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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lao Tzu on July 18, 2010, at 19:24:46
I am seriously considering trying the herbal tonics. The symptoms that bother me the most are apathy, fatigue, and low motivation. Are you saying that one or more of the tonics could help with these symptoms? In your honest opinion, what tonic should I be looking at? I'm not having severe symptoms other than the three mentioned above. How would I know if I would have Kidney or Liver Qi deficiency? I am confused as to how to choose the proper tonic. I am bipolar/schizophrenic. Most of my symptoms are related to those two illnesses. I do have digestive symptoms, but they seem to be somewhat under control with medication. I'm not having any bowel problems, but I am bloated in the abdomen. Now, I do take vitamins which help with energy somewhat, but the apathy still lingers and I have a very difficult time starting anything and going out to look for a job. Is Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan the best tonic IYHO to start with? I'm very new to herbal tonics. Did this particular tonic help with apathy and fatigue the best, or was there one that works better for those two symptoms? Thanks in advance for your suggestions, and I think your informative posts on Chinese Medicine are very helpful. I'm just hemming and hauling about the whole thing. I guess I'm afraid I will be only complicating my situation.
Posted by Hombre on July 18, 2010, at 21:08:51
In reply to Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Lao Tzu on July 18, 2010, at 19:24:46
Hi Lao Tzu,
Here's my current understanding of how Chinese herbs may help people in situations like ours:
a) strengthening the spleen (digestion) and eliminating dampness (bloating) helps us to absorb nutrients better. You will get more energy from the food you eat. You may not need to take as many supplements or may be able to go without once in a while.
b) antidepressants and atypical antipsychotics seems to lower the level of certain hormones or otherwise mess with the endocrine system, hence the weight gain, the lowered libido, feeling sort of apathetic and without the "juice" to put thought into action. Enter kidney tonics. Now that I am back on the kidney tonic I feel much more together. I swear they normalize (not just blindly increase) testosterone and I get the benefits of that. It's hard to put into words, but I just feel more potent. You can interpret that in many ways. Also, since the AD I take seems to mess with my ability to piss normally I get the added benefit of that being normalized as well.
So, my advice to you, which is of course that of an amateur who has experimented on himself, is to go with Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan and Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan (or You Gui Wan, I can't get that locally but it is available online). Buy a couple of bottles of each and start with one, any one, and do that for a week or two. Then you could switch to the other to see how it works alone or add it on. As long as you do not currently have chronic constipation or diarrhea you should be good to go. Actually, the Bu Zhong will help with chronic diarrhea.
Don't expect to much at first unless you are in tune with your energy from meditation or qigong practice, or just being sensitive that way by nature.
I'd ask you to post regular updates here so we can decide whether to stop or not should you feel weird. Good luck. I'm very excited for you.
Hombre
Posted by Hombre on July 19, 2010, at 22:22:19
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 18, 2010, at 21:08:51
I noticed that Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan contains the following:
Chai hu (Bupleurum chinense root) - relieves qi stagnation, alleviates chest disharmony
Chen pi (Citrus reticulata/citrus peel) - lubricates intestines, prevents stagnation
Da zao (Ziziphus jujube/Chinese date fruit) - tonifies spleen, nourishes blood, calms spirit
Sheng jiang (Zingiber officinale rhizome/ginger root) - aids circulation
Anything to move the blood and get rid of stagnation, especially liver stagnation, is good for depression. All the Spleen and blood nourishing herbs will help not only with energy, but to calm the mind and ease the more psychological type of anxiety and insomnia, where the thoughts are fluttering and they don't feel like they can settle down. This is where the Heart comes into play, but that's another chapter.
I take a similar formula as a general tonic, mostly because I think it is good for me and my girlfriend, but I might try a week of Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan again to see if it is better for depression. It rectifies the central Qi and Yang which we can think of as helping energy go up to the brain, feeling strong and upright, not heavy and weighted down (think depressive body language, slouching, curved spine).
This in itself can do a lot for depression, but I also strongly recommend the kidney tonic. Long term mental illness and the medications we take to manage them tend to really wear down on a person's confidence and will power. Even when the meds and supplements are helping with the most severe symptoms, something as subtle as willpower and resolve lie deeper in one's being, closer to where the body and mind are so tightly intertwined that they really become one. It isn't just in your head, nor is it a purely "physical" issue. It's where matter and energy freely transmute and change. It's also the place where our will to live, our sexual energy lies. I don't necessarily believe in chakras or kundalini or anything like that, but I think we can all agree that we have a basic drive, where our most basic instincts lie, and this is a great source of power. If we can nurture and make use of this energy, we can regain the daring and courage that is essential if we really want to make changes in the here and now.
Suerte,
Hombre
Posted by Hombre on July 19, 2010, at 22:37:19
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 19, 2010, at 22:22:19
These formulas are also available as Planetary Herbals Ginseng Elixir and (in slightly modified form) Rehmannia Vitalizer.
Sometimes all the Chinese language and terminology is confusing and unnecessary. Planetary Herbals is based out of California.
Posted by Hombre on July 20, 2010, at 21:22:17
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 19, 2010, at 22:37:19
Posted by Hombre on July 21, 2010, at 5:58:47
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 20, 2010, at 21:22:17
Sorry Lao, I'm latching onto your thread to keep adding information I think might be helpful to you and maybe others. It isn't necessarily aimed at anyone in particular, but I feel that it is tied in thematically with our ongoing conversation about herbal medicine. I appreciate your tolerating my posts.
Picked up "The Male Herbal" from the library today. From what I've read so far, I really like the author's message. He wants to empower people (not just men) to have some dignity and independence when it comes to taking care of themselves, and to concentrate on enhancing what is already "right" about themselves, and not falling into the mindset of "fixing" what's "wrong". Thus he sticks mostly to Western terminology and develops the idea that each of us, as individuals, can become our own personal herbalist.
Lao, you are already your own herbalist; your methodical approach to trying supplements is the same thing only you're using vitamins and minerals. Herbal formulas are no different. You don't have to worry about each individual herb just as you don't worry about the detailed biochemistry of each synthetic compound/vitamin you take (at least I don't think so). You eat them, and then you see how you feel. If it is helping your energy, continue. If after taking it long enough you find that it really does not help or even makes things worse, you drop it.
***
"As I briefly discussed in chapter 2, "Recycling Our Heritage," the effects of an herb on the human body are quite predictable. This predictability has been made possible for us by humanity's timeless history of observing the actions of each herb as it has been used internally and/or externally by myriad human beings. These well-documented actions of an herb are readily outlined in most herbal texts, but they are rarely understood my the modern-day reader and are casually regarded as peripheral information. The average reader tends to look for a "hit-medicine" that can be taken to eliminate a particular condition. We Western individuals are strongly conditioned to approach health care in this manner, but this is the manner in which allopathic science deals with disease, using a potent drug to override and counteract a body symptom. Individuals seeking alternatives to allopathic heroic chemical drugs turn to herbalism for its materia medica, but then usually continue to approach the use of these herbs in an allopathic fashion. This is not the most efficient method of for using herbs. Instead, one needs to reconsider the relationship inherent between the energy of herbs and the requirements of the human body, which is a self-healing organism. Normally, the spontaneously healing body does not need something to be done to it; rather, it readily uses allied supportive energy (herbal actions) and biochemically appropriate (easily assimilated) nutrients to supplement its inherently competent, self-healing, vital energy."
Posted by Lao Tzu on July 21, 2010, at 10:29:00
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 20, 2010, at 21:22:17
Hombre, thanks for your posts. What is the kidney tonic that you recommend? Its Chinese name, that is? In your opinion, which tonic has worked best for you regarding apathy and slowness to start anything (low motivation)? These are my two worst symptoms.
Balancing energy is a goal of mine as well, but this is pretty tricky in bipolars. With the vitamins and minerals, I can balance it somewhat, but there is still a measure of apathy and fatigue. The Risperdal may be adding to the apathy. It's a very strong medication. Also, my smoking habit doesn't help the apathy either. Smoking tends to add to my low motivation, but maybe I'm wrong about that. Again, you're a wealth of information. I enjoy reading your posts.Lao
Posted by Hombre on July 22, 2010, at 1:18:25
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Lao Tzu on July 21, 2010, at 10:29:00
Lao Tzu,
The kidney tonic is called Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. You shouldn't have to pay more than $4-5 for a bottle of 200 teapills, which will last 8 days.
After giving it some more thought, I am going to recommend trying the spleen/Qi tonic Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan first. Tonifying the digestion eliminating dampness will go a long way towards energy. As I said earlier, it also has some herbs to move liver stagnation, helping depression somewhat. It also helps the Yang Qi to rise, which can be thought of as better energy and blood circulation to the head. But every organ system will benefit when the body can squeeze more energy out of food and drink.
Depending on your current condition and the length of time things have been out of balance, it may take some time for you to feel anything. You may want to invest in at least a month's worth so you don't have to pay repeated shipping costs.
As BZYQW helps support and raise collapsed energy, Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan (kidney tonic) especially fortifies the lower body as it tonifies the kidneys.
***
As your energy increases, you may perceive it as a bit of increased anxiety. I believe this is normal, especially when taking supplements and medications, but instead of reaching for a cigarette, which I know all too well from years of smoking becomes the default, I would like to suggest sometimes doing a bit of physical movement. If you can, just head out and walk around the block or in a park. If that isn't possible, I'd like to recommend some basic qigong exercises:
http://eightcircles.blogspot.com/p/table-of-contents.html
The blog author has done a great job abstracting the core movements of Tai Chi into stand alone drills. They are explained in text and demonstrated in video. There is nothing special about these exercises, all they require is that you relax, go slow, and breathe normally. There is nothing mysterious about qigong or tai chi. Anyone who tells you different is selling something. These movements are circular and rhythmic. Just relax and let your body do what it can. It's OK to feel silly at first. If done regularly, these rhythmic movements will calm your mind and body and increase your body-sense.
As a side note, smoking does severely deplete the kidneys as well as tax the liver by causing it to have to break done the toxins as well as the stress hormones that are released by smoking. I am not saying you need to quit; smoking is a very personal thing and it takes many, many tries before one can truly quit. While it provides short-term relief from symptoms, it does dispose the body to increased anxiety due to its actions on the kidneys. Just make sure not to try the qigong exercises directly after or before smoking because your body will be in a more open, relaxed state. Other than that, don't beat yourself up about it either.
Just let me know if there is any other information I can find for you. Please feel free to consult other more experienced people. I try my best to back up my assertions with my own experience and the written word of professionals, but obviously this is a limited approach.
Posted by Lao Tzu on July 22, 2010, at 11:08:00
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 22, 2010, at 1:18:25
Thank you for the information. The Invigorator tonic sounds like a good start. Do you basically adhere to the dosages suggested? I'm wondering if I might have to take less than what is suggested as I am very sensitive to any herbs. About smoking, if I can just refrain from having that first cigarette in the morning when I wake, maybe I'll be able to abstain for the rest of the day. As soon as I have that first cigarette, I'm hooked for the rest of the day. It's hard to stop. Exercise is a good suggestion. I'll try it. Thanks again.
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on July 22, 2010, at 13:42:27
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Lao Tzu on July 22, 2010, at 11:08:00
Just purchased Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan today from Best Chinese Medicines. You say you have had no side effects from mixing the herbs with the pharmaceuticals. That is reassuring. The medicines I take are Risperdal, Zoloft, and Lamictal. I am slightly nervous about using the herbal tonics because of all the medication I'm on, but so far, I haven't had any problems using cinnamon, ginger, or holy basil. Can you say without a doubt that adding the Chinese medicine has been a good move on your part in the long-run? I am wondering if I should not be negligent and first, ask my doctor before I start taking them? The vitamins I'm not worried about. The herbs, well, I know they can be quite potent. So you say you don't have any side effects using the herbs with your medicine? I did read one source about using Chinese medicine for schizophrenia. It said that the best outcome used herbs in addition to Western conventional medicine rather than either alone. That's also reassuring, but to be honest, I have no idea what I'm doing with the herbs. I do have a list of the Chinese herbs used in schizophrenia. It's a very long list and it depends on the type of Schizophrenia that is manifested. It also states that each individual needs to be treated separately, whereas in western medicine, they lump everybody into the same category. How ignorant of us!!! I like the Chinese way.
Posted by Hombre on July 22, 2010, at 20:36:27
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Lao Tzu on July 22, 2010, at 13:42:27
Hi Lao Tzu,
I stick to the dosages on the bottle religiously. 8 small pills, 3x a day, with lukewarm or warm water. For tonics, I've read it's best 30 min before a meal. If I forget, I'll take it 1 hour after. You may want to space it out an hour or two from your regular meds, but for the most part I think you'll be OK.
I told my pdoc that I was taking vitamins and she said if it helps to do it. I told her I was taking Chinese herbs and she also said to do it if it helped.
Of course it would be a good idea to consult with a doctor, but they are often ignorant or dismissive about alternative therapies or even nutrition, since they have little to no training in those areas.
I know that in China, Chinese docs get a good Western medical background along with their TCM training. They work side-by-side with Western docs in the hospitals. I've tried to look for herb/med interactions, but for the most part they have to do with blood thinners or other non-psyche conditions. There are also nurses and MDs who have studied Chinese medicine, I don't mean short courses in acupuncture-by-the-numbers. If you are lucky enough to find someone like this you may find a strong ally. Check the national chinese medicine and acupuncture certification boards to find people in your area.
The line between foods and herbs can be blurry. I feel that herbs interact at a level "underneath" the meds. They are not nearly as singular and potent in their actions as pharmaceuticals, for better or for worse. They have affinity for certain organs and systems and these relationships have been noted over time. Your own personal constitution is also important. A hot, firy person would probably not do as well on a warm herb like Korean ginseng, for example. Neutral/cool American ginseng, on the other hand, taken on a regular basis, would create a better balance for said person.
So for my condition and constitutional tendencies, the herbs have helped a lot. No doubt. In that sense you could say I was "ready". I knew what to do with the added energy and had good habits in place (meditation, exercise, eating at regular times, positive attitude). I felt like the meds were taking me maybe 60-75% there, which is a lot and I am thankful for that, but the niggling side-effects and the unpredictable fluctuations in energy and focus didn't give me the confidence to really think I was fit to rejoin the world. I can't promise you anything, but I hope that you derive benefit that catalyzes your move to the next level of recovery.
Hombre
Posted by Lao Tzu on July 23, 2010, at 9:53:01
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 22, 2010, at 20:36:27
Thank you for the information, Hombre. Yes, I haven't reached that point where I am ready to rejoin the world yet. The meds are helpful for the most severe symptoms, but I still have lingering negative symptoms. I am willing to try the herbs if they can help with my fatigue and apathy. I'll give them a try. Lately, I have been focusing on zinc and B6, both of which are helpful for my depression and anxiety. I've come a long way since a few years ago, and I guess I'm just looking to improve the apathy and low motivation. Your posts have been most helpful. Thanks for sharing all that with us.
Lao
Posted by Hombre on July 24, 2010, at 10:51:21
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Lao Tzu on July 23, 2010, at 9:53:01
Anytime, brother. You are very brave to try something that doesn't get much press. Your determination and open mind are inspiring to us.
Posted by Hombre on July 27, 2010, at 8:04:50
In reply to Re: Chinese Medicine)))Hombre, posted by Hombre on July 24, 2010, at 10:51:21
Hey Lao,
I just went through "Herbal Healing Secrets of the Orient", and it turned out to be a really down-to-earth take on TCM and herbs. I normally wouldn't read something with such a cheesy title, but it ended up having a lot of depth while remaining very accessible. She starts the book by describing the seasons and how they relate to the 5-element theory, but instead of dwelling on the mysteries of the 5-elements, she uses pratical analogies to give you a good feel for how these "energies" (or climates) can describe our internal state. She frequently asks the reader to think in terms of their own "internal garden", an apt metaphor considering the agrarian roots of Chinese philosophy as well as being a metaphor we can all grasp to some extent. She also has some great checklists so you can determine your unique constitutional type and what herbs may be better for you.
This author, like the author of "The Male Herbal", doesn't believe that all the knowledge has to be in the hands of the experts. She describes everything from choosing and buying herbs to preparing your own decoctions, teas, tinctures, pills as well as how to add herbs to the nutritious recipes peppered throughout the book. She explains why herbal formulas are the way they are, how certain proportions of herbs have proved for centuries that they create synergistic effects. I will finally have access to a kitchen in less than 3 weeks and I will definitely be cooking up herbal chicken soup and other goodies for my overworked girlfriend. I feel empowered by this book as well as The Male Herbal.
The author does a great job describing about 100 essential herbs, including historical background, common uses around the world, as well as the energetic nature and effects of the herbs. Usually this is the most boring part of an herbal, but in this case you can either go into the details or jump straight to the nitty gritty of how the herbs act on the body (taste and nature). She also lists common patent remedies (Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan and Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan (for some reason called "Sexoton") listed under Fatigue).
Anyway, there is a section where she says that for chronic conditions, the length of time that one might have to take herbs to see real change is one month for every year that the condition has persisted. One may also want to take tonic herbs for 3 months and then take a break for 2 weeks. I think that depends; I stopped taking "Sexoton" (what a name) a.k.a. Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan for about a week and felt a difference. Again, I think this is due to the unpleasant energetic side-effects of the medications. I think the herbs fight a constant battle to balance out the unintended side-effects of the meds. At less than US$4 a week, I think I can handle that.
As an experiment I decided to take Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan again as my main Qi tonic. I think it is superior to the other tonic I was taking - I feel much clearer in the head, and even though I have been dealing with some pretty heavy stress lately I am mostly staying on top. I feel normal sadness and some depression, but I snap back to high energy and positive thinking. And since my living situation will improve drastically soon, I can't wait to see how much more whole I feel as a result. It's like I've been on the road for a year, living out of a hotel room. I'll finally have a place where I can grow some herbs and make my own healing foods.
Sorry for such a long post - I just wanted to pass on the info that you might need to be patient. I definitely needed more than a month to see consistent effects, but since then it's like I can't even remember what it was like to be sort of OK, but not well enough to really see myself getting back out there. I only hope that you can have at least some of the benefit. If not, it is perfectly normal to seek out any one of the numerous other formulas out there.
This is the end of the thread.
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