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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by homewood on July 11, 2002, at 6:08:25
ok trivia fans...here's a thought that's been rambling around in my antidepressant-bathed, sleep deprived brain:
many of us are familiar with the Old Testament teaching of how God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden because of their one transgression. my ponderance, from the perspective of a parent, is what kind of all-loving, all-forgiving Father condemns his children for eternity for one mistake?
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2002, at 8:46:31
In reply to Theology question du jour, posted by homewood on July 11, 2002, at 6:08:25
I guess it depends on your interpretation of the story. Were Adam and Eve cursed or blessed by being thrown out of Eden? (Of course, I don't interpret the bible story literally but metaphorically.)
They ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The name of that tree is very symbolic to me. In eating that fruit they became able to make moral judgements and live lifes based on free choice of whether do do right or wrong. To become heartbreakingly and gloriously adult human. To have to work for a living (and know the joy of challenge and satisfaction). To have pain in childbirth (and know the great miracle and joy of giving birth). To suffer (and learn compassion) and to eventually die (well who wants to live forever in paradise - sounds horrendously dull).
In eating of the fruit they made a choice to become to a degree independent of God. And God like a good parent gave them that freedom (along with a good dose of the reality of what that meant).
The interesting part of symbolic stories is that they leave a lot of room for interpretation. And that particular interpretation is a variant of one offered by Harold Kushner on his book about guilt (I can't remember the name - sorry).
I find Kushner gives me so much to think about. His book "To Life!" is the major shaper of my theology.
Posted by fachad on July 11, 2002, at 9:15:53
In reply to Theology question du jour, posted by homewood on July 11, 2002, at 6:08:25
I'll answer that one with the answer I believe a Christian theologian would provide.
If anyone does not think that this answer is a correct summary of Christian dogma, I will be happy to furnish Biblical references to support each assertion.
(Please see my standard disclaimer of agnosticism at the end of this post.)
Here goes:
First you must realize that your "perspective as a parent" is hopelessly flawed by your sinful nature. Your thoughts and reasoning’s are not like God's.
The real key to understanding this question is to realize that God is HOLY. His Holiness is beyond any human comprehension. He, by his deepest nature CANNOT tolerate sin.
Our best attempts to be "good" or "moral" are not in the least pleasing to him, because of the vast gulf between his Holiness and our sinfulness.
He is, by his Holy Nature, unable to tolerate even one sinful act, such as that committed by Adam and Eve.
He has expressed his love for us by providing a way out of this hopeless dilemma.
He MUST punish sin, or else his Holy nature would be compromised. So His solution was to manifest Himself as His only begotten Son, in the historical person of Jesus Christ, and then punishing him for all our sins.
That way, His requirements for justice and holiness are met, and he does not have to damn the entire human race to eternal punishment.
The only catch is that we have freewill. The same freewill that allowed Adam and Eve to choose to disobey God in the first place will let us choose not to accept God's free gift of salvation.
So the choice is up to you: accept God's gift of salvation by faith in Jesus or burn in Hell forever with no one to blame but yourself.
************************************************
fachad's standard Babble Faith Disclaimer:My familiarity with religious ideas should not be mistaken for religious belief. I am an agnostic.
I not a Christian, I do not believe the Bible is the Word of God, nor do I believe in ANY revealed religion (i.e., religion that was revealed by God to some person or through some purported holy book.)
I am especially disdainful of religions that take mythological material, which is beautiful and meaningful in that it tells us about our collective unconscious, and claims that it is historical rather than mythical in nature.
*************************************************> ok trivia fans...here's a thought that's been rambling around in my antidepressant-bathed, sleep deprived brain:
>
> many of us are familiar with the Old Testament teaching of how God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden because of their one transgression. my ponderance, from the perspective of a parent, is what kind of all-loving, all-forgiving Father condemns his children for eternity for one mistake?
Posted by krazy kat on July 11, 2002, at 16:52:23
In reply to Re: Theology question du jour, posted by fachad on July 11, 2002, at 9:15:53
if you have any desire to discuss this further. we sound very similar on this subject. your knowledge of "christian theology" is fantastic, and most don't even know what that term means.
I am one of the dissenters leaving the board but I keep checking in (stop that Krazy Kat) and am happy to also give you a link to the new group forming that IsoM mentioned. It's certainly not a secret at all, I am just waiting for consent to post it here.
Anyway, use perrofeliz at ivillage dot com.
- KK
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 17:58:33
In reply to Theology question du jour, posted by homewood on July 11, 2002, at 6:08:25
Hommewood,
When Adam and Eve, the first people in the Garden of Edan,were directed by God to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, God told them that if they did eat of the fruit that they would die. You see, man was created to live eternally. Death came into the world as a result of their disobediance to God's command , for they did eat of the fruit.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 18:15:05
In reply to Lou responds to homewoods question » homewood, posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 17:58:33
homewood,
When I was in the City of peace, I saw the Tree of Life in the middle of its street. It bore fruits and the leaves were for therapeutic purposes.
When the Anointed One said, "....you shall be with me in Paradise," I thought that that could mean that The City of Peace is Paradise, for the Tree of Life is there. And I also thought that the tree that Adam and Eve ate the fruit of was the same tree and that the Garden of Edan was like the City of Peace.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 18:28:52
In reply to Lou responds to homewoods question » homewood, posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 17:58:33
homewood,
When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit , which meant that they disobeyed God, their relationship with God changed. They were banished from the Garden. They were now going to have a life of drudgery. They had no access to the tree of life ,which I believe was in the garden with the other trees, for they now did not have a proper relationship with God and were banished from all the trees.
Now while I was on the Road to the Crown of Life, I found that a proper relationship with God would restore us to Paradise.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 18:48:12
In reply to Theology question du jour, posted by homewood on July 11, 2002, at 6:08:25
homewood,
When Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Edan, you say that their "one mistake" resulted in God condemming his children for one mistake.
Now I am hoping for you to clarify what you mean by that, for there could be seveal meanings by someone when you just read that sentence. If you can clarify which meaning it is that you mean, then I could uderstand your question so that I can answer it. Do you mean that Adam and Eve had no hope from that point, or do you mean that all of humanity has no hope because of their transgression, or do you mean something else?
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by homewood on July 12, 2002, at 7:19:53
In reply to Lou responds to homewoods question » homewood, posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 17:58:33
I fully comprehend the theology. my point is why would a loving father damn his children for one mistake? kinda heavy handed don't you think? and the 'man doesn't think as God thinks' answer doesn't cut it for me...
Posted by homewood on July 12, 2002, at 8:16:21
In reply to Lou's response to homewoods queation part-4, posted by Lou Pilder on July 11, 2002, at 18:48:12
My question is far less esoteric than that. If you or I, as a father, were to tell our children not to do something, and they went and did it anyway (because that's what children do), would it not be considered harsh to banish them from their home for that one transgression?
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2002, at 10:16:09
In reply to Re: Lou responds to homewoods questionLou, posted by homewood on July 12, 2002, at 7:19:53
My point is that being expelled from the garden of Eden was hardly damnation. It was the beginning of human experience as we know it, with both rewards and joys and suffering. It was man's choice to be human, and perhaps that's what the story was really about.
Here is a brief excerpt from Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary:
"Moreover, we note that neither here not anwywhere else in the Hebrew Bible is their act characterized as a sin, let alone the Original Sin. There is no indication that this represents a permanent rupture of the divine-human relationship. God expels Adam and Eve from Eden, which can be seen as a punishment. But it can also be seen as a painful but necessary "graduation" from the innocence of childhood to the problem-laden world of living as morally responsible adults."
This is the end of the thread.
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