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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 24, 2005, at 19:35:31
At least I assume it's the fish oil?
Bad news is thyroid's up to five-ish. Time to adjust the Synthroid.
gg
Posted by KaraS on February 24, 2005, at 23:59:41
In reply to Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil!, posted by gardenergirl on February 24, 2005, at 19:35:31
> At least I assume it's the fish oil?
>
> Bad news is thyroid's up to five-ish. Time to adjust the Synthroid.
>
> gg
Yay! That's really good news.Have you ever tried Armour or other natural thyroid hormone? I think I do better on the Armour than on the synthetic T4. Maybe you can't take that with an MAOI though...
Posted by tealady on February 25, 2005, at 2:50:32
In reply to Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil!, posted by gardenergirl on February 24, 2005, at 19:35:31
> At least I assume it's the fish oil?
>
> Bad news is thyroid's up to five-ish. Time to adjust the Synthroid.
>
> gg
Hi,
If you don't mind my asking what are your before and after cholesterol levels with the fish oil (if known)..and HDL, LDL etc.too if known
looking for a way for my Dad to get off Zocor etc.
His hands are peeling thick hard skin and really itchy and inflammed new skin below and I think it's a side effect of Zocor,betaloc,Coversyl for cholesterol and apparently blood pressure.
Also thyroid meds (armour) reduced my cholesterol from 7.0(divide by 0.0259 for US units:-), I'm lazy) to 5.7., so far. I'm adding in T4 now so no idea what will happen regarding cholesterol, but I hope(assume) it falls a bit further.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/clinical_data.htmlJan
Posted by gardenergirl on February 25, 2005, at 8:13:00
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » gardenergirl, posted by KaraS on February 24, 2005, at 23:59:41
I haven't tried Armour, although I was interested in it. My PCP and I haven't talked about it, but my pdoc said she thought it was less consistent than the synthetics. I don't think it's a problem with MAOI's, though. What are your thoughts about it's consistency. Notice any fluctuations in how you feel?
I did take Cytomel with Synthroid for a time, but my PCP over-prescribed it, and I got hyperthyroid. (I knew he should have cut the synthroid down, but does he listen to me? No...)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 25, 2005, at 8:32:00
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » gardenergirl, posted by tealady on February 25, 2005, at 2:50:32
> If you don't mind my asking what are your before and after cholesterol levels with the fish oil (if known)..and HDL, LDL etc.too if known
Let's see...in August 04
Serum Cholesterol was 164 (This was when I was still on Cytomel, and it made me hyperthyroid, so it's kind of falsely lower than usual for me. It's been as high as 212, when they tried to put me on Zocor...HELLO! I am of child-bearing age, not preventing pregnancy, and it's Pregnancy Category X???)
HDL was 52
Triglyceride was 202 (Yuck!)
LDL was 72Now:Cholesterol is 185
HDL is 61 (okay, a slight increase...I forget..which is the good one?)
Triglyceride is 142 (woo hoo!)
LDL is 96 (again..which is supposed to be higher?)Your dad's condition sounds awful. Is there another anti-cholesterol he could take that would not cause the skin issue? Plus, I only take two 1000 mg capsules of fish oil a day. I don't remember exactly why, but I didn't feel as good when I took 3 or 4. But I have a pretty sensitive system.
Has your dad seen a dermatologist for his skin? I know I get some contact dermatitis which is hard to get rid of, and my derm gave me a pretty cool cream. Tacrolimus topical, I think. I've also used Elidel with some luck, but it's a small area. I've heard that one can kind of burn.
Good luck with the T4. Let me know how it goes. I'm hoping when I get my TSH back to 2ish, I might lose a pound or two (or 40!, ha ha) :)
Actually, what do you think I should ask for? My TSH is 5.12 (ref range 0.35-5.50). Free T4 is 1.2 (ref range 0.9-1.8). And T4, total is 7.9 (ref range 4.5-10.9). From what I can gather, it seems like T4 is okay for me? Stick with Levoxythyrine and just increase? Go back to some Lev. and some Cytomel? Try Armour?
Thanks for your thoughts and good luck with your Dad.
gg
Posted by KaraS on February 25, 2005, at 15:16:51
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » KaraS, posted by gardenergirl on February 25, 2005, at 8:13:00
> I haven't tried Armour, although I was interested in it. My PCP and I haven't talked about it, but my pdoc said she thought it was less consistent than the synthetics. I don't think it's a problem with MAOI's, though. What are your thoughts about it's consistency. Notice any fluctuations in how you feel?
>
> I did take Cytomel with Synthroid for a time, but my PCP over-prescribed it, and I got hyperthyroid. (I knew he should have cut the synthroid down, but does he listen to me? No...)
>
> gg
I haven't noticed any inconsistency problems with Armour. That's a myth put out by the company that makes Synthroid. The facts are that Armour is more consistent. If you do some reading on Mary Shomon's thyroid site at about.com, she has articles there about the problems with Synthroid and Levoxyl etc. When the government changed the regulations/standards on the thryoid hormones, Synthroid was one of the last preparations to qualify. There have been several recalls of Synthroid and Levoxyl due to inconsistency. The company that makes Synthroid donates to medical schools and the med students are taught that it's the best. They're never told about the problems with it. I've been so lazy these days but if I can get the motivation I will look for the links for you later and post them.I would be more concerned about Armour reacting badly with an MAOI. I don't know if there is any reason to be concerned - it's just a gut reaction.
I'm actually taking a generic T4 preparation right now because I haven't had the money to see a doctor who would prescribe the Armour. It works too but I think the Armour works a bit better.
K
Posted by Phillipa on February 25, 2005, at 20:08:33
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » gardenergirl, posted by KaraS on February 25, 2005, at 15:16:51
I noticed that my omega 3 fish oil capsules are labled l000mg, and actually only contain about l50mg of it. Have you had the same thing? Bought 2 different kinds, and when read the label on back, they're both the same. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by tealady on February 25, 2005, at 20:23:30
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » gardenergirl, posted by KaraS on February 25, 2005, at 15:16:51
> > I haven't tried Armour, although I was interested in it. My PCP and I haven't talked about it, but my pdoc said she thought it was less consistent than the synthetics. I don't think it's a problem with MAOI's, though. What are your thoughts about it's consistency. Notice any fluctuations in how you feel?
HI gg,
Consistency is fine for me if chemist mixes it up enough (about 10 times as long as he thinks he should I've found!)..but then I'm on compounded THYROID, not the Armour tablets..not available in Oz. Brand name Armour tablets appear more consistent than T4, with recalls in the US on some T4 drugs for inconsistency..it's a nasty rumour, supposedly put out but the T4 drug marketers. I agree ,with Kara, look at Mary Shomon's site for the articles on this.
That said in your body T4 is sometimes functions more "consistent" than Armour in a lot of people, probably due to the fact that Armour by itself has too low a level of T4 for most of us and as T4 is kinda the thyroid hormone store.
Any extra stress,like a cold day, means we have not enough reserve to call on, if your Ft4 levels are lowish. On Armour alone my Ft4 levels sat at the low normal border level. This is fairly typical. Some can cope by increasing their Armour, but for many like me it puts their Ft3 too high and they experience hyper symptoms.
Armour is really dessicated pig's thyroid. Over 100 years ago low thyroid was treated by consuming pig's thyroids, so its been around for way longer than the synthetics.
Human thyroids make a ratio of T4:T3 roughly equal to taking a "numerically " equal dose of t4 and Armour
like 60mgArmour +60mcgT4
or 75mgArmour and 75mcgT4.
This gives a real T4:T3 ratio of about 93:7 about a human equivalent.
So a human equivalent of T4 and T3 would be around 100mgT4, 7.5mcgT3. This is just replacing in the proportion that our own thyroids make.Looking at your test results , I'd say you need some more T4 to bring your TSH down to level between 1 and 2. What dose are you on now..and what dose were you on when you went hyper?
It also depends on your symptoms. If you have depression, I'd probably start aim for a "human thyroid" ratio of T4 and T3 and enough to bring your TSH between 1 and 1.5 and see how you feel then.Sorry no idea what you are on but my guess is a 25mcg T4 increase at least is needed together with maybe 7.5mcg cytomel for starters depending on how much T4 you are on now.
Then retest in 6 weeks TSH, FT3, Ft4 and see where you are at then.
(Above said as I know your age range from earlier when you went hyper, please noone else follow this especially if older or hypo for a long time or just starting meds...)> >
> > I did take Cytomel with Synthroid for a time, but my PCP over-prescribed it, and I got hyperthyroid. (I knew he should have cut the synthroid down, but does he listen to me? No...)
> >
> > gg
>
>
Posted by KaraS on February 25, 2005, at 22:15:58
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil!, posted by Phillipa on February 25, 2005, at 20:08:33
> I noticed that my omega 3 fish oil capsules are labled l000mg, and actually only contain about l50mg of it. Have you had the same thing? Bought 2 different kinds, and when read the label on back, they're both the same. Fondly, Phillipa
I don't know about your brands but in mine there is 1065 mg. of fish oil concentrate. Of that 630 mg. is EPA and DHA. What does it say on yours for the rest of the 850 mg.?
Posted by gardenergirl on February 26, 2005, at 23:40:21
In reply to Cholesterol down! Was it fish oil or thyroid meds?, posted by tealady on February 25, 2005, at 20:23:30
I started Cytomel at 25 mcg at age 38 while also taking the 50 mcg of Synthroid I had been for months. At the time, I was not high in TSH, I just wanted to try augmenting my MAOI with Cytomel. I believe my doc should have lowered my Synthroid when he added the Cytomel. If he had, perhaps I would not have gone hyper. Or at least not as much.
So at this point, I do think adding Cytomel again at 7.5 makes some sense. I bet he will just want to raise the Synthroid. That is if he believes me that 5.12 is too high of a TSH.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 1, 2005, at 7:34:54
In reply to Re: Cholesterol down! Was it fish oil or thyroid meds? » tealady, posted by gardenergirl on February 26, 2005, at 23:40:21
And yes, he wanted to raise the Synthroid to 75. But he was open to suggestions. We'll see how it goes.
gg
Posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 14:00:14
In reply to Starting Armour today at 90 mg, posted by gardenergirl on March 1, 2005, at 7:34:54
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 2, 2005, at 15:14:48
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil!, posted by Phillipa on February 25, 2005, at 20:08:33
> I noticed that my omega 3 fish oil capsules are labled l000mg, and actually only contain about l50mg of it. Have you had the same thing? Bought 2 different kinds, and when read the label on back, they're both the same. Fondly, Phillipa
"Standard" fish oil usually contains 180 mg EPA and 120 mg DHA per 1000 mg, i.e. a total of 300 mg long-chain omega-3s per 1000 mg capsule. Some brands have higher concentrations, achieved at a greater expense per capsule.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2005, at 16:27:26
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on March 2, 2005, at 15:14:48
Lar, Is that an adequate doseage, or is there the name of a superior supplement. Thanks, Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on March 3, 2005, at 9:07:23
In reply to Re: Cholesterol is down! Yeah fish oil! » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on March 2, 2005, at 16:27:26
Yuck!
But so far so good.
gg
Posted by KaraS on March 3, 2005, at 11:10:37
In reply to No one told me Armour would smell this bad!, posted by gardenergirl on March 3, 2005, at 9:07:23
> Yuck!
> But so far so good.
> gg
Yeah, it is kind of yucky smelling but you'll get used to it (and you'll try not to smell it whenever possible).k
Posted by gardenergirl on March 4, 2005, at 23:47:07
In reply to Re: No one told me Armour would smell this bad! » gardenergirl, posted by KaraS on March 3, 2005, at 11:10:37
Okay, two doses of 90mg of Armour, and I'm already feeling ramped up, and I've already got that frontal headache.
I checked with the pharmacy, and they don't recommend cutting it. Also, 90mg of Armour may be equivalent to more than 150mg of Synthroid. I was only on 50mg when I had the last labs drawn. No wonder!
I think I'm going back to Synthroid, and maybe going to 75mg on my own until I can see my doc. I'm going out of town today, though so I don't want to be messed up and in another city.
Darn it! This is the second time he's messed up my thyroid dose by going too high.
gg
Posted by KaraS on March 5, 2005, at 1:37:02
In reply to Yuck, it's too much already, posted by gardenergirl on March 4, 2005, at 23:47:07
> Okay, two doses of 90mg of Armour, and I'm already feeling ramped up, and I've already got that frontal headache.
>
> I checked with the pharmacy, and they don't recommend cutting it. Also, 90mg of Armour may be equivalent to more than 150mg of Synthroid. I was only on 50mg when I had the last labs drawn. No wonder!
>> I think I'm going back to Synthroid, and maybe going to 75mg on my own until I can see my doc. I'm going out of town today, though so I don't want to be messed up and in another city.
>
> Darn it! This is the second time he's messed up my thyroid dose by going too high.
>
> gg
Yeah, according to the chart on the website of the company that makes Armour, that is the equivalent dosage. No wonder you're so ramped up is right! So many doctors don't know how to use Armour. I don't know why the pharmacy doesn't recommend cutting the pills. Did they give you a reason? I've cut Armour pills before without a problem.Hope you feel better soon on the Synthroid. I don't blame you for going back to what's comfortable - especially while you're out of town.
Take care,
Kara
Posted by tealady on March 5, 2005, at 2:33:16
In reply to Yuck, it's too much already, posted by gardenergirl on March 4, 2005, at 23:47:07
> Okay, two doses of 90mg of Armour, and I'm already feeling ramped up, and I've already got that frontal headache.
>
> I checked with the pharmacy, and they don't recommend cutting it. Also, 90mg of Armour may be equivalent to more than 150mg of Synthroid. I was only on 50mg when I had the last labs drawn. No wonder!
>
sorry. I should have said something...I knew that was the supposed equivalent..but the I thought you'd recognise the headache anyway if it was too high a level of T3 for you...:-))
90mg is a pretty standard dose though, so I wasn't too concerned about danger
and yes the supposed equivalent is 150mg..but it doesn't really hold exactly in individuals and I hate to interfere with docs prescriptions..unless I think they are dangerous, when I can't help commenting at least..like I've done b4 , sigh.
besides I'm training myself to stop panicing about posts :-))BTW 90mg would give me a T3 headache too.
If I was you..I'd give 75mcg T4 and 7.5Mcg a go for starters(with the thought of maybe going up to 100mcgT4 and 7.5mcg T3 once your body is used to it and you've retested in 6 weeks with TSH, FT3, FT4..all of those are needed for a good decision on where to go, not total T4 or TotalT3)OR if you really want to try Armour..start with 30mg or 45mg Armour(whatever is easier to cut your tablet into) and 50mcgT4(if that's the amount of t4 you were on in the last blood tests, then retest in 6 weeks and go from there.
Thousands of people seem to successfully cut their Armour tablets up BTW.(chemist is wrong there).
> I think I'm going back to Synthroid, and maybe going to 75mg on my own until I can see my doc. I'm going out of town today, though so I don't want to be messed up and in another city.well 75mcg will be an improvement on 50mcgT4. Your doc seems to make the mistake that many docs do thinking T4 and T3 are the same strength wise..when really T3 is 4 times the T4 strength equivalent.(theoretically) At least its a reasonable starting guide.
>
> Darn it! This is the second time he's messed up my thyroid dose by going too high.
>yeah, I suspected as much..with Armour though you may eventually reach that dose ..as somehow a lot of people's bodies eventual get used to it. Mine didn't though.
I need about 125-135mcgT4 equivalence..but really about 45mg armour and more T4..not sure how much as yet..and I've been adjusting for 3.5years now...
at present I'm on about 45mgArmour and 75mcg T4.(I think)..I have a strange combo of capsule mixtures at home at present..you wouldn't want to know..
I do know 65mgArmour(1 grain) with 60mcgT4 is to high for me though..but we are all differentI think I'm best around 3/4grain Armour (approx 45mg Armour) ..so for me anyway I would end up on 1/2 of one of those tablets of armour I suspect as well as 50 to 75mcg of T4 on top of that! But most people have to work up to their final dose...unless their bodies used to thyroid hormones, or ..well too many exceptions.
Hope this helps as some guide,
Jan
PS. can look up a link if you want a calculator for this.
I started with excel spreadsheets but another wonderful girl put up calculators on the thyroid forum for everyone to use based on the excel spreadsheets (a great idea for adjusting guides for starters, then let your body and tests guide you)..you wouldn't believe the no of docs who appear to be not aware of strength equivalences, or many the don't think the impact is so great..
anyway..remember to take some magnesium to help in the short term
This is the end of the thread.
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