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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Trotter on May 30, 2009, at 3:05:40
I think people with mood disorders such as anxiety and depression should at least consider they may have some form of dysbiosis and perhaps try probiotics.
http://www.herbs2000.com/articles/09-04-17_probiotic_anxiety.htm
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090408/bc_dr/20090408?hub=BritishColumbiaHealth
Trotter
Posted by garnet71 on May 31, 2009, at 1:18:19
In reply to Probiotics for anxiety, posted by Trotter on May 30, 2009, at 3:05:40
I was wowed by those abstracts. I see they are rather new. Lots of people have discussed this issue here, but haven't seen studies. I've asked doctors about this, and they've just dismissed it.
Would you have to have digestive problems to have this issue? It seems the study recognized these problems.
So-could you get those same proboitics used in the study from yogurt-like Stoneyfield? Can you make your own yogurt with that bacterium by starting a batch from the Stoneyfield? I quit eating yogurt about 2 months ago, just can't afford the groceries I used to buy.
I wonder when more doctors are going to start considering natural cures. Thanks for posting this!!!
Posted by desolationrower on June 1, 2009, at 6:01:40
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety, posted by garnet71 on May 31, 2009, at 1:18:19
> I was wowed by those abstracts. I see they are rather new. Lots of people have discussed this issue here, but haven't seen studies. I've asked doctors about this, and they've just dismissed it.
heh, i keep wanting to tell people doctors aren't scientists. Theyr'e more like priests who have their holy book updated (by scientists!) every few decades.
> Would you have to have digestive problems to have this issue? It seems the study recognized these problems.
its probably an indication that something is worse, but i'd think the relationship woudl be pretty loose
> So-could you get those same proboitics used in the study from yogurt-like Stoneyfield? Can you make your own yogurt with that bacterium by starting a batch from the Stoneyfield? I quit eating yogurt about 2 months ago, just can't afford the groceries I used to buy.
i tried exactly that a while ago, a few of the issues are that as live cultures like yoghurt or sourdough continue to grow, they more and more become whatever the local bacteria is in your environment, as the stonyfield strains are outcompeted by the natural bacteria from air, skin, etc. which isn't necessarily a problem, hte local strains might be better or worse, hard to know. they usually don't make as good of a culinary product though. you can take a pint of stonyfield, divide it up into an icecube tray, and so the cost is divided out over a dozen batches, and you get good quality still.
> I wonder when more doctors are going to start considering natural cures. Thanks for posting this!!!
oh, and prebiotics are also important.-d/r
Posted by Phillipa on June 1, 2009, at 13:01:30
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety, posted by desolationrower on June 1, 2009, at 6:01:40
d/r what's a prebiotic. I eat Dannon nonfat mixed in my cereal daily. Think it's of help? Love Phillipa
Posted by Trotter on June 1, 2009, at 15:39:06
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety, posted by desolationrower on June 1, 2009, at 6:01:40
> heh, i keep wanting to tell people doctors aren't scientists. Theyr'e more like priests who have their holy book updated (by scientists!) every few decades.
Haha. Well put! If it weren't for scientists, doctors would still be using leeches to cure most diseases, and decrying all disbelievers as heretics. Most doctors have a 'flat earth' mentality. If it isn't in their 'bible', it doesn't exist.
Posted by Trotter on June 1, 2009, at 15:49:16
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety, posted by Trotter on June 1, 2009, at 15:39:06
I'm seriously considering the ultimate in probiotics, human probiotic infusion (HBI), as a potential cure for my depression/anxiety symptoms.
Posted by johnj1 on June 1, 2009, at 20:29:38
In reply to Probiotics for anxiety, posted by Trotter on May 30, 2009, at 3:05:40
Where can someone get probiotics like they used? Ever since I had pnuemonia and used antibiotics I haven't been the same. I need to use something because I can't tolerate dairy. What to use????
Posted by Trotter on June 1, 2009, at 20:52:05
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety » Trotter, posted by johnj1 on June 1, 2009, at 20:29:38
I wish I could give you a good answer. There are so many probiotics out there. What works for one person doesn't for the next. When you work out which one is best, let me know. :)
For what it's worth, I have the following on my short list to trial.
VSL #3
Culturelle
Sustenex
LB17
Ohhira's Probiotics 12 Plus
TheralacIndividuals will 'swear by' a certain brand because it worked for them. Doesn't mean it will do anything for you. I think you need to give it enough time to work though, perhaps 2 months.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2009, at 21:08:33
In reply to Probiotics for anxiety, posted by Trotter on May 30, 2009, at 3:05:40
Thanks for reminding me about the importance of supplementing with probiotics. I get off-track, and maybe when I most need something like that, I'm less likely to take it.
I've been really pleased with the quality/potency of Kirkman brand products. They ship them by rush courier with refigerator packs.
http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/CategoryProductListing@Parent_Category_ID@154.aspx
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2009, at 21:27:59
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety » Trotter, posted by johnj1 on June 1, 2009, at 20:29:38
> Where can someone get probiotics like they used? Ever since I had pnuemonia and used antibiotics I haven't been the same. I need to use something because I can't tolerate dairy. What to use????
You were asking about L.casei Shirota. I only know of one source, and that's fermented milk products. According to what I found, these brands contain L.c. Shirota: Danactive, Activia, Actimel, Yakult.
I can't find capsules or such with this strain in them.
The post just above this one links to Kirkman Labs. They have high-quality hypo-allergenic products. I've use the Bio-Gold, but there are other blends with more strains in them.
Lar
Posted by Sigismund on June 2, 2009, at 2:39:02
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety » Trotter, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2009, at 21:08:33
>They ship them by rush courier with refigerator packs.
They might irradiate it coming into Australia?
All this cats food got irradiated and 90 cats died.
Our imported food is also irradiated but at a safe level (of course).
Posted by johnj1 on June 2, 2009, at 19:59:29
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety » johnj1, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2009, at 21:27:59
Thank you for your insight, as always it is much appreciated. I would like to start continue with this thread on some things I have researched and will be making this weekend.
One is cultured vegetables and I purchased the following vegie starter to help with this:
https://shop.bodyecology.com/products.asp?dept=1002
What do you think Larry? I have done some reading that says you don't need a starter so I am not sure. The Koreans with Kim-che and my German grandmother never used starters but I want to start off safe and see what happens.
I hope others weight in and if not I may start a new thread. Thanks Larry. Notice there is a kefir starter too.
Best regards
Johnj
Posted by HyperFocus on June 3, 2009, at 13:47:40
In reply to Probiotics for anxiety, posted by Trotter on May 30, 2009, at 3:05:40
Started on Progurt (http://progurt.com.au) a month ago. A friend of the family's had astonishing results with her son who suffers from MS. Don't know if it's doing anything for depression + anxiety but it shouldn't hurt anything.
Posted by bleauberry on June 3, 2009, at 18:34:01
In reply to Probiotics for anxiety, posted by Trotter on May 30, 2009, at 3:05:40
Thanks Larry for the tip on Kirkmans brand. I was looking at that and thinking of ordering. I have been using the Renew Life brand from Whole Foods Market, the one called Critical Care which is 50 billion units of 10 strains in each enteric coated capsule. That is a potent enough strength to crowd out enough yeast to cause a mild Herx response. Anything less really isn't enough. 35 billion did nothing. Most common brands are only a few billion units, which is basically useless except for a healthy person to maintain health. Not nearly enough to treat an illness though. If interested, read on...
The following three conditions all involve yeast problems, intestinal problems, and immune problems. Depression, fatigue, and brain fog are almost always the most noticeable symptoms:
1) Yeast
2) Metals (mercury)
3) LymeWhile metals or Lyme would appear the worst, I was surprised to find yeast is by far the heaviest burden on me. I ahve (mispselling left unedited to show the brain fog :-) all three and on a rotating basis treat all three. I could probably live with the Lyme and metals, but yeast is devastating. Of them all, the top over riding symptom for me is depression. Of all the treatments I have taken for depression, the ones that had me feeling the best, by a long shot, were not psychiatric drugs. And that is why I preach so often at pbabble to look outside the box of psychiatry if things aren't going well. There is something else going on.
Doctors don't know the stuff, specialists are the worst to see, and psychiatrists are fairly impotent but do get lucky sometimes.
The problem is, there isn't much outward sign of yeast, other than the depression and brain fog stuff. The toxins they secrete are quite powerful. But unseen. All you or your doctor sees is "depression".
It ties into this thread because probiotics are one of the strategies in a multipronged approach to restore intestinal integrity, immune integrity, and mood. Probiotics are helpful for all three of the above conditions. I have even seen a child psychiatrist where one of his primary weapons against depression is Nystatin, an antiyeast med.
The problem is that most people do not understand the whole picture. Taking a pill a day of a strong probiotic is not very therapeutic. In illnesses, it requires as much as 10 times the dose stated on the bottle. But any dose is better than none.
The other thing is time. It takes a long time to repair things. Not days or weeks. It takes several months.
The other thing is sugar. Yeast and all anti-probiotic organisms thrive on sugar. They can remultiply faster than you can slow them down if they keep getting the fuel they need. For any probiotic therapy to work strong, it needs to have a low/no sugar diet, at least for the first few weeks. That means none of the so-called "s's" my LLMD spelled out to me...sugar, sucrose, sucrolose, splenda. Anything with those on the ingredient label have to be avoided, and all ingredient labels have to be read. Some advocate going as far as eliminatinig all fruits, juices, grains, and some sugary vegetables. That is probably the world's most demanding diet I've ever heard of. I think eliminating the 4 s's and limiting the other things is good enough, but again, takes time.
The final thing is, killing the anti-probiotic organisms. And then allowing their damage to the intestinal walls and immune system to heal. That's where the probiotics really shine. Again, time. Persistence. To kill them, one can starve them with the strictest diet, or one can take the drug Nystatin, or any number of herbs are potent against them, including Pau D'Arco, high dose garlic, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Caprilic Acid, Oregeno Oil, and Black Walnut Hull tincture. Don't be fooled, these herbs are really potent antimicrobials. Seriously potent. And yet somehow spare the good guys. For different people, which herb works best varies. As with all treatments, trial and error.
In any case, this thread is about probiotics for healing disease. I just wanted to say that probiotics in normal doses as a stand-alone strategy is not likely to do a whole lot. There will probably be some noticeable gains over time. But to make huge progress with staying power, a multpronged attack is needed.
And through it all, if there really is a problem that probiotics are needed for, you will know it very clearly by way of the famous Herxheimer reaction. That is, if you are indeed killing a bunch of bad guys, you will feel real bad for a short time ranging from a few days to a few weeks. During that time, your body is flooded with the toxins and corpses of those things. Best bet is to be less aggressive in treatment and go a bit more gentle.
Keep the Herx reaction tolerable. A Herx is recognizable as increased fatigue, often debilitating, increased brain fog, worsened depression, aches and pains, flu-like. But unlike the flu, the Herx is actually a good thing because it is solidly diagnostic as well as an indication healing is underway.
But if you are taking a normal dose of some probiotic without any of the other strategies tied into it, you won't have a Herx and your treatment will be non-conclusive, non-diagnostic, and you will likely come away from it saying probiotics don't work. At the very least, I think people should approach this with the attitude..."I want a Herx reation because that is a diagnosis no doctor can do in a lab, and it is a huge cause of psychiatric illness...I want to see if I have this and either rule it in or rule it out". To do that though, a daily dose probiotic is useless.
Can pro-biotic anti-yeast treatments work against stubborn treatment resistant depression and anxiety? Definitely without question, yes. That's why treatment resisted the more conventional approaches. They were just so off target as to not stand much of a chance. For a brain under assault by toxins, slowing itself down as a defense, throwing more serotonin at it is kind of like pissing in the wind.
If you are taking a bunch of probiotics, more than on the bottle's label, upwards of 50 billion units or more per day, skipping sugar, and taking some kind of antiyeast herb or med, and you don't feel anything bad from it, well, then you don't need probiotics for your disease. Your disease is from something else.
Posted by desolationrower on June 12, 2009, at 10:29:25
In reply to Re: Probiotics for anxiety, posted by bleauberry on June 3, 2009, at 18:34:01
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 2:19:22
In reply to relationship to inflammation/obesity, posted by desolationrower on June 12, 2009, at 10:29:25
Oh, this all makes a ton of sense. I am lucky to have a gp who is a specialist in fibromyalgia. She said one day, "Have we talked yet about leaky gut?" Reading more about these issues, I understand that getting help with them is going to help everything in my life: my fibromyalgia, IBS, depression, anxiety, etc. I am excited to have all this tied together in some way.
Posted by Trotter on June 18, 2009, at 3:06:55
In reply to leaky gut and depression, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 2:19:22
Absolutely awesome find Amelia. I have suspected for a while that a lot of depression is caused by dysbiosis, but even I am surprised by the implications of these findings, if they are reliable.
It reinforces my belief that the ultimate solution to my own depression is to be found in my gut.
Posted by Trotter on June 18, 2009, at 3:21:15
In reply to leaky gut and depression, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 2:19:22
Bifidobacterium has been proven quite helpful in reducing the effects of gram negative bacteria.
"Since bifidobacteria have been reported to reduce intestinal endotoxin levels and improve mucosal barrier function ...
Multiple-correlation analyses showed that endotoxaemia significantly and negatively correlated with Bifidobacterium spp., but no relationship was seen between endotoxaemia and any other bacterial group"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788"These results suggest that Bifidobacteria could in some measure prevent the translocation of both endotoxin and bacteria from the gut lumen to the internal organs."
http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_10/num_1/text/vol10n1p45.htm"Bifidobacteria were found to exert strong inhibitory activity towards Gram-negative indicator bacteria, namely Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium SL1344 and Escherichia coli C1845. The inhibitory mechanism was investigated and was shown to be dependent on the lowering of the pH of the medium and the production of organic acids, in particular acetic acid and lactic acid."
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17887259
Posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 23:30:05
In reply to Re: leaky gut and depression » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Trotter on June 18, 2009, at 3:21:15
>the ultimate solution to my own depression is to be found in my gut.
That's where the most serotonin receptors are?
Is that of any significance?
Posted by Trotter on June 19, 2009, at 1:12:05
In reply to Re: leaky gut and depression, posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 23:30:05
Interesting. Is there a biofeedback loop between the serotonin receptors in the intestines and the brain which affects serotonin levels? Maybe. I have no idea really.
I was thinking more along the lines of damage to brain function caused by neurotoxins created by bad bacteria and/or fungus.
This is the end of the thread.
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