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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by circusboy on October 31, 2006, at 12:47:14
Subsubject: Deeper Into Herbals
Figures. A few weeks after my quasicoherent blatherings about herbal supplements vs. supplement-supplements following an unsuccessful fling with Rhodiola, I'm back in supplements aisle at Whole Foods.
To try to relieve the poor sleep I've been having for about two weeks now, I bought some Gaia brand Valerian Poppy Supreme tincture. It didn't work all that well for sleep, but, unexpectedly, my mood was much brighter the next day. And, in spite of my sleepiness, my concentration was much better: I only needed a quarter of my usual daily dose of methylphenidate (usually 20mg/day).
I felt the same effect the next few days. When I skip it, my mood isn't as good and my concentration is poorer again.
Any ideas what could be helping? Here's what's in it:
Valerian Root (Valeriana officinalis)
Skullcap Herb (Scutellaria lateriflora)
California Poppy Herb (Eschscholzia californica)
Kava Kava root & rhizome (Piper methysticum)
Passionflower Vine (Passiflora incarnata)
German Chamomile Flowers (Matricaria recutita)
Mugwort Herb (Artemesia vulgaris)I'm thinking it might be the Passion Flower, actually. And yes, it's possible that just getting a slightly better night's sleep had something to do with it... but still. There's something going on here.
I bought a bottle of passion flower tincture and another of skullcap, but I'm, once again, having trouble with the empiricism. :)
-cb
P.S. - Here's where I am on herbal sleep aids:
- Valerian is very good, but even better in combination with Kava. Jury's still out on passion flower and skullcap.
- Hops-containing sleep aids knock me out, but leave me feeling worse the next day. Makes sense to me that it's contraindicated for depressives.
Posted by linkadge on October 31, 2006, at 15:23:59
In reply to What in this tincture is brightening my mood?, posted by circusboy on October 31, 2006, at 12:47:14
Kava, Passionflower, and Skullcap all can have some positive effect on mood.
Linkadge
Posted by circusboy on October 31, 2006, at 16:17:53
In reply to Re: What in this tincture is brightening my mood?, posted by linkadge on October 31, 2006, at 15:23:59
> Kava, Passionflower, and Skullcap all can have some positive effect on mood.
>Thanks... I didn't know skullcap was on the mood++ list.
Anybody use these herbs regularly for depressive symptoms? Or for anxiety, but notice an incidental improvement in mood?
-cb
Posted by verne on November 5, 2006, at 3:04:20
In reply to What in this tincture is brightening my mood?, posted by circusboy on October 31, 2006, at 12:47:14
I've tried tinctures, teas, and even smoking most of the herbs on your list.
The only two on the list that I still use are skullcap and mugwort. Skullcap is calming yet enlivens the awareness ("Yoga of Herbs") whereas Valerian Root sedates and dulls the senses.
California Poppy is probably the strongest sedative on the list. The tea knocks me out but sleep is fitful and there's a bit of a hangover. I'm thinking about trying smaller doses.
I like anything in the artemesia family which includes Mugwort and Wormwood. My head always feels clearer. Both are calming in a subtle way too. Wormwood is stronger and too much can cause a headache.
From my personal experience, Kava Kava (and I've tried huge doses) never did a thing for me. I finally realized, too, that Passion Flower was no better than Valerian Root. I even tried strong tinctures and "buds". The result was just agitated grogginess. I was too sedated to stay up yet unable to sleep.
I really wanted Passion Flower to work after I had read all the hype. It sounded like the perfect herb for my mixture of depression and anxiety. The jury was out for a long time as I tried different brands, drank various teas, and smoked the buds in my water pipe. The verdict is in and I've abandoned further experimentation.
Chamomile is the most popular sleep aid in Europe but I just feel hot, sweaty, and queasy after even one cup of the tea. It is a strong diaphoretic which is enough to keep me up anyway.
Skullcap and Mugwort have always treated me right and help me with mood and sleep both. I also use Feverfew (Nature's Way Premium caps with the purple label), and Yellow Dock.
Feverfew is famous for curing the worst headaches - even migraines, but I use it for anxiety, insomnia, and depression.
Yellow Dock is a major blood cleanser that reduces "toxic heat" in the body. According to Yoga of Herbs, it "clears and promotes cerebral circulation". Somehow this translates into another very subtle calming herb for me.
Like you, I'm still trying various herbs and mixtures. I think I have some Gaia brand stuff too. I recently gave vervain a second tryout but the tea was simply undrinkable. (maybe just too strong) I keep trying albizzia flowers once in awhile and notice little. The bark powder does even less.
I think Rhodiola is a keeper. I'm usually taking it with Relora and Hoodia though so I'm not sure what's doing what. Some, or all of these herbs, seem to have an anti-depressant quality. I was positively high one morning when I took those three herbs in addition to Feverfew.
I hope to start keeping better notes once I've been off booze for awhile. Nothing works right until I've been off alcohol at least a week or two.
Verne
Posted by teejay on November 5, 2006, at 6:28:54
In reply to Re: What in this tincture is brightening my mood? » circusboy, posted by verne on November 5, 2006, at 3:04:20
Great post verne, I for one eagerly look forward to your updates.
TJ
Posted by circusboy on November 7, 2006, at 18:30:56
In reply to Re: What in this tincture is brightening my mood? » circusboy, posted by verne on November 5, 2006, at 3:04:20
Verne,
Thanks so much... your post was immediately helpful to me. First, it helped me tease out at least one useful herb from that concoction: skullcap.
Skullcap does make me a little drowsy/spacy, but that usually passes within an hour. After that, I'm a warmer, more connected person. In the right situation it's even something of an aphrodisiac. Anyway, A dose of ~60 drops during the course of the evening virtually eliminates irritability the next day. I am afraid that it has a slight cognitive dulling effect, but the positives probably outweigh the negatives.
Second, it let me to abandon my own passion flower trial. It turns out that the skullcap was the thing. Passion flower does to me pretty much what you describe: puts me in a useless grogginess on the edge of sleep.
As for the others... I do actually like kava. It *definitely* has a calming effect at night, and it seems to help me concentrate during the day. I need to do some more testing in the future.
I'm planning to try wormwood/mugwort soon. How and when do you take it yourself? Feverfew is also seems promising -- I have what is probably some kind of migraine (until recently I assumed it was sinus-related) on the left side of my head sometimes. Usually when I'm feeling generally scattered.
As for the alcohol... 2-3 drinks at the end of the day is pretty central to my daily routine. What do you notice when you give it up?
-cb
Posted by verne on November 7, 2006, at 19:22:50
In reply to Re: What in this tincture is brightening my mood? » verne, posted by circusboy on November 7, 2006, at 18:30:56
I'm drinking again so I'll squeeze in a response before I'm hungover and regret it.
I like Feverfew more than Skullcap. I suspect skullcap works better when I'm off booze for a long time. Skullcap isn't the thug Valerian Root is (can I get blocked for that, please?) but it is still sedating.
Feverfew is very subtle, not a bully - working more on my anxiety. I'm playing around with combinations of Hoodia, Rhodalia, Relora, and Albizzia too. Ashwaganha hasn't worked out at all.
I only take Skullcap before bed. As a sleep aid, it isn't sure-fire but more gentle than something like the party-crashing Valerian.
I remember reading a book about herbs that described Valerian as a "heroic" herb. In other words, you will feel like you've been rescued or mugged - maybe both.
My problem is that I first evaluate herbs, take them on "sea trials", for recreational value first. True, I'm a hypochrondriac and concerned about my health, but I'm also a pleasure-seeking heathen that wishes LSD were legal.
Sometimes the two disciplines actually meet. Seeking pleasure and being health conscious aren't completely incongruous. Lasting peace, or even joy, that can only be found on the spiritual plane, is better still.
I lost my boarding pass long ago.
Verne
Posted by verne on November 7, 2006, at 19:35:00
In reply to Re: What in this tincture is brightening my mood? » verne, posted by circusboy on November 7, 2006, at 18:30:56
I haven't taken mugwort or wormword in awhile. I plan to order some Mugwort again soon. For some reason anything in the artemsia family acts like an anti-depressant for me. Head clearing - like grapefruit seed extract.
Again, I'm allergic to booze (Nordic alcoholic with O-Negative blood type, 3-day hang overs, feeling like I'm being stung by bees) so I can't really evaluate anything until I've been off the alcohol for awhile.
I'm hopeful. Tonite I talked myself into it, what with the election and all. Nevermind that I didn't vote and don't even know what the score is. Nevermind that I'll be so sick tomorrow, I won't care if aliens are running the country.
gotta run and play some online (legal) texas holdem for semi-meaningless tokens.
verne
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