues are paternal; grandmother with schitozophrenia; ADHD son, autistic nephew; dyslexic cousin; my sis is bp and my father and brother were not 'right', although I have no idea what their diagnoses would be, except that my father was a lifetime, but controlled, alchoholic.
I have no clue, but appreciate your responding to me. I am unhappy with the pupil changes, as silly as that sounds. Just have a lot of self-awareness, both bodily and mentally, and have a hard time not feeling 'myself'--in terms of all angles (that would include change in pupil size....lol). I also think eyes project a lot about an individual...and cant' deal with not being me--can't deal with any unnaturalness--I had a hard time deciding to get my wisdom teeth pulled; would be the worst candidate for plastic surgery or having my appendix removed or anything like that. I can't even get myself to take birth control pills, because I find it disturbing and unnatural to not have a regular cycle; I can't deal with that, and they take me away from my femininity.
This change appeared before I started taking my current med regime; probably about 2 years or so ago. I have little concept of time, so I'm not sure when it exactly happened.
Although I'm a very sexual being, I don't flatter myself in terms of the ex. I think I was a drug to him, and him perhaps to me. I never felt so high in my life until sex with him. I literally felt high, a transcended state of consciousness, when we were 'together'. I hate to admit that, but it's true. I initially thought I was totally in love with him, and him with me. I even thought-in terms of linguisitics/body language (before I thought about brain chemistry or addiction), that because his pupils became so large when he looked at me, that it meant he really must love me. Even today, I have his pheremone scent imprinted on my brain. Now, I wonder if my brain chemistry is really messed up.
Posted by garnet71 on February 26, 2009, at 1:07:29
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » Garnet71, posted by SLS on February 25, 2009, at 8:10:11
"1. Maybe chronic "fight or flight" state. Overactive sympathetic nervous system and/or underactive parasympathetic nervious system.
> If your pupils are larger than normal
2. Maybe chronic "eat and have sex" state. Overactive parasympathetic nervous system and/or underactive sympathetic nervious system.
In many cases of depression..."
----------------------
Scott, I have no idea what eat and hve sex state is..but for the fight or flight, if I'm not currently having symptoms of anxiety, why would that affect my pupil size now (it's been changed for about 2 years or so)? I do not think I have depression at all, though I admit I don't understand it that well, perhaps. Thanks.
Posted by SLS on February 26, 2009, at 8:00:15
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by desolationrower on February 25, 2009, at 16:44:19
> scott you've read this study?
>
> "Organization of the stress system and its dysregulation in melancholic and atypical depression: high vs low CRH/NE states"
> http://neurotransmitter.net/Gold.pdf
>
> -d/r
Hi D/RNo I have never seen this literature, but thank you for posting it. I just read the abstract and am now interested to see if what they observe in unipolar atypical depression is different from what I observe in myself as a bipolar depressive.
As I am sure you have done, I have at times acted as a passive and objective observer of my illness and its features. I concluded that an overactive sympathetic system was a possible explanations for the things I was experiencing. That was in 1982. It wasn't until 1990 that I actually began to discuss my observations with a doctor, and he used the term "dysautonomia" to describe what I had noted in myself. Since then, this model of autonomic dysfunction has explained very well much of what has been discovered subsequent to those conversations.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 26, 2009, at 8:07:00
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » SLS, posted by garnet71 on February 26, 2009, at 1:07:29
Hi Garnet.
This is a passage from the article D/R found. As short as it is, it explains a great deal.
"Stress precipitates depression and alters its natural history. Major depression and the stress
response share similar phenomena, mediators and circuitries. Thus, many of the features of
major depression potentially reflect dysregulations of the stress response. The stress
response itself consists of alterations in levels of anxiety, a loss of cognitive and affective
flexibility, activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis and autonomic nervous
system, and inhibition of vegetative processes that are likely to impede survival during a
life-threatening situation (eg sleep, sexual activity, and endocrine programs for growth and
reproduction)."Perhaps you can be more specific about what you would like to know about the autonomic nervous system and how it relates to whatever condition you are concerned with.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on February 26, 2009, at 12:24:06
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » garnet71, posted by SLS on February 26, 2009, at 8:07:00
"Stress precipitates depression and alters its natural history."
Does this mean environmental and physical stressors?
I don't know Scott. I am intuitively guessing that my brain receptors somehow got fried either from too much stress or psych meds, or a combination of both.
Posted by SLS on February 27, 2009, at 8:07:20
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » SLS, posted by garnet71 on February 26, 2009, at 12:24:06
> "Stress precipitates depression and alters its natural history."
>
> Does this mean environmental and physical stressors?Yes. It also includes psychosocial stresses. So, it is not really so much the source of the stress, but the result, since both external and internal stresses trigger the same responses by the body.
> I don't know Scott. I am intuitively guessing that my brain receptors somehow got fried either from too much stress or psych meds, or a combination of both.
Probably both. One way to optimize your chances of regaining health is to remove as much stress you can from your environment and from within your psyche. Of course, some amount of good stress - eustress - serves a useful purpose when it comes to become activated enough to function outside your comfort zone. Homework due by tomorrow morning, for example. Even here, it becomes a matter of degree.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on February 27, 2009, at 23:01:06
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by SLS on February 27, 2009, at 8:07:20
I've decided to give up trying to figure out whether or not I have a seratonin, endorphine, dopamine, or a deficiency or abundance of anything else. I have no mental energy to learn about neuroscience right now. I give up.
Thanks for the advice.
Posted by Garnet71 on February 28, 2009, at 0:46:36
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by SLS on February 27, 2009, at 8:07:20
...but I did find a nice little chart I wanted to share with you:
http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/2/3/368/T1
Thought you might want a copy for yourself. It's a nice little summary.
Posted by SLS on February 28, 2009, at 8:01:13
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » SLS, posted by garnet71 on February 27, 2009, at 23:01:06
Garnet.
I have watched you learn and understand stuff at a remarkable rate. There are copious amounts of data and information of broad scope and penetrating depth. It may not be reasonable to expect yourself to understand everything when it is first presented to you. I don't expect so much from myself, so I concentrate on the things that will most benefit me. If I have any extra mental energy, then I will take my insatiable curiosity for a walk around the block.
Thanks for the link.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on February 28, 2009, at 11:35:52
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » garnet71, posted by SLS on February 28, 2009, at 8:01:13
Well thank you for the encouragement! It helps for me to see the aggregate information all in one place-like that chart-before digging further into the more focused information. i think that's where I've been struggling-seeing bits and pieces w/o being able to see them in context.
I can tell you though-if not for this board, which I found in January or late december, I might still have been feeling horrible or worse off. I could have kept on the wrong meds with the lousy doctor, continued with the other one visit doctor who did not take the time to learn about all of my issues, or not sought out former PDoc who agreed with me on current regiment (which I concluded from information from this forum)...I will never know. What I do know is that it never even crossed my mind to take ADD meds before I came here. I did not know people with anxiety could take those meds, and never had checked into it.
I am very grateful for all the advice and information I learned from this forum!
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 21, 2009, at 13:47:23
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » garnet71, posted by SLS on February 26, 2009, at 8:07:00
This was an exciting discussion to read. I am glad to have been able to witness it. What interesting, kind, and smart people are here.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 14, 2009, at 16:03:34
In reply to neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by Garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 22:04:43
Mydriasis (dilation of the pupil) is controlled
by the radial muscle in the iris via sympathetic innervation. The parasympathetic nervous system innervates the circular muscle, which constricts the iris. Dilation is directly mediated via a1-adrenergic receptors. During sexual arousal,
mydriasis is induced by oxytocin release.Opioids induce miosis, not mydriasis. And, for
what it's worth, IMHO it makes more sense to
conceptualize the effects of certain drugs as being similar to love rather than the other way around. See _Love and Addiction_ by Stanton Peele. Lou Reed wrote in the song "Heroin":
"It's my wife and it's my life".There is no such thing as a "neurotransmitter deficiency" in this context; neural activity is far more complex than topping off a gas tank.
Posted by garnet71 on May 14, 2009, at 17:29:26
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » Garnet71, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 14, 2009, at 16:03:34
Wow-I never would have expected someone to know the answer to my question! thanks! Will you solve the rest of my problems too??? : )
So if my eyes are not dialated as fully as they used to be, could that mean I'm lonely-lacking love..or sexual pleasure? lol
p.s. I realized i got the opiod dialation mixed up, but at least I now know it's called (miosis)
Posted by Meltingpot on May 17, 2009, at 10:20:53
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation » Garnet71, posted by SLS on February 25, 2009, at 8:10:11
Scott,
All the symptoms you describe as being symptoms of "dysautonomia" are the very same symptoms I experienced (when all this started) back in 2001. The cold hands and feet were the first thing that started to bother me. However, having said that I guess you could say the very same symptoms are also symptoms of anxiety.
If you have symptoms of "dysautonomia" then what should you do for treatment? Just trial and error with antidepressants again?
Denise
Posted by SLS on May 18, 2009, at 7:09:30
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation - To Scott, posted by Meltingpot on May 17, 2009, at 10:20:53
> Scott,
>
> All the symptoms you describe as being symptoms of "dysautonomia" are the very same symptoms I experienced (when all this started) back in 2001. The cold hands and feet were the first thing that started to bother me. However, having said that I guess you could say the very same symptoms are also symptoms of anxiety.
>
> If you have symptoms of "dysautonomia" then what should you do for treatment? Just trial and error with antidepressants again?The dysautonomia is just as much a part of depression as is depressed mood, anxiety, psychomotor retardation, amotivation, cognitive impairment, anergia, decreased libido, etc. Like these other symptoms, dysautonomia resolves upon remission from depression. So, yes, a robust response to treatment will allow for a more normal balance between the two parts of the autonomic nervous system: sympathetic and parasympathetic.
- Scott
Posted by Meltingpot on May 21, 2009, at 11:17:52
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation - To Scott » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on May 18, 2009, at 7:09:30
.
Posted by Neal on May 23, 2009, at 3:01:31
In reply to neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by Garnet71 on February 24, 2009, at 22:04:43
Stylish ladies of the 18 and 19 centuries would put a tincture of belladonna in their eyes to dilate their pupils before balls and parties, etc.
Posted by garnet71 on May 31, 2009, at 23:39:17
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by Neal on May 23, 2009, at 3:01:31
Neal, that was a very interesting snippet of history. I never heard that before! Got any more stories like that about cultural trends of the past?
Posted by SLS on June 1, 2009, at 5:45:33
In reply to Re: neurotransmitters and eye dialation, posted by Neal on May 23, 2009, at 3:01:31
> Stylish ladies of the 18 and 19 centuries would put a tincture of belladonna in their eyes to dilate their pupils before balls and parties, etc.
Actually, I think it goes back to ancient Egypt.
- Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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