![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 18, 2006, at 21:27:52
Does any one out there have any idea or links to some research that show current thinking about what causes panic attacks. Ive seen some ideas
High Lactic acid
Hypoglycemia
Elevated norepinephrine levels
Any pointers or clues would be appreciatedPlease excuse spelling or grammer -its late at night and anxiety is making me feel jaded
Posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 3:34:52
In reply to What causes panic attacks, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 18, 2006, at 21:27:52
"What Causes Panic Disorder?
Heredity, other biological factors, stressful life events, and thinking in a way that exaggerates relatively normal bodily reactions are all believed to play a role in the onset of panic disorder. The exact cause or causes of panic disorder are unknown and are the subject of intense scientific investigation.
Studies in animals and humans have focused on pinpointing the specific brain areas and circuits involved in anxiety and fear, which underlie anxiety disorders such as panic disorder. Fear, an emotion that evolved to deal with danger, causes an automatic, rapid protective response that occurs without the need for conscious thought. It has been found that the body's fear response is coordinated by a small structure deep inside the brain, called the amygdala.
The amygdala, although relatively small, is a very complicated structure, and recent research suggests that anxiety disorders may be associated with abnormal activitation in the amygdala. One aim of research is to use such basic scientific knowledge to develop new therapies."
I don't think you can pin down panic attacks to just one cause it's usually a combination of things. Allergies can also be responsible, for example some people allergic to gluten will experience intense panic attacks and once they stop eating gluten the panic attacks stop or are less intense.
I'm afraid there's more than one cause. The best known way to deal with panic attacks and other anxiety conditions is to change your behaviour towards them. Which is basically feeling the fear and learning that you won't faint, you certainly won't go crazy and you won't die, and learning how to cope. The body/brain is capable of learning and adapting, you just need to take it one step at a time and over time the body will learn to not be afraid. Easier said than done of course. However if you can stick it out, you have the best chance of recovery.
There's a free course that is really behaviour therapy and breathing techniques, which you may find helpful. Learning to breathe properly to control panic can be empowering.
http://www.panic-attacks.co.uk/
"Breathing-Master-Key-Self-Healing"
http://www.anxietycoach.com/pan5.htm
http://www.anxietycoach.com/breathing.htm
Posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 4:01:21
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 3:34:52
I wanted to provide some information about alternative therapies. I suffer Agoraphobia and Panic Attacks. I do think alternative therapies work. However for this condition I find them to be more supportive.
I think the first port of call is your doctor, as long as he or she is an understanding doctor. They can refer you to a psychologist for cognitive behaviour therapy. The doctor can also do blood tests to see that there's no underlying condition like a problem with thyroid etc. The doctor should know what tests to do. This provides reassurance.
Now on to what 'works'
Magnesium is one of the better supplements for helping to calm you down and in some people relieves their panic almost totally. Magnesium Glycinate, Taurate or Citrate are good forms to try.
L-Taurine is known to have a calming effect on panic. Some people again only need Taurine to help them with the attacks.
L-Theanine is known to be a calming and extremely safe supplement to take.
Chamomile Tea is nice and relaxing, so is Valerian Tea (I use Dr Stuarts Valerian Plus brand)
Kava Kava is also very good. If you are allowed it in your country then I recommend http://www.konakavafarm.com/ to obtain it.
There's plenty more things. Drugs from the doctor have a much more powerful effect but as soon as you stop taking the Valium or Parnate or other anti anxiety/anti depressant drug your condition will more than likely return. They can be helpful for immediate and effective relief but the ultimate goal is to learn to manage the condition and bring back your confidence.
Don't try and manage the condition using alcohol. So don't use alcohol to calm you down. It's a dangerous path to take. Also cut down or stop taking caffeine as that's known to cause panic in susceptible persons.
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 19, 2006, at 12:43:46
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 3:34:52
Nolvas Thank you very much for your kind reply…I do appreciate the effort you made in responding to my posting
I’m based in the UK (surrey) and looking for a good clinic to deal with this condition once and for all. I’m not so optimistic as to believe that I can get rid the condition totally. I believe that you manage this condition so its not a blight on your life. There must be a way of living drug free and taking supplements instead.
Recently I was on anafranil, which seemed to manage the condition but left me lethargic and semi impotent. Before that was luvox which was not quite as effective but had far less side effects. Three years ago I tried a whole range of pills with my psychiatrist most of the tricyclics were useless or made me worse while the SSRI were slightly better. From 2000 to 2003 I was on peroxotine, which in hindsight was the best drug ever. I stopped taking peroxotine due to it seemed to losing its efficiency with dealing with my symptoms However it must be said that none of the drugs stopped my anxiety it just cut the edge off so that life was bearable and I didn’t seemed focused on my symptoms. I still use to get panic attacks but my generalised anxiety seemed to be cut heavily. There was one common problem with all the drugs, was that any drug that raised my norepinephrine levels sent me through the roof. The cleaner the SSRI, the better it was for me when it came to side effects. However it does seem to me that if my problem was just serotonin-based luvox or peroxotine would have fixed the problem. When I had a 24-hour urine test it did show elevated norepinephrine levels and when I took venlafaxine (effexor) it half sent my crazy with stress. To say I had a bad reaction to venlafaxine was an understatement. It was one of the worst experiences in my life.
A couple of months ago I stopped taking anafranil and was taking ST JOHN WORT, which I did find useful. It got ride of all the side effects of Anafranil however it had all new side effects of its own such as wild dreams at night and sweating during the day. Eventually the dreams stopped but the sweating continued. Very recently ( a week ago) I went away and forgot to take my ST JOHNS WORT with me. So in essence im on no antidepressant at all.
Last night I tried l-glutamate and it wound me up big time, I didn’t sleep at all. I cant believe that I could have such a strong reaction to a supplement. Its kind of freak me out about using amino acids. Maybe most of the glutamate was converted into glutimac acid and I already have an imbalance between the two. I would be surprised if I am glutimac acid heavy and GABA light. Enough rambling for today
Thanks Novas for your kind reply
Posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 13:08:23
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 19, 2006, at 12:43:46
Some people do well on L-Tryptophan or 5-HTP for treating panic attacks. You can obtain both in the UK. L-Tryptophan you would have to import but it's ok in my experience to do so.
I wouldn't be too misled by Serotonin, as there's a novel antidepressant called Tianeptine which helps the body break down Serotonin. This also has anti anxiety properties. Serotonin is implicated in panic disorder but so are other neurotransmitters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine
"Tianeptine also displays significant anxiolytic properties and is useful in treating a spectrum of anxiety disorders including panic disorder, as evidenced by a study in which those administered 35% CO2 gas on paroxetine (Paxil) or tianeptine (Stablon) therapy showed equivalent panic-blocking effects."
So on one hand you have SSRI's which block the reuptake of Serotonin, and Tianeptine which enhances the reuptake of Serotonin. Both have anxiolytic effects. They also affect other neurotransmitters to some degree. In fact here is a link that explains it.
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2005/11/depression_and_the_l.html
The drug companies do like you to believe in myths to keep selling the drugs. Drugs definitely have their place but after all they want to make money.
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 19, 2006, at 14:18:14
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 13:08:23
Yes
I agree with about you in regards to serotonin. If our problems were just serotonin based then SSRI drugs would be fantastic however we both now that this is not the case. One thing I have read is that Tianeptine reduces cortisol quite strongly. I suspect that this is its real method of action. The thories about cortisl seem to make sense to me. It would also explain why it takes more than 2 weeks for there to be a improvement. It seems to me if you have enough cortisol in your blood stream and it seem to shrinks parts of your brain(from what Ive read). I imagine cortisol goes through the blood brain barrier very easily.Cheers Kiwiredbeach
Nolvas are you based in the UK have you heard any good or bad about the "priory"
Posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 17:04:25
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 19, 2006, at 14:18:14
Tianeptine alters the norepinephrine system.
http://www.tianeptine.com/serotonin-noradrenaline.html
The way Tianeptine interacts and alters the norepinephrine system is more complex than I curently understand. It also differs in the short term as opposed to longer term usage.
Anyway yes I have heard of The Priory it seems to be where all the celebs go, if that's the one I'm thinking of (Priory Group?). So it seems logical that to visit The Priory you will be needing a fair amount of cash, and I would imagine because celebs have the money to visit better places then that's probably a decent recommendation.
I've heard www.nickkemp.com is very good. He's worked with Richard Bandler and Paul McKenna. Charges something like £125 per hour. He's also on a BBC radio show in Leeds or Sheffield where he regularly cures people of their phobias.
http://tranceformingnlp.com/phobia_cures_nlp_nick_kemp_bbc_radio_leeds.php#bbc
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 20, 2006, at 4:46:53
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by nolvas on October 19, 2006, at 17:04:25
nolvas
My wife use to work for the priory and she organised me see to a top guy for anxiety. He charges for the first consultation £350 pounds (600 us dollars)I was expecting a big bill but this was still a shock. I wasnt expecting him to be cheap, but still what a bill....... The therapy sessions with psychologist afterwards is £105 which is more reasonable. No wonder only the rich and famous can see him. The priory are really into CBT which I havent tried, Ive heard good things about CBT so it will be interesting to see what happens. Lucky for me my wife earns good money and we can afford the bill. Im starting a new job monday that pays ok so were in a reasonable income bracket which is a godsend at the moment. Im mentally putting aside 3000 pounds for priory costs over the next six months, which if it gets rid of 50% of my anxiety via cbt will be a bargin.
Im seeing him tonight at 5pm so ill let u know what happens
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 20, 2006, at 14:22:35
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 20, 2006, at 4:46:53
Wow thats expensive..! Sadly, i'm a student and my family ain't *that* rich to have 3 grand spare...and my boyfriend is a research scientist, so he doesn't earn much (damn true love!) Perhaps the Finnish mental healthcare system is better.....
Its sad when we have to pay so much money in the UK for decent mental healthcare.... if we were cancer patients, there'd be much more outrage etc at he funding issues...........
Oh well.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 20, 2006, at 16:44:50
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 20, 2006, at 14:22:35
Ive seen this Pdoc from the priory and he was good. The first thing about him was that he was a good listener and knew a lot about the body. He really knew his stuff, the first pdoc who impressed me, most I think are idiots. He gave me a whole lot of things to do, take zinc, mag, fish oil, exercise (4 times a wek) he is also putting me on lyrica (pregabalin) which is interesting because i Suffered fits as a child. The health system doesnt pay for this stuff, so I hope it works well.
Regards Kiwibeach
Posted by kiwiredbeach on October 20, 2006, at 16:47:44
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 20, 2006, at 16:44:50
Just read this about the new drug I was put on
Data from a series of phase II and III placebo-controlled clinical studies in over 1,200 patients with generalised anxiety disorder suggest that Lyrica (pregabalin) will be effective for this disabling disorder. In comparison with venlafaxine, pregabalin provided more rapid relief of psychic and somatic symptoms. In comparison with alprazolam (a benzodiazepine), Lyrica (pregabalin) appeared equally effective in reducing somatic symptoms. Overall, these findings show that Lyrica (pregabalin) combines the benefits of both antidepressants and benzodiazepines. It appears at least as rapid as benzodiazepines against somatic symptoms, while providing more rapid control of psychic symptoms than antidepressants.
Posted by nolvas on October 20, 2006, at 19:00:43
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by kiwiredbeach on October 20, 2006, at 16:47:44
Here's some more info about Lyrica. I hope it works well for you :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregabalin
Posted by nolvas on October 20, 2006, at 19:03:18
In reply to Re: What causes panic attacks, posted by nolvas on October 20, 2006, at 19:00:43
Sorry forgot to add this as well >
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041108/msgs/414879.html
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.