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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Laurie Beth on December 21, 2005, at 11:13:12
Several months ago, I got my phospholipids tested for essential fatty acids. As a nursing mom, I'd been supplementing with 2.5 - 5 grams of EPA/DHA combined a day (at the time, I was using a 2:1 ratio of EPA/DHA).
Here's what they were:
GLA 0.00
AA 6.91
EPA 5.57
DHA 6.02I was surprised to see my AA so low, but I have since realized that might not be so surprising. I don't eat a lot of meat, never eat organ meat, and usually get only the egg yolks that are in whatever processed food I eat. I get most of my protein from dairy and nuts (and some from whole-wheat bread). Since apparently dairy does not contain preformed arachidonic acid, maybe I don't typically get a huge amount of AA from my diet, especially relative to what I must be giving a nursing baby.
I get a good about of LA, however, and I would have assumed that that was getting converted into GLA, then into DGLA, then into AA. But there's alcoholism in a first-degree relative, and apparently people with alcoholism genes may be deficient in the enzyme needed to convert LA into GLA. The lab I used doesn't measure DGLA, unfortunately, and I'm not sure if a 0.00 GLA level also means my DGLA levels are low.
Anyhow, seeing these numbers made me wonder if I have too low a level of DGLA AND AA, at least while consuming so much omega-3 acids, and while giving my baby these essential fatty acids through my milk.
I am suffering from my second post-partum depression, which started about 2 months after this baby was born.
Does anyone know what a normal level of phospholipid AA is? Is 6.91 too low?
Thanks.
Posted by Laurie Beth on December 21, 2005, at 11:45:45
In reply to Normal level of arachidonic acid in blood?, posted by Laurie Beth on December 21, 2005, at 11:13:12
Ed-
I have read what you say about pyroluria on your site and find it interesting in light of what I think is my low arachidonic acid level. I am not sure I understand the connection between arachidonic acid deficiencies and the deficiencies of B6 and zinc involved in pyroluria; perhaps you could explain or refer me to a site that explains? And I'd appreciate any other thoughts you have on this topic.
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on December 21, 2005, at 15:58:27
In reply to Also, question for Ed O'Flaherty, posted by Laurie Beth on December 21, 2005, at 11:45:45
Dear Laurie,
The big centre for nutritional treatment of psychiatric illness is the Pfeiffer Center in Chicago (www.hriptc.org).There they try to find alternatives as we do on this board. They (especially William Walsh Ph.D,one of the founders) discovered that pyrolurics are low in arachidonic acid,an omega-6 fatty acid, which is treated with evening primrose oil and not fish oil. Those two oils have a similar pathway into the brain and too much fish oil will keep the EPO low.I send a blood sample to the lab to measure the omega-3 and the omega-6 levels in my psychiatric patients and I find that while Walsh`s view is generally correct here in Ireland where I live the different diet gives different results and I often use omega-3 as well as omega-6 for pyrolurics.Other nurients for this condition would be zinc,B6,manganese,Vit.C,Vit. E. I have seen very good results in patients with depression, bipolar and schizophenia who have this condition,which in my experience is quite common and missed by most physicians who never heard of it and indeed who do not want to hear of it.
Posted by nolvas on December 21, 2005, at 21:35:22
In reply to Re: Also, question for Ed O'Flaherty, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on December 21, 2005, at 15:58:27
I have anxiety and agoraphobia which can be severe at times. I have many of the symptoms of pyroluria. I wonder if you can give any advice about any tests than can be done to diagnose this condition? The only test I see is kryptopyrole test but this seems problematic with regard to keeping the urine sample in good condition. I've had thyroid function test and this was normal.
Doctors seem to want to just prescribe SSRIs which don't help me. Benzos do but I can't take those everyday, what seems to help a little is GABA Relaxer which contains Niacinamide, Vitamin B6, Taurine, Inositol, Glycine and GABA.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2005, at 10:42:16
In reply to Normal level of arachidonic acid in blood?, posted by Laurie Beth on December 21, 2005, at 11:13:12
> Several months ago, I got my phospholipids tested for essential fatty acids. As a nursing mom, I'd been supplementing with 2.5 - 5 grams of EPA/DHA combined a day (at the time, I was using a 2:1 ratio of EPA/DHA).
>
> Here's what they were:
>
> GLA 0.00
> AA 6.91
> EPA 5.57
> DHA 6.02
>
> I was surprised to see my AA so low, but I have since realized that might not be so surprising. I don't eat a lot of meat, never eat organ meat, and usually get only the egg yolks that are in whatever processed food I eat. I get most of my protein from dairy and nuts (and some from whole-wheat bread). Since apparently dairy does not contain preformed arachidonic acid, maybe I don't typically get a huge amount of AA from my diet, especially relative to what I must be giving a nursing baby.
>
> I get a good about of LA, however, and I would have assumed that that was getting converted into GLA, then into DGLA, then into AA. But there's alcoholism in a first-degree relative, and apparently people with alcoholism genes may be deficient in the enzyme needed to convert LA into GLA. The lab I used doesn't measure DGLA, unfortunately, and I'm not sure if a 0.00 GLA level also means my DGLA levels are low.It seems a reasonable presumption. DGLA isn't stored and doesn't serve any functional purpose that I recall. It's an intermediate, which is incidental to the other long-chain PUFAs.
> Anyhow, seeing these numbers made me wonder if I have too low a level of DGLA AND AA, at least while consuming so much omega-3 acids, and while giving my baby these essential fatty acids through my milk.
There are variants of the delta5 and delta6 desaturase enzymes that bind omega-3s very much preferentially, compared to omega-6. The result is a disturbance in eicosanoids, also, as there is a class of those prostaglandins which arise directly from GLA.
> I am suffering from my second post-partum depression, which started about 2 months after this baby was born.
>
> Does anyone know what a normal level of phospholipid AA is? Is 6.91 too low?
>
> Thanks.Are those percentages? I have been unable to find a normalized table of long-chain PUFA content from blood phospholipids. You're low on AA and high on DHA, if the following data are "normal". Table 2.
http://ndt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/9/1388
Here's another. See Table 2, also.http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/350/6/560
You're definitely way low on AA. GLA is easy to add, though, and it would bypass whatever genetic restriction in its synthesis that may be present. You can get GLA in evening primrose, borage, and black currant seed? I'm not sure of the third one. Borage oil has the highest concentration of GLA.Lar
Posted by Laurie Beth on December 30, 2005, at 1:04:42
In reply to Re: Normal level of arachidonic acid in blood? » Laurie Beth, posted by Larry Hoover on December 22, 2005, at 10:42:16
> Are those percentages? I have been unable to find a normalized table of long-chain PUFA content from blood phospholipids. You're low on AA and high on DHA, if the following data are "normal". Table 2.
Yes, I'm pretty sure they are percentages. Thanks for the table. That's about the number for typical AA I was expecting.
> You're definitely way low on AA. GLA is easy to add, though, and it would bypass whatever genetic restriction in its synthesis that may be present. You can get GLA in evening primrose, borage, and black currant seed?Yes, I added some evening primrose oil after I got the bloodwork back. I couldn't tell any difference in my moods, but maybe I wasn't taking enough. Still, I had hoped that I'd see some change to tell me to keep going in that direction. I also switched to a 7:1 EPA:DHA formulation. Eventually maybe I'll get the energy to get my blood retested to see what the dietary changes have done.
On a completely different topic, Larry, I wonder if you saw my post below:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20051003/msgs/562777.html
and if you have any thoughts. I'm up for the second night in a row with middle-of-the-night insomnia, ~7 hours after comsuming wheat and a lot of milk products.
Posted by Laurie Beth on December 30, 2005, at 1:06:59
In reply to Re: Also, question for Ed O'Flaherty, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on December 21, 2005, at 15:58:27
This is the end of the thread.
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