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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 15:07:04
I havent posted here in a number of years but I think this is worth passing along. I started taking a new bioavailable form of the spice/supplement curcumin (Longvida brand) 4 months ago (1). It seems to have taken away completely my post exercise malaise. Since I have been an adult Ive always gotten brain fog and low and fragile mood about 24 to 72 hours after exercise. Nothing has seemed to really work for it until now, and Ive tried sooo many things over the decades(2). When I went off of the curcumin briefly, the post exercise malaise returned. My girlfriend also started this curcumin at the same time and it seems to have helped her a lot too. She used too get moody (crying, etc.) when a part of her body became inflamed through overuse or injury, and that seems to have passed.
Im wondering if this curcumin might be of help to a number of mental conditions. Curcumin has been researched a lot, in over a hundred medical and scientific journal articles in the last year alone. It has been well established that it is an anti-inflammatory, or more specifically, an inhibitor of a mediator of inflammation called NF-kappaB. It is also increasingly believed that inflammation, and specifically NF-kappaB is involved in the genesis of a variety of mental conditions including stress induced depression and schizophrenia(3,4). The problem with curcumin in its natural form is that an insignificant amount gets past the gut, let alone the blood-brain barrier. It seems this new formulation gets relevant amounts into both the blood and the brain(5,6). This was accomplished by creating curcumin microparticles and then coating them with a combination of 2 lipids; stearic acid and lecithin (possibly including phosphatidylcholine). Anyway, this product was developed by a group of neuroscientists at UCLA for Alzheimers patients. More information is available at the Longvida site.
It seems to me that the anti-inflammatory effects take up to a week to take full effect. I take four 500mg. capsules before bed, my girlfriend takes 3. Curcumin has other speculated anti-depressive actions that I guess would take longer to take effect, these include the modulation of the neurotransmitters serotonin and dopamine, and increasing neurogenesis via neurotrophic factors such as brain derived neurotrophic factor(7).A few important notes:
- I dont have any financial connection with Longvida curcumin other than as a paying customer, and this is not an endorsement of this product, or a recommendation to take curcumin.
- This curcumin may work synergistically with a COX-2 inhibitor such as Celebrex in some conditions.
- Possible known side effects include: diarrhea at higher does, elevated cholesterol, and issues with blood thinning.
- Curcumin has a broad array of actions. Ive just focused on it as a NF-kappaB inhibitor in this post.
- Lastly and most importantly. Curcumin at these levels has been evaluated VERY little in human trials. In my uneducated opinion, this product should be treated as a new drug, potential powerful but also potentially dangerous. For example, while excess NF-kappaB inhibition has been implicated in many disorders, it also is a necessary and useful body process. The immune system is meant to work on the local level, the microenvironment. Overriding the immune system by taking agents that act on the whole body cant be expected to be without at lest some negative consequence.Footnotes:
(1) Curcumin is the lipid-soluble antioxidant compound obtained from the rhizome of Curcuma Longa Linn, also known as turmeric.
(2) As I recall, L-glutamine did help some though.
(3) Nuclear factor-kappaB is a critical mediator of stress-impaired neurogenesis and depressive behavior, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 February 9.
(4) The interaction of nuclear factor-kappa B and cytokines is associated with schizophrenia, Biol Psychiatry. 2009 Mar 15.
(5) Curcumin Structure-Function, Bioavailability, and Efficacy in Models of Neuroinflammation and Alzheimers Disease, J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2008 July.
(6) Safety and pharmacokinetics of a solid lipid curcumin particle formulation in osteosarcoma patients and healthy volunteers, J Agric Food Chem. 2010 Feb 24.
(7) An Overview of Curcumin in Neurological Disorder, Indian J Pharm Sci. 2010 MarApr. Note: this article also hypothesizes that curcumin may be useful in treating tardive dyskinesia. Caveat though, Ive read a number of scientific articles out of India touting the multifold potential benefits of curcumin, and I feel the tone and content of the articles tend to be that of an advocate rather than that of scientific neutrality.
Posted by SLS on September 21, 2010, at 16:16:58
In reply to Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 15:07:04
Many remember you fondly and with respect as an icon of a different era in Psycho-Babble. I am pleasantly surprised to see your name reappear.
Welcome back!
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on September 21, 2010, at 19:52:37
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by SLS on September 21, 2010, at 16:16:58
Meriva is another great brand of curcumin.
Here is a good thread on M & M on curcumin:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=41876
Posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 22:19:55
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by SLS on September 21, 2010, at 16:16:58
Scott,
I'm glad you have continued to post here. I always found your posts to be level headed and informed. I'm sure you are a benefit to so many here.
Morgan,
I looked over the bioavailability information for the Meriva brand. For some reason I didn't find it to be compelling.
Again, I'm not advocating people take this Longvida curcumin. Sometimes I question myself for taking it. I think a real concern here is that truly bioavailable curcumin might have potential for harm. Let me quote from a recent journal article, "The diverse and cell type dependent actions of NF-kB make it a complex drug target, although there may be specific cases of inflammatory processes in which NF-kB inhibitors would be useful and efficacious for the treatment of depression." I suppose this is something to take a hard look only if you suspect you clearly have an inflammatory condition. I don't think there are other clearly identified NF-kB inhibition agents out there that have good oral bioavailability.
Posted by TenMan on September 22, 2010, at 9:26:11
In reply to Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 15:07:04
Hi andrewb, good to see you.
You were on of the early pioneers of the memantine/amphetamine combo that has become pretty popular around the interwebs.
Mind if I ask if that combination is still working for you?
Take care.
Posted by andrewb on September 22, 2010, at 11:52:25
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by TenMan on September 22, 2010, at 9:26:11
TenMan,
I don't use any 'mind' medicines now and haven't for over 4 years unless you want to include curcumin. My mood is quite good now.
Just an aside, I would encourage anybody using medicines for dysthymia, as I had, to not view them as lifetime maintenance drugs, but rather as a bridge to provide the mental perspective and emotional space necessary to adapt oneself and one's environment. Most dysthymics need to know that there is plenty of peace and joy in the world for them if they just let the world slowly teach them.
Posted by TenMan on September 22, 2010, at 12:01:53
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 22, 2010, at 11:52:25
That's what I like to hear. I couldn't agree more. Best wishes on your continued good health.
Posted by morgan miller on September 22, 2010, at 12:06:09
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 22, 2010, at 11:52:25
Andrew, do you mind sharing your supplement regimen aside from curcumin if you have one? Specifically, those supplements that you believe have helped you maintain healthy mood.
Thanks,
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 22, 2010, at 12:22:11
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 22:19:55
> Scott,
> I'm glad you have continued to post here. I always found your posts to be level headed and informed. I'm sure you are a benefit to so many here.
> Morgan,
> I looked over the bioavailability information for the Meriva brand. For some reason I didn't find it to be compelling.
> Again, I'm not advocating people take this Longvida curcumin. Sometimes I question myself for taking it. I think a real concern here is that truly bioavailable curcumin might have potential for harm. Let me quote from a recent journal article, "The diverse and cell type dependent actions of NF-kB make it a complex drug target, although there may be specific cases of inflammatory processes in which NF-kB inhibitors would be useful and efficacious for the treatment of depression." I suppose this is something to take a hard look only if you suspect you clearly have an inflammatory condition. I don't think there are other clearly identified NF-kB inhibition agents out there that have good oral bioavailability.Resveratrol, Quercitin, and EGCG are other fairly potent NF Kappa B inhibitors. Maybe not as potent as Curcumin though.
Posted by morgan miller on September 22, 2010, at 12:34:04
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by morgan miller on September 22, 2010, at 12:22:11
Actually there are many nf-kb inhibitors out there. Here is a list made by Vincent G:
http://www.vincegiuliano.name/Antiagingfirewalls.htm#thirtyninesubstances
Posted by andrewb on September 22, 2010, at 18:44:38
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others) » morgan miller, posted by morgan miller on September 22, 2010, at 12:34:04
> Morgan, thanks for the link. I'll look at it when I get a chance.
I don't have a supplement regime for mood anymore. I've taken fish oil and a multivitamin for years though. I'm also pretty careful about what I ingest (burp).
Posted by bulldog2 on September 27, 2010, at 16:16:59
In reply to Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 15:07:04
The last I remembered you were on memantine and adderrall.
So outside of cucurmine, no drugs, special diets or special supplements? How did you do it? Was there a certain revelation that hit you and changed your life?
Posted by Luds on August 1, 2011, at 1:15:12
In reply to Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 21, 2010, at 15:07:04
Not sure if you're still around andrewb, but which brand of Longvida did you choose? There are three on the Londvida website that differ significantly in cost.
I recently started taking Life Extension's Super BIO-Curcumin BCM-95, which is supposed to be absorbed more effectively. I believe the Longvida is superior to this, but the cost is greater too. Any thoughts from anyone would be welcomed.
Posted by andrewb on August 12, 2011, at 10:51:29
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by Luds on August 1, 2011, at 1:15:12
> Not sure if you're still around andrewb, but which brand of Longvida did you choose? There are three on the Londvida website that differ significantly in cost.
>
> I recently started taking Life Extension's Super BIO-Curcumin BCM-95, which is supposed to be absorbed more effectively. I believe the Longvida is superior to this, but the cost is greater too. Any thoughts from anyone would be welcomed.The three different retailers offer the same product, only the branding is different.
http://alzheimer.neurology.ucla.edu/Curcumin.html
This website is from the UCLA group that oversaw the development of the product. In short, if you were looking for a lower cost alternative that is effective in getting across the BBB the keywords may be 'micronized', 'lipid encapsulated', and possibly 'phophatdylserine' (sp?). Good luck.
Posted by John58 on August 25, 2011, at 13:38:22
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by andrewb on September 22, 2010, at 11:52:25
AndrewB- I've wondered what became of you. Glad to hear things are going well. Over the past 30 years, I've often sought a medicinal "cure" for lifelong dysthymia. Not much success though. Thanks for sharing your insight on this subject (reproduced below). I value it greatly. Peace and joy!
______________________________________
>
"> Just an aside, I would encourage anybody using medicines for dysthymia, as I had, to not view them as lifetime maintenance drugs, but rather as a bridge to provide the mental perspective and emotional space necessary to adapt oneself and one's environment. Most dysthymics need to know that there is plenty of peace and joy in the world for them if they just let the world slowly teach them."
Posted by andrewb on August 31, 2011, at 11:18:07
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by John58 on August 25, 2011, at 13:38:22
John,
Thanks for your kind words. It is good to hear from you. I remember you fondly, (waxing poetic) like waves from a distance; peace and joy, peace and joy, peace and joy...> AndrewB- I've wondered what became of you. Glad to hear things are going well. Over the past 30 years, I've often sought a medicinal "cure" for lifelong dysthymia. Not much success though. Thanks for sharing your insight on this subject (reproduced below). I value it greatly. Peace and joy!
>
Posted by sigismund on September 5, 2011, at 17:37:04
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by John58 on August 25, 2011, at 13:38:22
>"> Just an aside, I would encourage anybody using medicines for dysthymia, as I had, to not view them as lifetime maintenance drugs, but rather as a bridge to provide the mental perspective and emotional space necessary to adapt oneself and one's environment. Most dysthymics need to know that there is plenty of peace and joy in the world for them if they just let the world slowly teach them."
I very much enjoyed that too. Need to calm down, I guess.
Posted by andrewb on February 7, 2013, at 6:33:23
In reply to Re: Curcumin, Inflamm, and Mood (Hi Scott + others), posted by sigismund on September 5, 2011, at 17:37:04
Starting in October I switched brands of bioavailable curcumin to Theracurmin, which like Longvida' has been recently licensed to and sold by several supplement producers. I believe it may have better bioavailability or bioactivity.
Posted by TenMan on February 24, 2013, at 18:12:51
In reply to Curcumin Update, posted by andrewb on February 7, 2013, at 6:33:23
Thank you for the update Andrew. Glad to hear you are still doing well.
May I ask if you have an opinion on the BCM 95 extract?
Posted by andrewb on February 27, 2013, at 10:25:33
In reply to Re: Curcumin Update, posted by TenMan on February 24, 2013, at 18:12:51
TenMan,
Depends what your reason for using curcumin is. However I believe it is fairly clear that a formulation like BCM 95 is not going to result in significant curcuminoids crossing the BBB. Here is a link that explains some of the issues: http://haerimusa.com/fucoidan03.html
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