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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 10:33:43
I tried a combination of fo-ti (MAO-B) inhibitor and PEA this morning. I felt well within 30 minautes.
Linkadge
Posted by KaraS on April 23, 2005, at 13:40:05
In reply to Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 10:33:43
> I tried a combination of fo-ti (MAO-B) inhibitor and PEA this morning. I felt well within 30 minautes.
>
>
> Linkadge
What did you use to provide the PEA?K
Posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 14:52:12
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!! » linkadge, posted by KaraS on April 23, 2005, at 13:40:05
PEA itself. Picked it up at health food store.
Linksdge
Posted by Sarah T. on April 24, 2005, at 0:11:37
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 14:52:12
What is Fo-Ti? You said it's an MAO inhibitor, but I've never heard of it. Is it by prescription only?
Posted by KaraS on April 24, 2005, at 0:39:00
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 14:52:12
> PEA itself. Picked it up at health food store.
>
> Linksdge
No sh*t! I've never heard of it being sold like that.k
Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2005, at 9:10:44
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!! » linkadge, posted by KaraS on April 24, 2005, at 0:39:00
Fo-Ti is a herb got it at health food store as well.
Linkadge
Posted by tendency on April 27, 2005, at 13:56:32
In reply to Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 10:33:43
> I tried a combination of fo-ti (MAO-B) inhibitor and PEA this morning. I felt well within 30 minautes.
>
>
> Linkadgeis this still working well for you link?
Posted by Declan on April 27, 2005, at 18:13:00
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!! » linkadge, posted by tendency on April 27, 2005, at 13:56:32
Was the PEA some sort of chocolate extract?
Declan
Posted by linkadge on April 27, 2005, at 21:01:35
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by Declan on April 27, 2005, at 18:13:00
Yes, when I take it. I get a very good effect. The feeling of freedom, no crazy mind noise that the SSRI's always give. I feel in controll of my body and not trapped in a dome like I do on the SSRI's. I just feel normal, and my mood all of a sudden is seemless, like it never was a hinderance.
I really don't know about the DLPA, I suppose it could be, I'll look at the bottle. Why, is this normally a pharmacudial product??!Linkadge
Posted by JayDee on April 27, 2005, at 21:29:19
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 27, 2005, at 21:01:35
DLPA? which do you have PEA or DLPA?
they are 2 different things.
Posted by linkadge on April 28, 2005, at 9:10:27
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by JayDee on April 27, 2005, at 21:29:19
Yeah, I know. In most health food stores I've only been able to find L-phenylalanine. I came across one that say on the package DL-phenylalanine.
It could be a typo ??!!
That doesn't sound right
Linkadge
Posted by teejay on April 28, 2005, at 20:35:14
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 28, 2005, at 9:10:27
Hi linkage,
I think you've got a bit confused here with two very similarly sounding chemicals (it had me going too till I did a google to sort the differences out).
Phenylalanine in both its L and DL forms is an amino acid but PEA is phenylethylamine which I think is in chocolate and gives some people the feel good factor when they eat it.
Some interesting stuff on the net if you put Phenylethylamine into google. Seems to be quite a potent and long lasting anti-depressant according to some studies and reports.
Glad its got you on the up anyway :-))
Teejay
Posted by linkadge on April 29, 2005, at 8:03:23
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!! » linkadge, posted by teejay on April 28, 2005, at 20:35:14
Cool,
I am in accordance now.
I understand that the D form of the amino acid converts to PEA more readily than does the L form?
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 2, 2005, at 0:36:33
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 27, 2005, at 21:01:35
I once went on a course of polygonum multiflorum. That's Fo Ti isn't it? It smelled unusual, a little like roast pork maybe?....its a long time ago. But I never took either DLPA or PEA with it. I didn't notice anything that I can remember from it. You still taking this? But whenever I get my dose of deprenyl and DLPA high enough to help much it disrupts my sleep.
Declan
Posted by joebob on May 2, 2005, at 12:21:35
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 23, 2005, at 14:52:12
Posted by JLxx on May 3, 2005, at 17:05:30
In reply to what brand of PEA....can't find it on the web (nm) » linkadge, posted by joebob on May 2, 2005, at 12:21:35
None of the links below are converting (?). What a drag! I put them each on a separate line so they're easier to copy/paste.
I found this, said to be PEA but it's actually derived from blue green algae apparently:
http://www.supersmart.com/dev/productdetail.php?lang=eng&id=617
This is the other product they recommend there, which is PEA, plus Mucuna pruriens extract, Bacopa monnieri, Ginkgo biloba, Siberian Ginseng:
http://www.supersmart.com/dev/productdetail.php?id=474
That is a European site apparently. According to their blurb, 10 mg of PEA is needed to relieve depression.
You can get the blue green algae called Blue Manna containing PEA as well as phycocyanin which apparently is a COX-2 inhibitor:
Blue Manna:
There's 8-12 mg per gram they say. Another site:
http://www.naturalzing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=353
One third teaspoon provides 8 mg, they say, so, 62.5 servings per container.
Ancient Sun is the company that makes it, and they also have capsules as well as bulk amounts:
http://www.ancientsunnutrition.com/
PubMed on phycocyanin COX-2 inhibitor, 4 studies listed:
There are other sources of blue green algae as well as more info on the web.
Here's an article on blue-green algae on Quakwatch:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/algae.html
Assessing Potential Health Risks from Microcystin Toxins in Blue-Green Algae Dietary Supplements
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2000/108p435-439gilroy/gilroy-full.html
"Although less is known about the possible health effects from exposure to lower doses of microcystins, there is increasing concern that chronic exposure to low levels may also pose a significant health risk. Potential tumor promotion is a primary concern...
Continuous low-level exposure to microcystins may also result in hepatic accumulation. Studies have shown that, once taken up by the liver, microcystin excretion occurs very slowly...
These results raise concerns that long-term exposure to even very low levels of microcystins may be significant, and could ultimately result in liver cancer and other liver diseases.
Although it is widely recognized that exposure to microcystins in drinking water represents a significant health risk, the potential for microcystin exposure may be substantially greater for consumers of BGA products.
A key element for ensuring the safety of BGA products is adequate product testing and batch characterization. ...
The present findings suggest that batch homogeneity cannot always be assumed, and underscore the need for adequate batch characterization. Overall, these results indicate that microcystin contamination of BGA products can be variable, and that regular monitoring, extensive testing, and thorough batch mixing is necessary to ensure the safety of BGA products. ...
For example, one reported effect of low-level exposure to microcystins is gastrointestinal (GI) disturbance (2,3,5), and GI disturbance is apparently a fairly common experience of BGA consumers. MedWatch has received several reports of nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea associated with BGA consumption (51)."
That concludes with, "assuming that these products are entirely safe may not, in fact, be a safe assumption."
This report by Health Canada says, Last updated 2003-06-25
BLUE-GREEN ALGAE (CYANOBACTERIA) AND THEIR TOXINS :
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/water/factsheets/blue_green_algae.htm
About supplements, they say,
"Health Canada is advising consumers to apply caution in their use of the products until evidence of their safety can be firmly established. In particular, adult consumers who choose to use products containing non-Spirulina blue-green algae should do so for short periods of time only. However, consumers can safely use products made only from Spirulina blue-green algae as these were found to be free of microcystins."
Apparently Ancient Sun BGA is not spirulina derived. I couldn't see any reassurances on their site about microcystins either.
Cell-tech, which is a multi-level marketing company, has a lot of commentary on criticism of blue green algae:
http://www.celltech.com/resources/info_central/response.asp
I know somebody who takes Cell-tech BGA, it cleared up her allergies after a lifetime of prescription drugs for them.
Interesting article that discusses various aspects of the controversy including that detractors say it's addictive. That suggests to me that it really does have PEA.
Blue Green Algae – Superfood or Pond Scum?
http://www.life.ca/nl/68/algae.html
And getting back to PEA, another source is some weight loss formulas, though they don't say how much PEA is in them. A common one is Xenadrine EFX:
http://www.bodybuilding-supplements-for-you.com/supplement-reviews/xenadrine-efx-review.htm
And then there's chocolate, as we know, where the problem is the sugar and fat that accompanies it. Scharffen Berger makes a variety that is 99% unsweetened:
http://www.scharffenberger.com/article_info.php?articles_id=1&template_file=chochealth.php
And then there's raw cacao beans and according to this site, "Raw Chocolate contains up to 2.2% phenylethylamine (PEA)"
http://www.americahealth.com/rawfood/specials-Chocolate.html
Another site:
http://www.rawfood.com/cgi-bin/order/index.cgi?id=122322068277-1071&d=single&item_id=0878&m=home
I saw some other references to cheese, apples and almonds being sources of PEA, but couldn't really track that down.
I think I will try the cacao beans as I like the idea of a whole food, but I may try the bluegreen algae too.
JL
Posted by Ktemene on May 3, 2005, at 19:58:16
In reply to PEA -- where to find..., posted by JLxx on May 3, 2005, at 17:05:30
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 19:55:24
In reply to Re: Fo-Ti and PEA WOW !!!, posted by linkadge on April 29, 2005, at 8:03:23
I've always wondered what would happen if one ingested alpha-methyl-dl-phenylalanine. Would it get converted to amphetamine a la phenylalanine --> phenethylamine? My source with a PhD in the subject says no, but he's like 60+ years old, so maybe he's mistaken. I do not have any evidence to the contrary though, so I tend to believe him.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 20:00:42
In reply to PEA -- where to find..., posted by JLxx on May 3, 2005, at 17:05:30
Just buy PEA HCl from a chemical supply company? Even with rediculous chemical supply house markup, it still cost me like $40 for 100g or something like that. Catalogs.google.com is a good start, and tons of them have it. Just gotta find one that will sell to you.
I am warning you guys that PEA is not benign. It is an extremely powerful endogenous neuromodulator that should be treated with respect. You can easily put yourself near psychosis by taking too much of it over a relatively short period of time. The problem is with MAO-B inhibited, it accumulates in the brain, yet you only feel its action for a short while. Thus, more is taken, and the cycle repeats. I also never found it that pleasurable for any extended period of time. For posterity, I once tried IVing 60mg of it. I got a nice rush. I did it again the next day, and felt incredibly anxious and dysphoric. It definitely is not amphetamine.
If one supplements with it and an MAO-B inhibitor, I recommend starting at 5-10mg per day and working up slowly. You can get a good antidepressant effect, I'm sure; just tread with caution.
Posted by linkadge on May 7, 2005, at 17:57:21
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » JLxx, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 20:00:42
You are certainly right about psychosis.
When I was taking parnate I was also exercising a lot (which probably let to great increases is PEA) I think I had a mild psychotic break where it seemed as if god was condeming me for everything I had ever done wrong. I felt that I HAD to confess every single little wrong I had ever done everybody (ie I had to go around to everbody and make it public to the world what I had done wrong) or I would go straight to hell.
Talk about temporal lobe activation.I felt like I had jumped into an altrenate dimention that I couldn't get out of. IT was like 24/7 god was pointing a finger right at me, and never letting it move in inch. It was so funny because after I discontinued it I was quite literally EUPHORIC for a month. I've heard that happening with MAOIs. I was just so relieved that I wasn't going to hell, that I could't give a darn what happened during the day.
It was the best antidepressant I ever tried, perhaps I would consider it the "only" antidepressant I had ever tried, but it certainly had the ability to mess with your mind, I can tell you that much.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 0:19:35
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find..., posted by linkadge on May 7, 2005, at 17:57:21
Hi, Linkage,
I had a similar experience with Parnate. That is the only time in my life that I had what was probably "psychosis." I didn't take PEA, but I exercised a lot. I've communicated with several other people who've had similar reactions on Parnate, and nearly all found their thoughts disturbing enough to discontinue Parnate. I've been thinking about trying Selegiline if it ever comes out in the patch form, but I'm worried that I might have more disordered thinking. Do you know whether Selegiline is likely cause the same problems that Parnate caused?
Posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:08:18
In reply to Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 0:19:35
Hi Sarah
I've taken selegeline/deprenyl in low doses (< 2 mg/d) for years. You made me wonder a bit. Why am I so screwy etc?
Declan
Posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 1:31:10
In reply to Re: Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts, posted by Declan on May 8, 2005, at 1:08:18
Declan,
Are you being serious? When you say "screwy," what do you mean? Are you joking, or are your thoughts "disordered" at times, to the point that it worries you, your family or your doctor?
Posted by linkadge on May 8, 2005, at 5:11:23
In reply to Parnate, PEA bizarre thoughts » linkadge, posted by Sarah T. on May 8, 2005, at 0:19:35
Wow!!!! that is really interesting that you, and people you know had a similar reaction.
I think it has to do with parnate's enormously powerful dopaminergic activity.
It is a strong MAO-B inhibitor, AND it is also a powerful stimulant.
I can only describe this drug as being DEEP.
It is probably VERY active in the lower brainstem.I call it a very powerful antidepressant because it sure got my mind off wanting to die. Infact, it was almost this insane desire to live that made me psycotic.
All of a sudden it came into my mind that I the only way I could rid myself of this "god pointing the finger at me" was to live an exceedingly pure life. I had *NO ABILITY* to excuse myself of the wrong things I had done. It was like I jumped into this world of HYPER-REALITY. Coming from a dancy pracny SSRI world, this was an enormous transition.
SSRI's make you kind of feel that everything is subjective, and kind of artificial. You know that feeling that right and wrong is just in the way you look at it.
But on Parnate. Boy, everything was REAL AS HELL.
Right and wrong was as clear as black and white. There was NO middle ground.There was a sincerity to everything. You couldn't shrug off the words of the minister at church. If you saw a commercial on TV for starving kids in africa - you HAD to do someting about it - if you didn't, the rest of your life would HALT. I was afraid that people would find out about my past, although I wasn't quite sure what it was that I had done so wrong. It was very SCARRY. There is even a part of me now that has a hard time chalking the experience up to a drug. The kind of drug that leaves you in some ways begging to be on antipsychotics and lithium for the rest of your natural life. YOu know, begging for apathy.
I would have liked to have stayed on a lower dose with perhaps a bit of zyprexa. Because asside from it putting me on the brink of psychosis, it also created a profound sence of self. I tremendously enjoyed playing the piano, riding my bike, out with friends, swimming, having a horror film scare the hell out of you, running, I simply wanted to live an a way that I cannot discribe now. I remember watching Star Wars on parnate. I had seen the movie thousands of times, but it was like I was waching the movie again for the first time. Time and space became seemless, and I had that deep/wonderfull feeling I can only call "eternity". My vision seemed to extend into infinity. Something that users of high dose amphetamines report.
I was never on psyhco babble during that time cause quite frankly I was too busy Living.
This state of mind perhaps serves a purpose at some point in ones life. But certainly not something anyone can handle on a daily basis.
I can definately see how a connection was made between paranoid schisohprenia and high biological levels of PEA.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't psychadellics like mescaline related in some way to PEA??
But, surprisingly, I long since slipped back into apathy, and anhedonia.
Too little dopamine makes you feel you have no importance. Too much dopamine makes you feel like to have too much/universal. I call it a "cosmic responsability".Parnate was the only antidepressant that had me thinking about meeting a girl, getting married one day, having children etc.
Now I couldn't give a fiddler's f*rt. Anything like that: movies, swimming, running, friends,
biking, hiking, and playing the paino, women, etc, just seem like a *big* waste of time.
Linkadge
Posted by JLx on May 8, 2005, at 11:25:55
In reply to Re: PEA -- where to find... » JLxx, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 5, 2005, at 20:00:42
> Just buy PEA HCl from a chemical supply company? Even with rediculous chemical supply house markup, it still cost me like $40 for 100g or something like that. Catalogs.google.com is a good start, and tons of them have it. Just gotta find one that will sell to you.
>
> I am warning you guys that PEA is not benign. It is an extremely powerful endogenous neuromodulator that should be treated with respect. You can easily put yourself near psychosis by taking too much of it over a relatively short period of time. The problem is with MAO-B inhibited, it accumulates in the brain, yet you only feel its action for a short while. Thus, more is taken, and the cycle repeats. I also never found it that pleasurable for any extended period of time. For posterity, I once tried IVing 60mg of it. I got a nice rush. I did it again the next day, and felt incredibly anxious and dysphoric. It definitely is not amphetamine.
>
> If one supplements with it and an MAO-B inhibitor, I recommend starting at 5-10mg per day and working up slowly. You can get a good antidepressant effect, I'm sure; just tread with caution.I have no desire to get high, and I certainly don't want to become psychotic. I've never taken an MAOI drug and I don't care to but I'm curious about PEA. I hurt my foot last summer and couldn't do my usual fitness walking and really noticed my depression increased. And God knows, I've loved chocolate all my life, especially in times of stress when it really does make me feel better. But the trouble there of course is the fat and sugar.
You say, "I recommend starting at 5-10mg per day and working up slowly." Why work up at all? And to what?
This 1994 article, http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1430/is_n11_v16/ai_15654206 quotes a doctor doing animal PEA research, "as PEA is administered the animals need less, not more."
I was just reading a post about the extremely short half life of PEA, and that is why people are taking selegeline with DLPA, to prolong it. Ok, but what is the difference between increasing PEA through exercise? Exercise relieves depression not just for a few minutes, but overall. Not for everyone, I know, but it seems to for me.
So could there be a anti-depressive benefit of taking blue green algae or raw chocolate in the amount to provide approx 10 mg of PEA a day? And what could be the downside?
JL
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